Article addresses racism

John 8:32 said:

These Boston Artists Use Mangos And Mariposas To Address Anti-Blackness Among Dominicans And Haitians

www.wbur.org/artery/2018/10/11/mang...aitians-dominicans-iris-lapaix-chanel-thervil

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Another article that doesn't mention the real reason for Dominican dislike of Haiti ( the brutal occupation and 5 attempts to invade) Also is this statement from the article true ?: Through unsustainable agricultural practices, the French decimated the land, making much of it unusable for generations to follow.
I believe it was the slash and burn agricultural pratices of Haitians as well as destroying the forests for charcoal that desimated the land for agriculture.

bob saunders said:

Another article that doesn't mention the real reason for Dominican dislike of Haiti ( the brutal occupation and 5 attempts to invade) Also is this statement from the article true ?: Through unsustainable agricultural practices, the French decimated the land, making much of it unusable for generations to follow.
I believe it was the slash and burn agricultural pratices of Haitians as well as destroying the forests for charcoal that desimated the land for agriculture.

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do you think the average joe in the street who refers to Haitians as ''maldito moreno'' is intimately familiar with the history of Haitian occupation? even if he is, do you think it affects him sufficiently that it colors his relationship to Haitians? do you really believe that some Haitian haters know that there were 5 attempts to invade?

you need to read some literature which will help you to understand caribbean sociology. it is more of a study in immediacy, rather than posterity. Dominicans who hate being on public transport with Haitians do not have that sentiment because the Haitians invaded over a century ago.

bob saunders said:

Another article that doesn't mention the real reason for Dominican dislike of Haiti ( the brutal occupation and 5 attempts to invade) Also is this statement from the article true ?: Through unsustainable agricultural practices, the French decimated the land, making much of it unusable for generations to follow.
I believe it was the slash and burn agricultural pratices of Haitians as well as destroying the forests for charcoal that desimated the land for agriculture.

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I asked my wife about her opinion on what's the deal between Haitians and Dominicans and to be honest, she couldn't give me an answer besides the immigration issue. But again, that was her opinion as others have theirs. Is it racism? I don't think most of the Dominicans I know see it as racism. I more think they see it as tribalism. But most Black folks from the Caribbean and USA may see it as racism. In my opinion, it's a little bit of all of the above..it's an excuse to dislike or hate. It's complicated? I guess.aranoid:

cbmitch9 said:

I asked my wife about her opinion on what's the deal between Haitians and Dominicans and to be honest, she couldn't give me an answer besides the immigration issue. But again, that was her opinion as others have theirs. Is it racism? I don't think most of the Dominicans I know see it as racism. I more think they see it as tribalism. But most Black folks from the Caribbean and USA may see it as racism. In my opinion, it's a little bit of all of the above..it's an excuse to dislike or hate. It's complicated? I guess.aranoid:

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bob saunders seems to disagree with the findings, declaring the reason to be the response to historical injustice. i beg to differ, because i believe that most hatreds, be they race, ethnicity, religion, or sexual preference are taught, and not formulated from experience. look at all hate groups, and ask individual members if a member of the group they hate ever did them anything negative. most of the guys in Charlottesville screaming ''Jews will not replace us'' have never met a Jewish person.

the gorgon said:

do you think the average joe in the street who refers to Haitians as ''maldito moreno'' is intimately familiar with the history of Haitian occupation? even if he is, do you think it affects him sufficiently that it colors his relationship to Haitians? do you really believe that some Haitian haters know that there were 5 attempts to invade?

you need to read some literature which will help you to understand caribbean sociology. it is more of a study in immediacy, rather than posterity. Dominicans who hate being on public transport with Haitians do not have that sentiment because the Haitians invaded over a century ago.

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Most Dominicans have no problem being on public transport with " Clean " Haitians, and yes most Dominicans know enough of their history to know the past issues with Haitians. They are also aware of the current issues which they blame of the Dominican government, not Haitians. Jarabacoa came into being as a result of Dominicans trying to escape invading Haitians. There are plenty of Black Dominicans that are darker skinned than many Haitians, they aren't hated because they are dark.

John 8:32 said:

If it is response to historical belligerence by Haitians, even then it is no better than the rounding up of USA citizens of Japanese ancestry during World War II and locking them in concentration camps, but even these were eventually released after the war ended. There is one other common thread: Finding people of that ancestry through census records, which in USA were supposed to be secret for 72 years, and in the case of revoking citizenship from Dominicans of Haitian ancestry the bureaucrats used a UN-sponsored census to find victims.

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Your analogy doesn't hold water. Historically the Haitian peaceful invasion resulting in the DR losing some of it's territory, and currently there are areas close to the border and even in Puta Cana where the Haitians outnumber Dominicans, and most of these are not citizens.
Seek to find something, and eliminate all the other facts and you will surely justify your reasoning. You cant revoke something they never had. Many of the cane workers from Haiti have indeed got their Dominican citizenship. There were around 10 Haitians that received their Dominican citizenship when I received mine.

John 8:32 said:

Plenty of Haitians get cleaned up and dressed up for church. I say Haitians because the SUV parked nearby during church has a Haitian plate and because the clergyman is preaching in Creole. Maybe some of them are Dominicans of Haitian ancestry, born before the constitutional change in 2010. Fine by me. What good does it do for them to behave themselves if they are going to face mistreatment in retaliation for acts done by persons beyond their control?

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At church poor people always look at their best so I don't understand your remark.
Yes there's a lot of racism against Haitians and yes it started in the past because of the invasions etc but these days it's because they look African.
Remember when I told my baby mom that she had African blood, she answered that she wasn't Haitian and therefore could not have African blood. I asked where she thought her colour would come from, she said because of dark Spanish ancestors, duh!!!!
A white university educated Dominican told me once that he would never buy a piece of land where Haitians had lived because they would have made that soil sour since they defecate in the open.
Many times I've spoken with Dominicans about their hatred towards Haitians and not once was mentioned the past as the cause of this hatred.

Fulano2 said:

They just repeat what they hear from their parents, uncles, school. Haitians Son brujos and eat babies and don't bath.
The same thing with how they treat dogs, they throw Stones at a dog because they see that being done and it is macho behaviour.

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I live in an area that has plenty of Haitians and see lots og interacction between Haitians and Dominicans. Yes the same Dominican pigs that make rude remarks to Dominican women and girls do the same to Haitians but in general relations are pretty pleasant. I have a Haitian friend that has lived in the DR for 16 years. He is fluent in Spanish and functional in English. He has a work Visa and his wife has residency. He tells me he has absolutely no problem with his Dominican neighbours.

bob saunders said:

I live in an area that has plenty of Haitians and see lots og interacction between Haitians and Dominicans. Yes the same Dominican pigs that make rude remarks to Dominican women and girls do the same to Haitians but in general relations are pretty pleasant. I have a Haitian friend that has lived in the DR for 16 years. He is fluent in Spanish and functional in English. He has a work Visa and his wife has residency. He tells me he has absolutely no problem with his Dominican neighbours.

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bob, i have not seen much defense from you regarding your assertion that historical factors are what cause the rift. have you abandoned that premise, or are you feeling outnumbered because subsequent posters find the postulate to be without merit?

frank recktenwald said:

At church poor people always look at their best so I don't understand your remark.
Yes there's a lot of racism against Haitians and yes it started in the past because of the invasions etc but these days it's because they look African.
Remember when I told my baby mom that she had African blood, she answered that she wasn't Haitian and therefore could not have African blood. I asked where she thought her colour would come from, she said because of dark Spanish ancestors, duh!!!!
A white university educated Dominican told me once that he would never buy a piece of land where Haitians had lived because they would have made that soil sour since they defecate in the open.
Many times I've spoken with Dominicans about their hatred towards Haitians and not once was mentioned the past as the cause of this hatred.

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Guess you talk with different Dominicans than I do. My wife for example doesnt hate Haitians and has no problem admitting that she has some African ancestors. She doesnt trust Haitians as a group but has no problems with individual Haitians. She like most Dominicans doesnt really care what colour you are. Her good friends are every colour in the rainbow as are her relatives.

bob saunders said:

Guess you talk with different Dominicans than I do. My wife for example doesnt hate Haitians and has no problem admitting that she has some African ancestors. She doesnt trust Haitians as a group but has no problems with individual Haitians. She like most Dominicans doesnt really care what colour you are. Her good friends are every colour in the rainbow as are her relatives.

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yes, bob, but your friends and their friends do not constitute a representative sample upon which any worthwhile sociological inquiry can be built.

bob saunders said:

Guess you talk with different Dominicans than I do. My wife for example doesnt hate Haitians and has no problem admitting that she has some African ancestors. She doesnt trust Haitians as a group but has no problems with individual Haitians. She like most Dominicans doesnt really care what colour you are. Her good friends are every colour in the rainbow as are her relatives.

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My experience with my wife's large family and their friends and acqualitances are similar. I've met nobody who "hates" Haitians.

Much of the angst is in competition for scarce gubmint resources, especially healthcare. Crime is also an issue, although that tends to be more anecdotal than based on personal experience.

I am not sure the angst is skin-based. Maybe more culture based.

the gorgon said:

bob, i have not seen much defense from you regarding your assertion that historical factors are what cause the rift. have you abandoned that premise, or are you feeling outnumbered because subsequent posters find the postulate to be without merit?

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Not at all, I know enough educated Dominicans that have empathy for the plight of Haitians but they also see enough of Haitian behavior in their own country and don't want it repeated in the DR. They know the history between the two countries very well and don't have a problem with a controlled amount of Haitians being in the DR but want controlled borders. Truilljos grandsons is pretty popular with what he is saying. Dominicans are afraid of the Haitians because of the history, not because they are more Arfrican looking. Our Haitian clients are treated exactly the same as our Dominican clients. Why would I abandon a premise that is correct.

John 8:32? Is this another account for the poster SomebodySmart?

the gorgon said:

do you think the average joe in the street who refers to Haitians as ''maldito moreno'' is intimately familiar with the history of Haitian occupation? even if he is, do you think it affects him sufficiently that it colors his relationship to Haitians? do you really believe that some Haitian haters know that there were 5 attempts to invade?

you need to read some literature which will help you to understand caribbean sociology. it is more of a study in immediacy, rather than posterity. Dominicans who hate being on public transport with Haitians do not have that sentiment because the Haitians invaded over a century ago.

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First thing's first: Dominicans wouldn't refer to a Haitian as 'maldito moreno', they would call him 'maldito haitiano'....moreno/a are descriptors for our own dark-skinned folks and never meant as an insult. The average Joe may not be intimately familiar with all of the workings of the Haitain occupation, but the average Domincian does know we were under their control for 22 years and were attacked brutally before and after their 22-year occupation, so it is safe to say that the sentiment of distrust has been passed down through generations and shapes the negative perception most/many Dominicans have of Haitians.

I find it interesting that the negative perception and sense of entitlement many Haitians have towards Dominicans and their presence in DR is never brought up by those who defend them. You will be hard pressed to come across a Haitian that does not feel that their presence in DR is justified as they see the DR as originally theirs and that the island is 'one and indivisible', which is from the era of the Haitian Revolution. Seems Haitians are allowed to hold on to, and dare I say, revere, their past but Dominicans are not allowed to do so. Haitians are allowed to harp on about the Parsely Massacre but heaven forbid a Dominican mentions the beheadings and brutal murders in Moca and Santiago by Haitians, we are told we should move on.

Now, regarding the public transport issue with Haitians, and this I acknowledge is based on both personal and friends/family anecdotal experiences, unfortunately, many poor Haitians employ poor hygiene, even when they leave Haiti so that also adds to the negative perception Dominicans have of them. I hear my cousins who have to use public transport complain about 'smelly, musty' Haitians on the bus and I recall similar experiences when I lived in Miami and witnessed the lack of personal hygiene of some Haitians I encountered, especially with the Haitain women who openly flaunted their hairy, smelly armpits in Miami heat....ugh!!!!

Nothing good will come of this thread.

Closed.