QUIEN or QUE?

D

dv8

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Sep 27, 2006
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from an article in el caribe today:
Según informes, Rodríguez Camacho era hijo de Alfredo Rodríguez (Niño Pata Corta), un reconocido narcotraficante de la provincia que fue ejecutado en 2010 por uno de sus hombres, en la carretera Cruce de Pavón, el municipio Guaymate.

is it only me or the correct way would be to say: "QUIEN fue ejecutado"?
i see QUE used in similar way all the time when i continue to use QUIEN in such langage structures when it's clear that the word refers to a person and not to the object or action. am i the one who's crazy here?
 
M

Marianopolita

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Fulano2 said:
Dont you know that? Ok.
It is referring to a person not an object or animal.
Click to expand...

Yes, I do but that is not the reason why it is not used in that phrase which is what the OP asked.


You say it should be quien but que is used so explain why then. That will help the OP and the newspaper example is correct.


-MP.
 
Fulano2

Fulano2

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dv8 said:
from an article in el caribe today:
Según informes, Rodríguez Camacho era hijo de Alfredo Rodríguez (Niño Pata Corta), un reconocido narcotraficante de la provincia que fue ejecutado en 2010 por uno de sus hombres, en la carretera Cruce de Pavón, el municipio Guaymate.

is it only me or the correct way would be to say: "QUIEN fue ejecutado"?
i see QUE used in similar way all the time when i continue to use QUIEN in such langage structures when it's clear that the word refers to a person and not to the object or action. am i the one who's crazy here?
Click to expand...
The problem might be that they speak their article not write them, because Dominicans dont like writing in general. So they use que in their daily talk and this is the result.
 
D

dv8

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interestingly enough miesposo says that QUE is correct but cannot explain it (he's the worst teacher i have ever seen). from what i could understand he says that "QUE fue ejecutado" refers to the action of being killed rather than to the person being killed?

another article about the same crime (two men being killed by the police, one of them a son of narco who was executed by his own men), this time from DL says:
Hombres que mataron en La Romana pertenecían a banda dirigida por narco Pascual Cabrera desde la cárcel.
again, i think it should be "quiénes mataron".
 
D

dv8

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Fulano2 said:
The problem might be that they speak their article not write them, because Dominicans dont like writing in general. So they use que in their daily talk and this is the result.
Click to expand...

if it was a whatsap chat or a letrero on a barrio business - yes. but these examples come from newspapers. maybe the journalism in DR is not the best but these folks write as a profession, every single day.
 
Fulano2

Fulano2

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I asked my wife and she was doubting about it but had to conclude after reading a couple of times it should be quien. But that would sound archaic to her.
 
M

Matilda

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El pronombre "que" se usa para objetos o personas en el 90% de los casos. Para personas, también se puede usar "quien", pero solo en situaciones muy formales, como pronombre interrogativo (quién) o cuando no hay antecedente expreso, en cuyo caso se puede usar "el/la que" o "quien". Cuando hay un antecedente, "quien" suena excesivamente formal, pero cuando no lo hay, suena más natural (por ej., "quien no quiera venir, que no venga" suena bien, pero "la persona quien no quiera venir, que no venga" no.

Matilda
 
M

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
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dv8 said:
from an article in el caribe today:
Según informes, Rodríguez Camacho era hijo de Alfredo Rodríguez (Niño Pata Corta), un reconocido narcotraficante de la provincia que fue ejecutado en 2010 por uno de sus hombres, en la carretera Cruce de Pavón, el municipio Guaymate.

is it only me or the correct way would be to say: "QUIEN fue ejecutado"?
i see QUE used in similar way all the time when i continue to use QUIEN in such langage structures when it's clear that the word refers to a person and not to the object or action. am i the one who's crazy here?
Click to expand...



dv8 here is my explanation:


From a grammatical perspective the topic is relative pronouns. Que and quien are both relative pronouns and have distinct functions in a sentence.


Que can refer to people, things, objects, ideas etc.


Quien can only be used to refer to people


The noun that precedes the relative pronoun is call the antecedent in grammar (English as well as Spanish). It plays a role and where it is positioned in the phrase can determine usage.


However, since que can also refer to people it is used more often. The meaning can be who or that.


The usage of quien is more limited since it can only refer to people and it also depends on the structure of the sentence. For example, la mujer, quien era la hermana del señor que se murió… as opposed to la mujer que era la hermana del señor que se murió...


As well, with prepositions the usage tends to be a little more precise thus opting for quien when referring to a person.. For example, con quien vs con que. Con quien salió vs. con que salió…


Here is a link to support my explanation:


http://www.spanish411.net/Spanish-Relative-Pronouns.asp


-MP.
 
Last edited:
M

Marianopolita

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Marianopolita said:
Yes, I do but that is not the reason why it is not used in that phrase which is what the OP asked.


