Mejia Misleads

mondongo

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Jan 1, 2002
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According to the DR1 news, President H. Mejia claims that the Dominican people are under-taxed and should prepare for a doubling of the tax burden.

Well, let me respectfully (snicker) disagree with the incumbent. The Dominican federal government spends a LARGER (not smaller, as the sauntering swashbuckler would have you believe) percentage of the national income. The DR feds abscond with OVER 20% of GDP while the USA counterparts only swindle slightly less than 20%. Check the facts...I dare you!!

So you see...he's not satisfied with US$4billion....he wants more...and more...and more.....Is that your hand in my pocket or are you planning to salute my flag?...I feel the storm clouds approaching....
 

GringoCArlos

Retired Ussername
Jan 9, 2002
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Jazzcom, you are out of line with Mondongo.

I am a US citizen, so yes, I am still forced to pay taxes to the US for things that I don't want and/or will never receive anything in return.

I am also required to pay taxes here, and receive little or nothing in return. As far as I'm concerned, that gives me the right to bitch about either place. How about you?

It makes me sick to watch these functionario do-nothing SOB's driving around in shiny new vehicles for which they sucked out tax money to pay for their wheels, while their own people are starving. And they do nothing and serve no useful purpose. And still they want MORE.

I know you love Big Government Jazzcom, and that you and the DR political parties think that the government can solve everyone's problems for them, but government is not a productive enterprise and only spends money they take from anyone who is productive and honest. As well, building houses or buying cars with borrowed money, only to give them away to political cronies is not productive, but DESTRUCTIVE.

If the DR government wants to create jobs to truly help their own people, then cut taxes and get the heck out of the way of productive businesses who want to grow and prosper. Growing businesses will create jobs for those who want to work. If they don't want to work, the only place left to go to "work" for them is to the government. Maybe that's why the DR payroll is now over 360,000.

Continuously raising taxes paid by only a few "suckers" only works to encourage businesses to either not grow, cheat, or as motivation to go somewhere that is friendlier to productive enterprise.
 
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lhtown

Member
Jan 8, 2002
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mondongo said:
The DR feds abscond with OVER 20% of GDP while the USA counterparts only swindle slightly less than 20%. Check the facts...I dare you!!

It is obvious that Dominicans pay a lot of taxes(as do Americans). Both are shortchanged in what they receive for the money "invested." However, at least Americans generally recieve basic services for their "investment" and many not-so-basic "services." To see what is obvious is enough, but just where can one find the statistics you quote?
 

GringoCArlos

Retired Ussername
Jan 9, 2002
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If you read George W's lips. his proposed 2003 budget will be for US$2.128 trillion, and that is projected to be 19.5% of GDP according to the Office of Economic Analysis and the White House websites.

Currently also, the total government payroll for Federal/State/Local governments in the US is 18,076,000 people out of a US workforce of 142,476,000 as of June 2002, according to the US Census Bureau. That's roughly 1 out of 8 workers.

I do not know an accurate number for the available workforce in the DR, but am positive that neither does ANYONE ELSE.

PS - please tell me what I receive from the US for the taxes that I have paid, and continue to pay. I really want to know.
 
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Escott

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Jan 14, 2002
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www.escottinsosua.blogspot.com
GringoCArlos said:
Jazzcom, you are out of line with Mondongo.

I am a US citizen, so yes, I am still forced to pay taxes to the US for things that I don't want and/or will never receive anything in return.

I am also required to pay taxes here, and receive little or nothing in return. As far as I'm concerned, that gives me the right to bitch about either place. How about you?


How can I be out of line with Mondongo? He is just about the biggest bullshit artist I have ever run across. Talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk. He thinks he is patriotic to the DR because he was born there and is of Dominican decent and bitches constantly here. He starts threads constantly about what WE all can do for the DR and does doodie when all is said and done.

What taxes are you required to pay in the DR? There are NO yearly real estate taxes and no taxes on interest earned in banks.

If you are a resident of the DR, (which I am) you get an 80,000 dollar a year exemption for money earned overseas from the United States so you shouldn't give a damn about what they do with the money that they do NOT get from you. You must be a resident or else you wouldn't have to pay taxes you claim to pay in the DR if you don't work there, and you can't legally work there if you aren't a resident, right? What taxes do you pay to the US if that is the case. You can always renounce your US Citizenship and not pay taxes on anything above 80k if that would make you happy. Oh maybe you want some services from the US and that is why you don't want to renounce your citizenship?

