Stigma

Cleef

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Feb 24, 2002
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(I meant this to go under the "Marijuana Laws" Post)
I've seen a few posts on this and my curiousity is still peaked as to WHY it's so taboo here.

Why is it so socially unacceptable? What made it that way?

I'm not complaining by any means, but why can someone buy rum or beer from their drivers seat, tear out of the parking lot, smash the bottle, throw out their Burger King wrappers and do 100kmh passing people in the left hand turn lane - and carry a gun - and it's fine, but if they smoked a joint on the beach they'd be stoned to death - no pun intended, well maybe a little.

I don't need jail stories or any of that, I'm just so curious as to why it's so frowned upon. Of all the socially unaceptable behavior I've witnessed here I wonder why this one in particular gets so much attention.

Again, I'm not championing anything, I'm just curious as to what brought this island to this strong belief.
 
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Tony C

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Jan 1, 2002
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The logic of Marijuana laws is a totally different arguement but can you name me where marijuana smoking is socialy acceptable among the majority in a country of western society? Even in nations where it has been decriminalized it i still not "socially acceptble" among the masses. That should answer your question!
BTW Heed the warnings!!! While pot smoking does exist in the DR there is nothing they love better than to bust a foreigner! If you are caught you are looking at a "midnight express" ride to hell! even if they jut find a roach or resin in a pipe. I am not moralizing here. It is that bad!

Tony C.
 

Pib

Goddess
Jan 1, 2002
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I would venture a guess and say that the egg came after the chicken. :)

I believe that the Dominican governments have been blackmailed/encouraged/pushed/convinced/etc. by the US government to pass draconian laws on drugs (back from Trujillo?s times). The US has made sure that we prosecute drug users and dealers to the full extent of the law. The possibility of ending up in jail for a long period of time and in the process embarrassing your family has created the aversion that the Dominican society feels for drugs (obviously excepting drug users and dealers).
 

Cleef

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Feb 24, 2002
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Capice

Oh belive me, as much as I like risks, this is not one I have any interest in entertaining. I went to school in New Hampshire followed the Dead for one glorious summer - or was it 3, I don't remember - and I got my fill.

I understand - and agree - that it's not socially acceptable anywhere - but this doesn't answer my question..... I'm trying to drill down as to WHY it's SO taboo here.

What brought the law to be so vicious?
 

Pib

Goddess
Jan 1, 2002
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See above.

I'll add that the interest of the US is a selfish one of course (not that I blame them). The DR, more than a consumer, is traditionally a bridge from South America producers to US consumers. By making sure the local police make hell of the life of offenders they discourage other people from even thinking about it. Often users are enrolled into the business, so by catching the users you catch a dealer or potential dealer.

We could argue the merits of this method, but I think that is the whole idea.
 

MommC

On Vacation!
Mar 2, 2002
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IMHO.......it's because a few corrupt

generals want to control the drug flow through the DR.
It's very profitable for them and they hold a lot of power.
This question might be better answered by the fishermen who "fish" the coasts of the island.
 

Tony C

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Jan 1, 2002
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It is not that the laws are particularly vicious compared to other countries. It is that the DR legal system is currupt. If they bust a foriegner with pot they will milk you and your family for as much money as they can get. You will be a cash cow.
Plus the prisons are similar to other 3rd world countries. Corrupt, under funded, understaffed and no protection.

Tony C.
 

Pib

Goddess
Jan 1, 2002
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MommC, allow me to disagree with you in part.

First, generals DO NOT pass laws. Check the recent news on the new money laundry laws. Heavy US lobbying there. You do not want to p** off Uncle Sam. Second, those who control the big business do not profit from infights and randomly jailing their own employees.

Not that I am denying there must be big names in the business, but THAT is not why the laws are that way.
 

Pib

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Jan 1, 2002
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You are right Tony. There are some countries where a joint could cost you your head. But, that doesn't make it any easier if you are in a Dominican Jail. And you are right, tough sentences, unsympathetic judges and lousy jails do not make for your typical tropical vacation.

edited by Pib to fix stupid mispellings.
 
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Cleef

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Feb 24, 2002
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Thanks Pib

I tend to believe the US would pull such shenanigans. That does make sense.

