Oh I would love to see this here!!

And dont forget they also want to nix the pledge of aligence! How sad!:disappoin :angry:

Jess,

Not that I am an expert in all American, but I would assume that in a country where the constitution grants the separation of church and state something like "under God" is out of place. Are non-believers less American? How about Wiccans? or Budhists?

Just my two cents, feel free to make change.

Pledge and other stuff

The Congress and the Senate both today pledge allegiance to the flag as it is written in the constitution "Under God", they are really pissed off with the judges decision in San Fransico and it looks like he will be changing his ruling according to Larry King of CNN
The athiest who appealled for his rights to remove "God" from the wording will have to try something else, separation of religion and stae will not happen in the good ole USA.
In fact every piece of US currency has "In God We Trust" on it so if the ruling were upheld they would have to make all new money.
The song God Bless America would have to be changed as well.
A real can of worms.

The pledge of allegiance is not in the US constitution!
Just Because "In God We Trust" is written on US currency doesn't make it right.
The song "God Bless America" is just a song. It has no legal standing nor is it part of any code. The only official US song is The National Anthem.
What cracks me up is all these "Christians" who are calling the guy who brought the suit all kinds of names. Aren't Christians suppose to be forgiving.
I agree that in the US it will be damn near impossible to be able to truly seperate church from state but we can hope!
Frankly I think we are facing many more important problems that need attention from our so called Leaders. always remember when Religion ruled the world they called it the "Dark Ages!"

Tony C.

Beelzebub speaks

Separation of Church and State is good (for me). If you want to pledge to your God or to your statue or to your vertebrate.....be my guest....its a free country.....but just like i dont like the govt telling me how to spend my money (taxes).... i dont like a govt entity (public schools) telling me i should abide by others' paganistic vices...the radical right and the radical left are skins off the same back: they both want to impute and impregnate their beliefs on the populace...


must go.....dawn approaches

Although it has been ruled that it is not unconstitutional to use the school vouchers at religious schools, most of us don't have a choice.

Our State government has to pass a bill saying that parents can get vouchers. With a 120,000,000 shortfall that ain't gonna happen in Maine anytime soon! Too bad, since my kids don't go to public school.

Mainer (proper pronunciation Mainah)

original pledge

The original pledge was made in 1892 by a socialist, Baptist minister named Bellamy. It was for the 400th anniversery since the arrival of Colon. Later they changed "my flag" to "to the flag, of ....."; in order for recent immigrants to be less confused about what flag they were pledging to. At the beginning of the Cold War, the McCarthy types inserted "under God".

I am all up for the private school vouchers, I think it's more than fair. I attended private schools my whole life and my parents not only paid tuition for these private catholic schools but also paid the taxes the paid for other peoples kids to go to school. And I think it goes way beyond religion and separation of state. The public school system in New York City is is disgusting and in many cases the only other alternative for parents seeking a better education for their kids is a private school. The Catholic school I attended was very diverse, religion was part of our studies but it wasn't forced upon us...I never felt pressured to follow catholism just because I attended a Catholic school and to this day I am non-practicing. Anyways my point is that until the school systems shape up parents should have that choice available to them and they shouldn't have to pay double.

As for the pledge of allegiance thing...we need to get over that and focus on greater issues, like the freaken social security taxes I am paying which will not be available to me later....If you don't want to pledge allegiance then don't but stop wasting our freaken tax money on litigation and appeals!

It is broke,and it should be fixed!

The public school system!The teachers unions want the status quo,teach 4 hours a day,2 assitants,3 months off in the summer,wage increases!My son,not a Catholic,went to a Catholic High School!He prayed like a Catholic to keep the Nuns happy and even got 100 in Religion!I paid about $5,000 per year for a great education,(plus my state and property taxes)and great sports program,at about one half the money per student that the Boston Public highschools recieved from our taxes to warehouse students!When I found out that my son only applied to one college I was dumbfounded!"What did your counsilor say?",I asked."He thinks I'm "nuts!" my son replied."I,m not worried,I know 3 kids who got in there last year,and I'm a lot smarter than any of the 3!"He got in,$8,500 in scholarship year one,and full scholarship for 2nd.year. Of course he "dropped out" after the first year to work construction and learn furniture refinishing,but he is now back at Univ.of Mass.Point being,private schools offer a better education than the vast majority of public schools,and in most cases for a lot less money!"Hello"I can "Vouch" for it!!!CRISCO

hey Criss, I think we're finally agreeing on something....is it because it's my birthday? hehehe

I have been in the Real Estate business for many many years. In NY State the majority of school monies comes from taxes on R.E..

