Speaking Spanish

ClippedWing, already you are ahead of the large majority of non-Spanish speaking people who move to a Spanish speaking country because of the courses you have taken. You know about irregular verbs, about the tenses, and you have a vocabulary of "correct" words rather than the slang words heard on the street and in the campo. You will be able to converse with an educated person without embarrasing yourself.

In the archives you will find a thread from not too long ago where there was a lengthy discussion about whether it is better to speak good Spanish or street Spanish if you wanted to communicate with people. Most indicated that good Spanish was more important than street Spanish, though learning some of those words to use in the appropriate setting was desirable.

So with your background, you are well on the way. If your only concern about the DR is that the people speak fast, I wouldn't worry about that as you can get most to slow down, and educated people are generally easily understood anyway. There are some people that I come in contact with on the "street" that seem to find it impossible to talk if they have to slow down, but most can manage it if you continue to remind them (m?s despacio).

Shortly after I arrived in the DR, I was offered a one-year job at a university in the US. While there, I took the first year Spanish course. I have been grateful ever since that I had the opportunity to do so. At the end of the year, I had a better vocabulary than many you meet on the street and what I knew was "correct" Spanish.

Just as you won't learn "Proper English" in the United States,

you won't learn "Proper Spanish" in the Dominican Republic!Winston Churchill once said;"Great Britain and the United States,are two peoples separated by a "common" language"! What do you intend to "do" with your Spanish? If you intend to "live" in the DR,I would suggest you study "Dominican" here.If you intend to reside elsewhere,why not study the language where you intend to live?
As to how long it takes "someone" to become fluent in a language,there is no answer.People have different skills/abilities/efforts/time/"gifts" at their disposal,when it come to learning a language,just as in all other endeavours.
My sister has a "Masters" in Foreign Languages,including Spanish.When she visited my wife's parents home severall years ago, here in Santo Domingo,she understood almost nothing,and claimed she got a severe headache just trying!!!!
My "Guidelines" for learning a "new" language are:
1. Don't be afraid to make mistakes! Don't wait until you feel confident,just start talking!Make a "Fool" of yourself! Don't be embarased!
2 "Imitate" what you hear.Listen to the radio,and imitate what is being said.You don't need to know what you are saying,that will come later.Get those "lips" and that "tongue" moving to the "beat" of the new language!
3 "Total Immersion"!!! Listen to the radio in the car.Play "Language Tapes" in the car and at home.Before you go to sleep is also good.Watch "TV" in the Language you are studying.Read,and write the new language,Read,"Outloud"!
4 Most important,"Live" in the Country of your language if atb all possible!
5 Study not only the language,but the history and culture of your new language.Read the local newspapers,eat the food,sing the songs,discuss the politics."Become" the language!!!!
If you follow these "Guidelines" you WILL learn the language.Then all your "Ex-Pat" friends who are not willing or able to put forth the effort to learn the "Local"language can ask you,"How come its so EASY for you to learn the language?":ermm: Cris Colon

Here is the link to the thread I mentioned. You may find it of interest. http://www.dr1.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22894&highlight=learning+Spanish

cw mija,
IMO keep studying until you re-locate. Unless someone else is paying for Berlitz, find a cheaper alternative. Watch TV in Spanish. Rent movies in Spanish (if possible).
Once you get to the DR, be immersed. You will be any way. It will probably take you only 6 months to get accustomed to so much, language included. Don't worry about people learning English. It's a whole different learning curve.
Like cccccccc said. Besides, once you find your Dominican papi, everything will change...
I was a little kid when I went there. I learned enough in 11 months to place in the advanced high school Spanish class. After that class, I went to the University. Skipped all the grammar classes and went straight to the literature classes.
You are way ahead, so plan on increasing your vocabulary and hang on for the ride.
mk

With your training the process might be faster

If you can avoid being in a bunch of ex-pats all the time, you can lear your Spanish quite quickly. You might enjoy enrolling in a university course of Spanish for Foreigners here in Santiago. We have very few foreigners here.

total imersion can be a pain, it is certainly tiring and prone to cultural shock, but it remains the best way.

Don't worry about speaking fast. I never could understand the first five minutes of any movie made by Cantinflas....But you get the hang of it soon enough.

HB

Not an English speaker but..I just want to subscribe to CC's list.
It's a good one.

I've also, as a matter of principle, stay away from fellow
countrymen when abroad, but don't be too fanatical about it.
Right now I'm with friends from 50+ countries and I treasure my
one Norwegian friend here more than anything, she's handy
when culture shock sets in.

Total immersion is the best way, so just go for it and use
embarassement constructively. My friend here laughs at me
when my mistakes are too bad, and as much as I hate her for it,
I'll never repeat those errors. I do the same when teaching
others. There will be tears and fists flying, but by God do they
learn fast. You already have a good background so.. ( Better
than mine.. )

Bring cookies in a box, it helped me a lot even though I ate most
myself.

Places: Argentina should be great ( though I personally don't
like the accent ). I might be in the Norwegian embassy there.
Colombia should also be a very good alternative, I like the
Spanish there. May be a bit more expensive.

Honestly, IMHO and I do love the DR, I don't really like the
way they speak there. It's not really the Queen's Spanish. Still..
Nice place. Though learning the language in the country you
intend to stay is sensible, learning it in another is good too, as
you'll get to see more.

Time: One year is better than six months if you can. IMHO.

Street Spanish or "proper Spanish"? Erm.. Try both??

I suppose all that has to be done is to book a ticket, change
socks and go. ( That's what I do, apart from the change of socks
maybe. ) If you have the balls to go for it you probably have the
brains to succeed as well. ( Strictly speaking that's not quite
true, but it's meant as a nice and encouraging lie. )

If you can afford it, hire a tutor

I found someone on a former job, a cuban by birth, and people who heard me speaking spanish to the mexican cleaning people put me in touch with her. And I have had a one-hour lesson per week with her almost every week for the last three years. Normally she tutors struggling high-school and college students so I got a student rate, I guess. Less than half the price of Berlitz, anyway.
Tutors are great for the really really hard stuff, like past imperfect subjunctives and even seemingly simple past imperfects. You're gonna hear them all the time. All the time. Might as well know what it is you're hearing. They are also helpful for those thousands of idioms you won't find in your dictionary, but spanish-speaking people know them by heart. It's not really slang and it's not always proper, but it's the way people talk. And that's what you want to know, the way people talk.
The best phrase that I have learned to appreciate from my tutor is this: "Yes, Mike, your sentence is grammatically correct and all of the words are correct, but, nobody talks like that."
It has been worth every penny.
Good luck!
st louis mike
gringo cum laude

Ken, I reread the thread that you quoted and it truly turned out to be an excellent one.

Without hijacking this thread, could someone post the names and authors of good Spanish books that could help with the process of learning the language. History, Novels -- whatever. I'm just getting to the stage of reading my granddaughter's (2 years old) books, but Ven Aqui, Daisy!, gets a little old after a while.

Chris, anything you read will help. The Spanish Readers Digest is good because articles are short and interesting. For books, I prefer the same sort of novels that I read in English. I buy used paperbacks when in Santo Domingo, but new paperbacks are available in Sosua. Productos Sosua has some, for example.

You will read more if you read the same sort of material you enjoy in English.

Most important is a good dictionary, not one of those very abridged pockbook versions that only give a couple of meanings for the words.

ClippedWing, I'm way behind you with only less than a year of Spanish and starting from zero base. Your plans for your future sound excellent and an interesting way to go. Good luck! You seem to have done so many Spanish courses. What is it that is holding you back?

My experience in the DR so far, is that in business I get exposed to a lovely clear and very understandable Spanish. It is the local dialect that gets me. I'm just at the stage where my 'ears are opening' and I can understand almost everything - if it not too fast. I'm beginning to hear the differences between 'good' and 'bad' