EE's: Where Are You? Solution for Voltage Surges in an Ungrounded Building??

Lucas61

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I live in San Carlos. The entire building is ungrounded. I have investigated investing in grounding to the breaker box and installing grounding wires to all the outlets. But this ain't happenin'. The perimeter of the entire building is surrounded by rooves or cement slabs: (1) First, I'd have to find out the owner of an adjacent property, (2) Then get permission to break up cement to find ground. Good luck with this!

I'm assuming that surge protectors are 100% useless without grounding but is this correct? Are they partially useful?

So far a computer and a Samsung television have been damaged (latter) or destroyed (former). I'm building a next generation computer for about USD $1000. I'd sure like protection when the next voltage spike occurs (puntos de voltaje).

This is where the EE's come in! Is there any device, either a device for a particular piece of equipment, or any change that could be made in the breaker box to protect sensitive electronics from surges ???
 

Cdn_Gringo

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I'm not an expert at the breaker box but anything in your unit that you plug in to eliminate a surge needs somewhere to send that excess current and that would be to a ground wire. A UPS or standard plugin surge protector won't work without a ground.

You can trick a device into thinking there is a ground but the first time that devices tries to shunt current it'll fry itself and whatever is plugged into it.

It may not be the first rule of electricity distribution but it is certainly in the top three...all installations *must* be grounded.

If you value your stuff and potentially your life, and can't fix the problem, time to move. I rewired my first house in this country because it wasn't grounded and a multitude of other issues such that the electrical outlets were smoldering and 110V was being sent down the cable TV coax cable. It would have been cheaper to move but I wasn't prepared to do that a mere three months after arriving here. Getting shocked every time I touched something or the TV flickering when I turned on the lights grows old fast as does replacing things that burn out. So I fixed the house instead. My second house was grounded - one of the first things I checked when looking at the place.

If you can't install a ground, then an experienced electrician will have to bond your panel to something that is grounded - not allowed back home but a workable solution here where there are no rules.
 

jahjahwarrior

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You just need a small hole in the slab to pound in a 8' copper pipe, you don't have to tear it all up.
 

Cdn_Gringo

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The effectiveness of the ground rod is dependent on the soil conditions where it is placed. Sand for example is not a very good conductor of electricity so sandy soil is not idea. Better than nothing but may or may not be able to dissipate high voltages such as lightning strike. I don't know for sure but suspect caliche is an even worse conductor.

Ideally the Ede's would have a ground installed at each transformer that the homeowner could make use of, but they don't usually which is how we get into this mess. Installation practices vary greatly from company to company and between every Juan and Pablo with a set of wire cutters and a screwdriver.

If the houses here were not made of concrete many of them would burn to the ground <pun intended>

Understanding, grounding, earthing and bonding are tough concepts to grasp but each has their own place in a safe electrical distribution system. When protecting expensive equipment and safety for people, it's best not to do this yourself or hire just any old Juan who doesn't completely understand what they're doing. If it's not done right, you can still fry your stuff or yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLW_7TPf310
 

Olly

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Lucas61,
Can you provide a bit more information ? What did the computer die from ? Power unit blown or mother Board? Same with the TV - what did the repair guy say the problem was ?
Also do you have an Invertor or use UPS for your computer? Do you have 110 or 220 at the breaker box load centre ? Is it a GE type Load Centre.
Do you get any other effects like flickering lights or sudden brightening of incandescent lights?

Hope you can give a little more information !

Olly and the Team
 

windeguy

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While I am an EE, I am not an expert in AC power. During my recent reading I have seen comments that some surge protectors protect against surges between the hot and neutral lines (without a ground). So some surge protectors may help even if there is no ground.

Keep in mind that surge protectors are not necessarily built to protect from multiple surges. If you have more than one surge, the surge protector's devices may be damaged and you will need to replace it in order to continue protecting your equipment.

I would call companies that make such devices, find out about how much they can protect you in a system without a ground, and also ask how many surges they will block. Some protectors may have an indicator light showing they need to be replaced since they can no longer protect you.

An aside. When I spoke to Trace (then Xantrex and now yet another company), they told me that the DR was their Viet Nam for battle testing inverters. The Trace DR series did indeed refer to the Dominican Republic. If it could work here and survive, it could work anywhere. The point is you want a superior product to work properly.
 

lifeisgreat

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Run your computer on battery with inverter(not inverter charger combo) and separate charger ...
 

Olly

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Hi Lucas61,
Pity you did not answer my questions in Post # 6 as I was trying to find out your real problem.

There have been a number of threads on DR1 about this topic which you might like to look at:

https://dr1.com/forums/showthread.php/82488-Spike-protection-for-electrical-items

www.dr1.com/forums/living/85843-transcient-voltage-protection.html

But from what you have said and nobody has answered are surge protection devices effective in an ungrounded environment. The answer is yes!

Here are some suggestions for your situation as I understand your original post.

For your computer put in a UPS such as Omega 650 or 1000 from the outlet to your computer. These have both surge/spike /over voltage and low volts protection The spike suppression is about 250 joules which is not bad for here. No ground needed.

For your TV fit an APC Tripp-lite Voltage Regulator unit about 1000 VA as a voltage regulator and spike suppressor. Has about 200 Joules which is not bad . Does not require a ground.

Fit a GE THQLSURGE directly into any GE Load centre. It is so easy to fit and does not require a “ground” and give you a huge amount of protection .

It you look at the cost : 1) About 1800 RD$ for UPS, 2) About 1300 RD$ from PriceMart for Tripp- lite , 3)THQLSURGE - about US$180 from USA and you need to get from USA and ship here!


With the uestion I asked in #6 I was trying to establish exactly what your problem is - but alas bo response!