Originally posted by GringoCArlos
I know you love Big Government Jazzcom, and that you and the DR political parties think that the government can solve everyone's problems for them,

Well you, just like Mondongo, don't know shit about what I love, what I think or what I do. Do you also talk the same bullshit as he does about what you don't do a thing about, besides whine and snivel here of course?

Originally posted by GringoCArlos
If the DR government wants to create jobs to truly help their own people, then cut taxes and get the heck out of the way of productive businesses who want to grow and prosper. Growing businesses will create jobs for those who want to work. If they don't want to work, the only place left to go to "work" for them is to the government. Maybe that's why the DR payroll is now over 360,000.

Continuously raising taxes paid by only a few "suckers" only works to encourage businesses to either not grow, cheat, or as motivation to go somewhere that is friendlier to productive enterprise.

Start with some facts, such as refering me to where you get your information about "Continuously raising taxes" and lets then move on to your comparisons to other countries in relation to the DR and business taxes.

I will also ask you for your credentials as well as Mondongo. What can you tell me about yourself that will make me think that what you say is worth more than a bag of camel dung?

Lets start with your government experience. What office have your run for and what office have you been elected to that gives you the experience and knowledge of what it takes to run a government?

After you are finished with that I would love to see your resume outlining your business experience that give you the knowledge to make judgements about international business
 

mondongo

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Jan 1, 2002
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lhtown, Thank you for asking about the source of my data. As GringoCarlos points out, you can find out lots about the US Federal budget at the White House website. Here is a useful link with the USA budget numbers:


http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2003/bud34.html


It is a little more difficult to get data for the DR. But most of it can be found at the Central Bank website. I must admit it will take a little digging and a lot of patience, but most of the info is there. The DR GDP for the first 3 monnths of this year can be found at


http://www.bancentral.gov.do/pub/infeco02-03b.pdf

The data is on page 21 of the pdf document. Since the data for the second trimester is not on the web site yet, I had to estimate the second quarter DR GDP. Since we have been told by the Mejia admisnistration that the DR grew at 6% annualized during the second quarter, then I take the DR$90.4billion stated in above document and multiply it my 6% divideded by 4 (an estimate). Add the two numbers and you get a first half GDP of DR$182.15billion. Now for the tricky part. On the same Central Bank website, you can find that last year the DR governent spent about DR$59billion. We all know through what we read in the papers that spending has accelerated this year. According to a recent story on DR1 News (i dont subscribe so i cant access the Archived News), the Mejia administration has spent more than the annualized DR$71billion budget. They reported spendintures of DR$37.5billion onver the first half of this year.

Soooooo.....you divide DR$37.5billion by DR$182.15billion and you get......voila.......20.6%........


Therefore......USA=19.5% (just under 20%) and the DR=20.6% (just over 20%)......


There you have it lhtown....proof once again that when mondongo makes a factual claim, he (unlike most) has done credible research, has dotted his "i"s and crossed his "t"s. I am always more than glad to back up my arguments...so please ask again cause i am all the wiser now that i have taken the time to write this post.
 
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mondongo

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
1,533
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jazzcom.....must you continually burden me with your ignorance, stupidity and just plain uncouth manner? If I had the desire I could take you last post and tear it to shreads...it is incorrect, insipid, inane,incongruent (how do you like my usage of insults beginning with the letter "i"?...clever, huh?) and full of non-sequiturs. Read my last post and learn form it, my son. It does a body good. BTW, would you please provide me with a link to the last time you posted anything of consequence? Proof of any original thought, per chance?

Much Love,
Mondongo

P.S. For God's Sake...... STOP posting those banal lists...I dont read them , but they take up valuable bandwidth....

PPS This is the Business thread. I will not respond to any more of your personal attacks.
 
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Robert

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Jan 2, 1999
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I find it sad that someone has to lower themselves to personal attacks is an effort to reply to a post that is about opinion and analysis.

I don't care if you agree with Mondogo, keep the personal attacks out of it!