My daughter hasn't seen the inside of a public school ever and God willing never will. She has been in private school since pre-school. So, along with paying school taxes on my two homes, (home and condo) I have been paying it on rentals, commercial, vacant land and on 75 acres that surrounded my home for years without any return whatsoever.

I just got her report card and she did excellant. Money isn't all that important as long as I can continue to afford to send her and she continues to thrive. All "A's" and got the highest marks in her school in the Math Olympiad. Vouchers would be nice. Especially at the tune of 10k a year. I wouldnt mind vouchers for camp either. Maybe I will write my congressman!

Have a great weekend everyone.

Crisco

Wait a minute Cris. I'm a product of public schools!!

some public schools are really good... some are bad.. The problem is if you live in a town with a bad one what do you do?

"history of the Pledge" & more . . .

'Our secret pledge'

By Charles Paul Freund,

Turns out that the Pledge of Allegiance was
written in 1892 by a Christian socialist, Francis
Bellamy -- first cousin of Edward Looking
Backward Bellamy -- a hater of capitalism whose
sermons about "Jesus the Socialist" got him
fired from his Boston church. Turns out that
before World War II, many schoolchildren
recited the Pledge not with their hands over their
hearts, but with their right arms outstretched
toward the flag in a pose we now associate with
fascist storm troopers. Turns out that until the
20th century, the flag was rarely displayed in
classrooms at all, and that the Pledge was part of
a campaign by the ostensibly anti-capitalist
owners of the magazine Youth's Companion --
where the Pledge first appeared -- to sell a whole
lot of flags to schools.

That information -- and much more like it --
comes from a history of the Pledge that was
originally written in 1989, and which has long
been sitting on the ACLU's Web site. After a
federal court found the Pledge to be in violation
of church/state separation Wednesday, this
secret history began bouncing around the Net.
That exemplified not only the quicksilver fluidity
of context in an open system of debate, it
illustrated even more the fluidity of meaning of
an artifact like the Pledge. A recitation whose
leftist author apparently intended it to instill
regard for a benevolent central authority was
soon read by rightists as an indispensable
performance of patriotism. This rightist
interpretation long ago established itself as the
only valid reading. . . .

[click for link to article --->

http://reason.com/links/links062702.shtml

? 2002 Reason

==================================================

The view from Los Angeles: 'A blow to U.S. education'

A Los Angeles Times Editorial

It's been quite a week of extremes for the courts
and religion. A federal appeals court said God
couldn't be mentioned in the Pledge of
Allegiance; now a closely divided Supreme
Court held Thursday that spending public
money to pay tuition costs at religious schools
was constitutional and did not violate the
separation of church and state.

The appeals court decision regarding the pledge
was more silly than threatening; the high court's
voucher ruling, however, has serious
implications. Public money should not be used
to promote proselytizing and religious training,
key parts of the mission of any religious school. . . .

[click for link to article --->

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion...28jun28.story?coll=la-news-comment-editorials

? 2002 LA Times

==================== + __ + =================

My comments:

My two younger brothers are "school teachers" and members of a 'professional teachers union'. In most cases the conditions "set" for how a "publick" school district conducts it's business is the direct product of the "District School Board". If the wimps (ah, members) of the district board want to live with "a piece crap" school system then the voters of said 'district' should get off their collective "lazy arases" and vote the "slackers" out of office. IMHO

What criss decries as the status quo in the Boston area couldn't be farther from the truth of the "working conditions" that my brothers endure; easily a 60 hour work week, chaperoning class field trips (over night) and summer trips to foreign countries, all manner of after class school activities, Internet help with class work questions, and meeting the requirements of "mandatory" continued education for advancement.

I'm also the product of a 100% "publick" education, doz' it show?

regards,

. . . CES

teachers....

FYI, private school teachers endure the same conditions....