HTH

Olly ( the EE) and the Team
 

Cdn_Gringo

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My UPS will not turn on without a ground or if it detects a fault on the circuit. Other models may not be as picky.
 

Olly

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Cpt-Gringo , You are so right! Most of the North American ones like APC don't function well here which is why I was specific with the brand Omega - made for the DR in the DR.
Olly and the Team
 

Lucas61

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Jun 13, 2014
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Lucas61,
Can you provide a bit more information ? What did the computer die from ? Power unit blown or mother Board? Same with the TV - what did the repair guy say the problem was ?
Also do you have an Invertor or use UPS for your computer? Do you have 110 or 220 at the breaker box load centre ? Is it a GE type Load Centre.
Do you get any other effects like flickering lights or sudden brightening of incandescent lights? What is a GE type load center? Sometimes a fan will accelerate. I once used an Omega Tech UPS with surge protection for my computer and this is doable. I can do this again. THE QUESTION: WILL A SURGE SUPPRESSOR PROVIDE PROTECTION WITHOUT GROUND ???? Some posting here are answering in the affirmative but others are saying that the only way to dispense with a surge is via ground. Can you clarify this contradiction?? The power in a surge has to go somewhere. I wouldn't mind if it destroyed the surge suppressor rather than my equipment IF it can do that. . .

Hope you can give a little more information !

Olly and the Team

When a computer suffers electrical damage, the only way to check the integrity of the processor, power supply, ssd, RAM, and motherboard is to swap out known good parts. Unfortunately, this was not possible and the system, HP, cost RD 3000, used, so I bought another . . . my girlfriend tells me she viewed the television at the shop and it's working properly now, cost about RD 1400 to repair, hasn't been picked up yet, no money. It's not lost on me that my answers are sorry, sorry, sorry, but I want to get back to you and not let you think that I'm ignoring your post. Continuing, no inverter (no water running water either!) and an AC/DC inverter is not in the cards. Don't know voltage at breaker box. If I open it, will it be evident?
 

Lucas61

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OP continuing, message truncated. In the past I have used an Omega Tech UPS and surge suppressor. This is doable again. Others posting here say that a surge suppressor will provide protection without ground. Others suggest that only a grounded system is capable of shunting a surge to ground. Can you claryify this contradiction? It seems to me that a surge suppressor in an ungrounded system must either work or not work or work a little. There has to be an answer to the question. Also, if the suppressor is measured in joules, doesn't this imply the capacity for the device to absorb a shock before the voltage is grounded?? Not sure about this.
 

Lucas61

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OP, continuing: The only evidence I have of a voltage spike is a loud Pop! or a fan accelerating or damaged equipment. It's clear that the voltage here sometimes modulates. Also the electricity goes off about three times per week. When it comes on, does it ramp up smoothly or is there a spike? Not sure.
 

Cdn_Gringo

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Olly, do you happen to know a website where I can get more info on this Dominican marvel? Google is giving me everything but...

Thx.
 

windeguy

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Cpt-Gringo , You are so right! Most of the North American ones like APC don't function well here which is why I was specific with the brand Omega - made for the DR in the DR.
Olly and the Team

Exactly. I brought one in once in the US and learned how useless it was here.

As others have mentioned and so did I, some surge protectors reportedly can work without a ground. Talk to someone that knows about which exact ones will work here. I don't have that information. Nor do I use surge protectors at my location.
 

SKY

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Knowing less than nothing about surge protectors I have used them. One large power surge took out the surge protector but nothing attached to it. So they may do some good here. It was a good one I bought in the US, don't remember the brand though.
 

bigbird

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Exactly. I brought one in once in the US and learned how useless it was here.

As others have mentioned and so did I, some surge protectors reportedly can work without a ground. Talk to someone that knows about which exact ones will work here. I don't have that information. Nor do I use surge protectors at my location.

American UPS will work fine in the DR provided you have "good" electrical power source. My understanding they won't work if you are using an inversor type setup. I currently have two APC units in use and they both work fine. The thing is I have so called 24/7 electric and the tower i live in has a backup generator. I am NEVER without electrical power for more than twenty seconds.

I use the UPS for my router, TV and connected electronics. I just didn't like the occasional power off/on twenty second shutdowns.

The UPS provides surge protection but as a second safeguard i also use a surge protector strip after the UPS. Overkill? I think not.
 

Lucas61

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If you can't install a ground, then an experienced electrician will have to bond your panel to something that is grounded - not allowed back home but a workable solution here where there are no rules.

Yes, this is an option but what? Not only do we not have copper pipes to ground but PVC. And not only that but no running water and no tenaco (But great location, cool breezes on the fourth floor and RD 7,500 per month for a two bedroom). Some have suggested rebar in the wall but who knows if it goes to ground?

The biggest problem with electrical issues is figuring out what is true and what is false, and how do you confirm that? In this very thread, you say that if a surge suppressor is not grounded, it will not function because there is no place to shunt the excess voltage (although you suggest that the device might absorb the charge and be damaged and therefore be a stand-in for the more expensive device it is connected to). Others, in this same thread state, for example, that a UPS with a suppressor (e.g. OmegaTech) will function without ground. So the information is contradictory and it is impossible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, what is true or false. This same fact--contradictory information--is apparent when you google electronics questions such as this. You'd think that after 100 years, or so, of being electrified, that answers to questions such as these would be standard and self-evident. I'll probably end up buying an OmegaTech UPS--they're cheap--but I will just have to live with doubts as to whether it offers protection. Another possibility is to contact tech support for the manufacturers of these devices. But then you have the question of whether they know the truth or even whether they will lie in order to make a sale . . .