Yes, Dominican's are being taxed more.

If you disagree that this is not happening, please post examples or reasoning why this isn't happening.
 

getreal

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Aug 11, 2002
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finaly proper reply to rude and arogant post

Robert you should do this more often with this guy.
Deliting his replies would not heart normal people .
 

Cleef

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Feb 24, 2002
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Pissing contest

This thread began with someones opinion, gleaned from analysis of the news. A great topic to be discussed so that others - like me - can learn more about the inner workings of the "Loud, Fat and Ugly" ..... government.

Jazzy, in all due respect get over yourself and your personal attacks. You have plenty of neat little factoids; learn-me-up, don't drive a potentially excellent thread into the ground with your Beavis and Butthead routine.

Please.

Just drop the routine and give us your opinion of the topics and allow others to do the same, perhaps we can all learn from each other instead of pulling each others hair out.

Your antics aside, this is a thread many would love to jump on board with and learn from. It's current, relevant and an excercise in understanding the powers that be and how they can be possibly culled out in a democratic way - or at least until we can buy our own tanks and mortars.

Truth be told, perhaps some good can come from it; knowledge is power.

I appreciate those who go digging for these facts and share them with me/us, who are too busy - or perhaps too lazy or disinterested...or disheartened - to do so for themselves.

That, in a nutshell, is the value of a message board.

The leftover detritus should be saved for road rage altercations and when your neighbors dog drops a duece in your front yard.

Until such time, my only other addition to this thread is what I was able to learn from my BA in Economics (tenuously earned with a "C+" GPA - that might be generous too).

Being that, a "Loud, Fat and Ugly" government is slow to react to changes, both locally and globally and will only choke and slow whatever growth and recovery a small nation such as this can muster during tough economic times - which if not on the horizon - should always be prepared for regardless.
 

Jim Hinsch

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Jan 1, 2002
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mondongo said:
The DR feds abscond with OVER 20% of GDP while the USA counterparts only swindle slightly less than 20%.

Do you have the breakdown of where the money comes from (hotel tax, imports, ITBIS, income tax, ...)?

It's tough to compare who pays the most in taxes because we pay in so many different ways and how much we pay varies by our income, where we live, living and spending habits, honesty in in deductions and income on tax forms, ...

For example, in the USA, the typical adult is paying income taxes, social security contribution, state income tax, possibly county and city income tax, sales tax, property tax, and special taxes that include gasoline, tobacco, and alcohol.

If all Dominican taxes were eliminated tomorrow, but the import tax increased to 150%, prices would go up, Dominicans would technically not be taxed at all based on income, and one might say that Dominicans are not taxed.

I would expect the government take as a percentage of GDP to be very high in the Dominican Republic because so many taxes arrive from foreign sources and the DR is not exactly industrialized (low GDP).

In the USA, I pay over 50% of my income in federal, state, and local income taxes and FICA payments. Then I pay another 7% on what I spend in sales tax, plus high taxes on alcohol and tobacco, and don't forget property taxes.

When it is all said and done, the USA is very heavily taxed:

A single homeowner in the USA earning US$60,000/yr and owns a home that cost US$300,000, pays about 70% of his income in taxes.

Federal: 35%, or US$21,000
State: 5% or US$3,000
Local : 2% or US$1200
FICA: 7.6% or US$4500
Sales: US$1400
Gasoline: US$500
Alcohol/Tobacco: US$2000
Property: US$7000

Total Taxes/Yr: US$40,000 or 68% of US$60,000.

That's a damn lot of taxes.
 

sjh

aka - shadley
Jan 1, 2002
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almost correct jim, property tax and mortgage interest are deducted from the salary before the fed tax in calculated...


still a huge tax burden anyway.,...
 

Jim Hinsch

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Jan 1, 2002
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Throw in another another several percent for taxes paid on utilities, restaurant bills, house supplies, phone calls, major purchases sales tax, airline tickets, hotels, rental cars, dry cleaning, ... Then ficture that just about anything not locally produced has an import tax.

The list goes on and on, and in the end, we are near 75% of our gross incomes going to some kind of a tax and then 75% of the profits anybody makes on the money we spend is also going for taxes.

I wonder how that compares to other countries. As far as I can tell, were are already damn near socialism.
 