I think that SOME private schools are most likely models of excellence in education, and I also think that religious private schools have a distinct advantage with families because the families agree from the outset that religion is to be a part of the education. SO there's no arguments there. I have found discipline to be much easier in my private school simply because we can go back to the fundamentals of our belief system throughout the process...actually last year we had a real troublemaker and we had a conference with the 'rents...turns out the dad (NOT a Christian) had never told his kid he loved him out loud. While we were in conference he did for the first time. That was a result of our doctrine and the fact that we could talk about discipline happens out of love, and of it's punishment it's not discipline! Needless to say that was a big breakthrough for the boy's behavior. Getting his dad in the office, not to scream at him but tell him he loved him!

Anyway, some private schools might be awesome. But there's a lot that are not, either. In private schools you need a degree, but not necessarily a teaching certificate (depends on the school). Therefore in one school I know of, an MBA teaches algebra, an art major teaches Spanish, a physics major teaches first grade, a Bible major teaches English, and so on. There's very few teachers there who have a background in teaching, per se, and lose a lot of what they "know" to a complete lack of "know-how" in a classroom setting.

The ruling on the pledge was not by the Supreme Court, rather a 9th Circuit Court of Appeals panel of three judges. It was a 2-1 decision. Judge Goodwin wrote the decision. The following day he said OOP! People ar e mad at me and stayed his own decision. It will now be heard by the entire 9th Circuit sitting en banc. The decision will most likely be reversed , much to the dissappointment of our resident atheist, TonyC and resident left wing radical, CES. If by some strange thing happens and they don't overurn the decision it will then go to the Supremes and will be overturned by at least a 5-4 margin. if not unanimous.

Jefe.
Do you think it is right to have "Under God" in the pledge? If one does not believe in god, whether atheist, Hindu, Muslim, Agnostic, Budhist ect, dose that make him or her less of an American?

Tony C.

God Bless America!!!!

While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer.

God bless America, land that I love
Stand beside her and guide her
Through the night with the light from above
From the mountains To the prairies,
To the ocean white with foam
God bless America, My home sweet home.

MaineGirl, El Jefe, Tony C, shadley000 . . .

Hi "MaineGirl", welcome to DR1 and the "General Stuff Crew's - no holds barred - lopsided discussions group". You'll probably notice in time that the opinions held here are (sometimes) a lighting rod for "much verbiage about nothing".

I should've said that my siblings (both non church people) are/ were teaching for a Catholic girl's high school, one has since moved on to San Francisco City College and the other remains at "Our Lady of Perpetual Punishment". The both of them have taught in the "publick" system and much prefer "private" or college, the problem being that in California some body has to die first (in the best or most desirable districts) before you are in the 'que' at the dean's hiring office door and then you'll only get in if you are over qualified and will work for less than a "living wage". (I would also say that one graduated from UCB and the other attended that same "fine" pillar of 'higher learning'.)

Ah... "El Jefe" and how are you, well I presume? Jefe, you give me much too much credit for the little bit that I'm able to do for "the cause" ( ... and resident left wing radical, CES), the world has become a very complex place and the "simple minded" view of that world that our "king's administration" spews forth just doesn't "cut it". BTW I live in the land of the "9th Circuit" and my guess is that there's a slim, thin, minuscule chance Judge Goodwin will prevail for the time being. The USA 'SC' is another matter entirely. Gov. "Gray-out" has 'set' the AG's office on the Judge and also wants the legislature to write a law that will prevent Goodwin from ever opening his mouth again in public or otherwise. As for myself I've never given the matter a thought but - If - you ask my opinion, then it's time to do the right thing. Jefe, did you read the complete "Pledge" article?

As for the "voucher ruling" I'll follow my first instinct and say simply "no way Jos?", to promote proselytizing and religious training with my tax money is unjust. If I should want my children to receive any type of "religious" teachings then they'll go to the church of their choosing. The USA was founded (in part) on the principle that there should be a "complete" separation of church and state. If the "collective state" (voters & lawmakers) refuse or are unable to do what's right by our children then the public school system will suffer when vouchers are all the vogue.

"Tony C", this one of the 'few' times that I'll agree with (on the order of about 97%) your opinion.

"shadley000", see my previous post, the voters of a "dud" district have to take charge and roll the errant board members out of office, the sad thing is that so many parents are just not "connected" to what's happening with their children's schooling.

regards,

. . . CES



ps . . . "El Jefe", the malcontents over at ~?Adelante!~ are looking for you too stop in for 'a bit of a go' at it, Tom the Banned, Loren, Richard, etc. . . .