You say it should be quien but que is used so explain why then. That will help the OP and the newspaper example is correct.


-MP.
Click to expand...

dv8 said:
interestingly enough miesposo says that QUE is correct but cannot explain it (he's the worst teacher i have ever seen). from what i could understand he says that "QUE fue ejecutado" refers to the action of being killed rather than to the person being killed?

another article about the same crime (two men being killed by the police, one of them a son of narco who was executed by his own men), this time from DL says:
Hombres que mataron en La Romana pertenecían a banda dirigida por narco Pascual Cabrera desde la cárcel.
again, i think it should be "quiénes mataron".
Click to expand...



Tu esposo and I have both said the same thing. The newspaper example is correct. Actually, there isn't really any doubt in my opinion. However, I can understand why you have raised the question.


Hopefully, with my explanation and the link I provided you will now understand the difference in usage.


In the examples you gave using quien instead of que sound cumbersome to me.


Also note there is a grammatical difference between quien and quién… ¡Ojo!

Grammar is not something everyone has studied or can explain. One has to have the background. Therefore, if tu esposo can't it is very common among speakers of any language.



-MP.
 
M

Marianopolita

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Matilda said:
El pronombre "que" se usa para objetos o personas en el 90% de los casos. Para personas, también se puede usar "quien", pero solo en situaciones muy formales, como pronombre interrogativo (quién) o cuando no hay antecedente expreso, en cuyo caso se puede usar "el/la que" o "quien". Cuando hay un antecedente, "quien" suena excesivamente formal, pero cuando no lo hay, suena más natural (por ej., "quien no quiera venir, que no venga" suena bien, pero "la persona quien no quiera venir, que no venga" no.

Matilda
Click to expand...



Can you please provide the link for this.

That way if there are other details and grammar points to read it can be useful.




-MP.
 
D

dv8

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thanks, now i understand a bit better.

you are also right saying that language rules cannot be easily explained by laymen. one can confidently say: "this is right/wrong" but to explain why is that requires more knowledge than just the ability to use the language, even as a native.
 
M

Marianopolita

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dv8 said:
if it was a whatsap chat or a letrero on a barrio business - yes. but these examples come from newspapers. maybe the journalism in DR is not the best but these folks write as a profession, every single day.
Click to expand...


This is absolutely correct. Then all speakers of Spanish would be wrong.

The usage comes down to grammar and knowing the difference between que and quien as well as the grammatical role and options.

As you said not only do these folks write as a profession they are writing in their native language. One can’t knock Dominican journalism this time.


-MP.
 
M

Marianopolita

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Dec 26, 2003
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dv8 said:
thanks, now i understand a bit better.

you are also right saying that language rules cannot be easily explained by laymen. one can confidently say: "this is right/wrong" but to explain why is that requires more knowledge than just the ability to use the language, even as a native.
Click to expand...


Right on!


If you have any more questions or examples post them.



-MP.
 
W

william webster

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Jan 16, 2009
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Marianopolita said:
dv8 here is my explanation:


From a grammatical perspective the topic is relative pronouns. Que and quien are both relative pronouns and have distinct functions in a sentence.


Que can refer to people, things, objects, ideas etc.


Quien can only be used to refer to people


The noun that precedes the relative pronoun is call the antecedent in grammar (English as well as Spanish). It plays a role and where it is positioned in the phrase can determine usage.


However, since que can also refer to people it is used more often. The meaning can be who or that.


The usage of quien is more limited since it can only refer to people and it also depends on the structure of the sentence. For example, la mujer, quien era la hermana del señor que se murió… as opposed to la mujer que era la hermana del señor que se murió...


As well, with prepositions the usage tends to be a little more precise thus opting for quien when referring to a person.. For example, con quien vs con que. Con quien salió vs. con que salió…


Here is a link to support my explanation:


http://www.spanish411.net/Spanish-Relative-Pronouns.asp


-MP.
Click to expand...

Student here trying make sense .... and will most likely never be capable of using it correctly

Please look at my example from your quote below
Is this an example of what you're teaching ?

For example, la mujer, quien era la hermana del señor que se murió… as opposed to la mujer que era la hermana del señor que se murió...

It appears to me in this example that the comma is the determining factor in the pronoun selection

Is this right ??
 
M

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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william webster said:
Student here trying make sense .... and will most likely never be capable of using it correctly

Please look at my example from your quote below
Is this an example of what you're teaching ?

For example, la mujer, quien era la hermana del señor que se murió… as opposed to la mujer que era la hermana del señor que se murió...

It appears to me in this example that the comma is the determining factor in the pronoun selection

Is this right ??
Click to expand...


First of all I am not teaching. I am just posting and sharing knowledge.


Yes, it is the sentence structure that is key in that example.



-MP.
 
J

JasonD

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"La mujer quien ERA la hermana del senor que se murio vs La mujer quien ES la hermana del senor que se murio?"
 
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