MommC

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Mar 2, 2002
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And if you think taxes in the US are high......

come visit the Canadian Tax Depts and see how much more we pay as compared to our American friends.
However in all fairness at least some of our hard earned dollars to go to worthwhile social programs such as universal healthcare (even with all its' flaws still one of the best in the world), education, arts and cultural activities, and social housing and welfare/mothers allowances (they should all be put to work if you ask me!!!),diability pensions etc.etc.
All I've seen in the DR. is big jeepetas, fancy houses, businesses etc.etc.etc. while basic healthcare,food and shelter,clean water and affordable utilities,sanitation are beyond the means of most inhabitants.
 

harold

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Mar 23, 2002
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I find this to be unfair taxing in the US

Why is it that we have to pay social security taxes all ou lives then when we are seniors we get paid the same amount as some elderly immigrant that has never worked in the US? MY grand mother receives $600 of social security and she has never worked in her life. I don't think that's fair! At least that doesn't happen in DR.
 

lhtown

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Jan 8, 2002
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Let us not forget the tax that is not a tax, but costs more than many taxes. That is to say, silly regulations and red tape. In the US, it can take over a week just to FIGURE your taxes. Here in the DR, it can take dozens and even hundreds of steps in paperwork just to PAY the silly import tax and get your container on the road-why not just verify that it really is yours, unload it off the boat onto your truck and have a drug inspector or two at the site where it is unloaded? Another pet peeve of minie is that the biggest traffic jams often occur at the toll booths as everyone has to wait their turn so that they can pay to have better roads and so it goes on and on in both countries albeit in different ways.

I think a simple flat income tax or better yet a flat sales tax to cover all government expenses(perhaps with some few exceptions for special services such as patents and so forth) would save all of us a bundle of dough and certainly a lot of time. The "problem" is that it would not benefit special interest groups specifically giving them special advantages. Also, it would make it very difficult for politicians to hide how much is truly paid in taxes. However, it would benefit everyone equally and greatly.
 

Cleef

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Feb 24, 2002
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Perhaps a tangent, but

...consider this little nugget that I've come across a few times. I don't promise this to be true - and I apologize in advance for not verifying it's credibility, but perhaps some others can verify - I certainly don't doubt it's validity. Not related to the DR directly, but somewhat relevant to the topic when comparing the grand ole' USA to others.

As it's been detailed to me:

Perhaps we are asking the wrong questions during election years. Our Senators and Congressmen do not pay into Social Security and, of course, they do not collect from it. Social Security benefits were not suitable for persons of their rare elevation in society.

They felt they should have a special plan for themselves. Many yearsago they voted in their own benefit plan. In more recent years, no congressperson has felt the need to change it. After all, it is a great plan.

For all practical purposes their plan works like this: When they retire, they continue to draw the same pay until they die, except it may increase from time to time for cost of living adjustments.

For example, former Senator Byrd and Congressman White and their wives may expect to draw $7,800,000.00 (that's seven million, eight-hundred thousand), with their wives drawing $275,000.00 during the last years of their lives. This is calculated on an average life span for each.

Their cost for this excellent plan is $00.00. Nada. Zilch. This little perk they voted for themselves is free to them. You and I pick up the tab for this plan.

The funds for this fine retirement plan come directly from the General Funds -- our tax dollars at work! From our own Social Security Plan, which you and I pay (or have paid) into -- every payday until we retire (which amount is matched by our employer) -- we can expect to get an average $1,000 per month after retirement. Or, in other words, we would have to collect our average of $1,000 monthly benefits for 68 years and one (l) month to equal Bradley's.

Social Security could be very good if only one small change were made. And that change would be to jerk the Golden Fleece Retirement Plan from under the Senators and Congressmen. Put them into the Social Security plan with the rest of us and then watch how fast they would fix it.
 

GringoCArlos

Retired Ussername
Jan 9, 2002
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(REALLY long)

I am no genius, but I read the laws
that can negatively affect my life if I am too lazy to not know them.