I'll go on to ask (caveat: not sure if this is fact) then why would the DR allow the US to send back it's jailed Dominican's who've been caught for drugs?

If the DR is supporting the US's wishes concerning drugs then it seems like they would not want to house/jail the offenders from the US?

Are you following me here?
 
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El Jefe

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Jan 1, 2002
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PIB, i really hate to disagree with you, my Godess...

In Trujillo's day there was no MJ problem in the DR. I didn't even know what it was until we moved to Jamaica. IMHO, there are two reasons for the Draconian punishment...one is that its against the law, two, it makes for better bribes. I can accept marijuana use only for medical purposes. Until the DR and US change their laws it is illegal and folks should do like the old song' If you can't do the time, then don't do the crime." Oh...he got busted didn't he... It does no real good to rehash all the reasons pro and con...we all know them...the point is that it is illegal and anyone travling to the DR who wants to toke should reconsider travel destinations...go see SAMANA1 in the Netherlands for example...no problem there...

Of course anyone who's going to the DR and intends to partake should not ask questions on an open forum...advertising doesn't pay...
 

Jane J.

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Jan 3, 2002
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Hmmm. I think the zeal in which we people are prosecuted, framed, and intimidated has a lot to do with the need for the POLICE to control THEIR market. It may not be why the laws were passed originally, but how laws are enforced is equally important, as we all know of many that are not as vigourously upheld, and therefore not taken as seriously.

This is a bit of a sore point for me. My husband was frequently jailed for "investigative" purposes, especially in his younger (he'll kill me for that) years. Those of us who live there are familiar with the frequent redadas (round-ups) in which any average joe unlucky enough to be walking down the street at that moment is hauled off to jail. To me, it was always as if they like to say, "Hey, look, we're doing our jobs...we're really *trying* to find the source of the drugs." The more people doing time for these *crimes*, guilty or not, looks better for them. But's it's all bulto, if you know what I mean.

And Tony C., here in Montreal it is quite accepted - you smell it everywhere. You can't be charged with possession unless you're carrying more than an ounce on you. Or something like that.
 

Cleef

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Feb 24, 2002
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That's more of what I was expecting to learn

Thanks Jane.

Tony, also in California you can have up to a quarter ounce and not be charged with anything more than a misdemeanor and a fine. Usually, you will be sent on your way with no penalty - depending on your record. (not knowledge learned from experience, I have a lawyer-in-law in Ca.)

As queer as the US though, if you happened to cross the state line and be in Nevada, you'd be in jail for the foreseeable future and lose just about everything you own.

I have a feeling Janice is going to jump in here.

I think my questions have been answered, thanks everyone.
 

Pib

Goddess
Jan 1, 2002
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I am glad you disagree with me El Jefe, or people might start suspecting... [wink, wink]. And BTW, I trust Cleef, whom I had the pleasure to meet, is only interested in another aspect of the Dominican society. I am sure he is not "advertising".

I don't think there was much MJ use in the times of your "tocayo". In those days everything was solved by kindly dis-attaching your testes from the rest of your body. Very effective in discouraging people. About Jane J?s post about overzealous policemen, I think she is absolutely right, only that it is a consequence of the current policies, not its causes.

I?ll see if I find more on this, now I am curious myself.
 

Jim Hinsch

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Jan 1, 2002
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Research it - you'll be very surprised

I suggest anybody interested in the reasons we have certain drug laws, in the USA and around the world, and the reasons the penalties are what they are, do a little internet research. A few hours reading sites dedicated to this will give you a wealth of info and then you can surprise your friends with "Actually, ..."

You'd be surprised about when, where, and why, and the reason the penalties have changed so much over history (one day they lock you up forever, another day they slap your hand, the next day they are back to locking you up) and are so different in different places.

You'll also find out that the current poltically correct response to drug use is in sharp contrast with the original intent of the current laws, and that the first federal drug laws were passed by deliberate misrepresentation.

If you are into conspiricy theories, some say that the Democrats are financed by drug flow from Columbia to Haiti to the DR to the US while the Republicans are fincanced through drug flow that comes up through Mexico.

It ultimately boils down to US vs. THEM or ME vs. YOU and this history of law follows this in other areas as well. Laws were passed to favor me or us, hurt you or them. You only need to look at who was in charge, who benefited, and who suffered at the times the laws and penalties were put in place or changed to understand the REAL motives.

Did you know that the relaxing of drug laws took place in the USA because the children of the "us" crowd (those in power) were being affected (getting locked up) by the laws?
 

El Jefe

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Jan 1, 2002
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Don't think Cleef was advertising either but if you think back many moons there was a young fellow who definately seemed to be and basically was saying he was going to try to buy some...oh my gorsh...it was friend Armin...since he's still around either he didn't buy or didn't get caught
 

Cleef

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Feb 24, 2002
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I don't need to advertise

I'm a walking, talking gringo billboard. My gringo friends like going out with me because they blend in better with the locals. If they want to lock me up for something they'll have to come up with better reasons - perhaps being too "gringo" could fall under "indecent exposure".

I caught Armin's post too and I was thisclose to replying to it asking these very questions but figured I could better introduce the subject than he did - no offense of course.

It's just that upon moving here I found (still do ocassionaly) the logic of some social rules/laws to be diametrically opposed to each other.

Does anyone else notice that logic doesn't exist, more often than not? Maybe it's me.
 

Pib

Goddess
Jan 1, 2002
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Jim I just ordered three books from my Alma Mater's library on the subject of Dominican drug policy and its history. That was Cleef's post was about originally. I am an ignorant in THIS subject, let alone on US drug policy. I'll see what I can learn.

I don't think that anyone here will complain if we take it slightly broader and you tell us about what you mentioned in your post. I am all ears. :)
 
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Jim Hinsch

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Jan 1, 2002
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The origin of unfair laws - life is not fair, because life is business

I'm not sure I understand the question.

The reason we have such huge difference in penalty severity and legality for certain behaviour across otherwise seemingly similar societies is because the laws and penalties were never put into place for the purpose stated to the public, aka, the facade.

Usually, at the time such laws were passed, those affected by the laws are NOT those in power, nor their supporters. So to these people, the law does not affect them but gives the authorities great power over some small group of people. Hence, when drug laws started affecting the children of those in power and their supporters, the penalties were quickly reduced.

Who cares if laws are passed that say the penalty for selling heroin or child porography or exporting nuclear material or counterfeiting currency ... is life in prison without possiblity of parole? Who will speak up if a new tax is put in place specifically to triples the cost of imported [insert something you don't use but "they" do].

These laws were generally put in place to favor one group of people over another.

Over time, the public echos the facade and the facade becomes the real reason.

If you look at the drug laws in the USA and the world, almost ALL of it is due to ONE MAN, the first head of the new Federal Bureau of Narcotics (now called the DEA ). His name is Harry J. Anslinger. He was appointed to this position by Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon, head of the Mellon Bank of Pittsburgh, one of the two banks with which DuPont did business. He held that position until 1962.

Dupont and Hearst had huge financial interests in wood pulp, paper, and fibers to protect, interests that would have been destroyed by Marijuana producers.

February 1938: Popular Mechanics describes hemp as the "new billion dollar crop." The article was actually written in the spring of 1937, before cannabis was criminalized. Also in February 1938, Mechanical Engineering calls hemp "the most profitable and desirable crop that can be grown."

See http://www.parascope.com/articles/0897/timeline.htm

As far as its history in other countries, most western policy is directly or indirectly of the USA, or better said, the same powers that control the USA, control the western world.

This is important. Next time you hear somebody "echoing the facade" (like the reason we invaded Haiti, for the war on drugs, the energy crisis, the gulf war, the war on terrorism, ...), remind yourself the world is full of simple people. Nice people, but simple. Remember that governments protect and nurture the interests of those in power and their supporters, not my interests or yours (unless you are one of those powerful people that runs the show!).

Next time you hear people telling you drugs destroy countries, pedophiles should be skinned alive, that we need to get tough on organized crime, how breast implants cause cancer, that Microsoft is unfair, that witches need to be burned at the stake, that we are put on this earth to suffer and await the coming of God, or any other opinion that was mostly "given" to them, ... know that originally, it wasn't quite so personal, it was business!

Note: There are far worse evils in the world. Until it affects the bottom line of someone in power, it is just background noise.

Have opinions, but be sure you know the story before you judge. Better yet, judge not!
 
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