I pay taxes in the DR = Plenty of them. I am legally required to do so
as a resident who lives and works here in the DR. >Income taxes
(the top rate is at 25%, for now) > ITBIS = 12% on most purchases,
( but things like rice and beans and other basics in the supermarket
are not hit with this), THIS TAX was started by Leonel at 8 %. Hipolito raised it to 12% effective January 2001. >gasoline taxes that are used to service foreign
debt, >vehicle taxes (however the more costly part of licensing a
vehicle is wasting the better part of a day to go and do this every
year), >toll taxes in and out of Santo Domingo, just raised from 5 pesos to 15 pesos on private cars, >about 15% tax on all airline tickets, and Hipolito is talking
about soon tacking on another 12% on top of this tax as a luxury,
>property taxes, (yes there are annual property taxes if your
property is worth more than RD$1.3 million, or if your building doesn't
cover more than 30% of the surface area of the lot for city
properties, and if you don't believe it, wait until the day you want
to sell a property like this, and can't get your title transferred
until you pay up along with penalties, and then there is >Rental
property income tax on the rent collected.

Companies must pay> IDSS -this is social security taxes, >workers
insurance, >severance pay of 21 days pay per year employed, >28 days
Preaviso if you are going to shut down operations, >14 days vacation
for the first 5 years employment, >about 11 or 12 holidays a year,
>a month's pay for Christmas Bonus, > 10 % of profits to the
employees every year, > 1.5% of gross revenue upfront as a tax to
the DR government (if your company nets 10% profit, you can figure
that you just paid 15% of net profit as corporate income taxes in
the DR. =General Electric had revenues last year of what, probably
80 BILLION dollars, and paid less corporate income taxes to the US government
( USD $-0-) than a mildly successful colmado is forced to pay
(1.5% of estimated revenues) to the DR government every year, UPFRONT. Hipolito started this practice of forcing every company who has revenue over RD$600,000 a year to cough up the dough BEFORE they make it.

Before you believe that ANY government will EVER lower or eliminate a tax they put in place, do this. Right now, go to your kitchen and look at the fosforos by the stove. One of the first taxes they put in place as a "luxury" tax in the old days was on matches, and in the DR they still pay this tax today, 100 or more years later, of a few centavos per package.

And one last thing, go read the fine print about your new Dominican
Residency = that part about how after 3 years, you will be legally
required to file an annual return listing all of your assets, in
the DR and internationally, and then paying an annual asset tax if you
really want to be legal about it. Don't believe me, just go read the
laws or ask your attorney. Check out the DGII website.

Soon to come (November 1st) is a new government=required, mandatory
health insurance plan that will cost about 11% of payroll for all
employees, including the owner, AND a government-required pension
plan that will also end up costing about 16% between the employee
and the employer's contributions.

I call this "continuously rising taxes" , and so would any reasonable
person reading this.

As far as US taxes, as a US citizen working outside of the US and
its possessions, you receive the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion as
long as you file your annual 1040 along with the 2555 form, and
others. That will eliminate income taxes on the first $80,000 of
foreign earned income this year. If you don't file the 1040, and the
IRS finds this out and notifies you before you file, you may LOSE
the exclusion and be taxed on the full pop. Go read the IRS laws,
and the instruction book for the 2555 form. Yea, yea it will never
happen, right?

BUT, my friend, what about the FICA taxes? If you are employed by
a US company, you must still pay 7.65% to the US Treasury for the
Employee portion of the FICA tax. That isn't exempted. And if you
are self=employed here, you MUST STILL pay the US 15.3% for the full
pop on FICA. I call that a tax, and so would any reasonable reader.
Get studying pal.

And then you state, investments in the DR banking system are tax=free.
This is true. Tax=free to the DR government, BUT NOT tax=free to the
US government. You still must report that interest as passive earnings
and pay income taxes to the US with your 1040 and Schedule B.
Have you done this if you are required to?

Oh, and another thing Jazz= if you ARE socking your money away into
the DR banks to earn great "tax=free" interest, did you also remember
to file your Foreign Holdings report annually with the US Treasury,
giving them the amounts and all foreign account information as well,
so they can keep track of your money?

Yea, yea, only a sucker would do that right? Are you kidding, after
9/11 they are tracking all money intensely, and the DR is helping
them do it with US citizens/residents. If you have more than $10k total
in foreign accounts and don't report, what can happen? Oh yea,
that's called a FELONY under the US laws, and if you are convicted,
kiss your US Passport goodbye forever. That should make your travel
planning easier.They will want you right where they can put their
thumb on you, and John Ashcroft would do it in a heartbeat, to make
some poor sap like you a Poster Boy for Big Brother, to help make the
Homeland secure, and to get a bigger budget next year.

As far as credentials, I have 10 years experience in buying and
selling goods internationally, and then shipping them in both
directions by the container load, to and from the US, Canada and
other nations via both ocean freight and air freight, and I do all of the paperwork involved.

I understand the tax laws and employment laws in 3 countries so far. (PS Jazz- if you
did set up a Dominican company as you were suggesting earlier in
the year, here on DR1, did you also report your new Dominican company
on your IRS tax returns as a foreign controlled company as they
require you to do, or was that a line of bullshit to fill up a few days
too?)

As far as retaining my US citizenship, I don't want ANYTHING (Other than something in return from Social Security for which I have paid) from the
US Government, except to be left alone to live my life as I choose to
live it, without their interference and without being forced to pay
even more taxes to them.

Oh, almost forgot. When I turn 65 here in the DR, I am planning on
popping out three more kids. I won't have to pay. You see, as the
"Below 18 years of Age children of a 65+ year old recipient of
Social Security", my newest children will be entitled to receive 50%
of my benefit, up to a maximum total payout of 150% of my benefit
until they turn 18 years old. Truly twisted, but they wrote the laws.
Let the Games Begin!

I will still receive the Social Security benefits that I have already
PAID FOR, and I
don't think that I will have any trouble finding 3 very beautiful
18 year old dominicanas who want to have a baby and as part of the
bargain they will each receive (in current dollars) about RD$16000 a
month for the next 18 years. That's better than being a bottle for
the DR government, and you don't even have to vote to get it. The
children I have now will already be over 18, so they can't receive
this wonderful gift from me AND Uncle Sam. I will do my part to end
poverty in the DR, and help 3 dominican families in the process.

Hell, the chicas may pay ME to do it. hehehe- imagine a 65 year old
Gringo Sankie.

I have no intention of insulting you here Jazz. I don't really care
about who you are, or what you believe in, or what you do. But I
do care about information getting posted here on DR1 being accurate.

I now fully expect you to start digging to find something that I
have written here that is miswritten, or incomplete. Go for it.
Maybe you will truly get an education about this in the process, that
applies to your situation. I understand my own situation and am doing
everything possible to avoid problems for me.

edited by Pib to add: Rule no. 1.b :rolleyes: applies to all of us. No personal attacks please.

(and later, portions deleted containing personal information about Gringo that doesn't really matter to anyone else).
 
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GringoCArlos

Retired Ussername
Jan 9, 2002
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An alternative to raising taxes in the DR

OK, now think about this. Tell me what services does this, or ANY D.R. government provide to its citizens and visitors , that cannot be done by privately held, fee-charging businesses at a much lower cost to the consumer (the taxpaying public)

I can think of 3 areas (only) =

You have to have a President and a Vice President, so other nations know who to call when they need something, and a future model for the photos on the currency (that means your jobs are safe Hipolito/Milagros).

You need national protection in terms of a military force, to protect the sovereignty of the nation and keep the civil peace when the UN or the US won't.

You need a judicial system that is fair and uncorrupted, to adjudicate disputes between people and entities.

Everything else can be turned over to the highest bidder. Without a big governmental machine to run and pay for, the fees charged would be miniscule compared to now. And, without a congress or functionarios, there aren't many people left to bribe. With the savings from eliminating the Congress alone, you can pave every street in every pueblocito in the country, and still have some left. The private companies have motivation to lower costs that leads to higher profits.

New laws can be made in elections of the voting public. Hire a law firm to draft the new proposed laws and then put it on the ballot. If you don't like the way traffic is regulated, fire Candelier and put the enforcement job out to bid again. The highest bidder wins, and bids are unsealed on TV just like they run the Lottery.

Don't like the educational system?= go to a different private school. There AREN'T any public schools anymore.Want to get tough on the national borders? Hire more watchiemen and give them shells. Electricity problems? Buy it from another more reliable generator, or use another transmission company.

Can you imagine a private tax collection system that is paid only on commission?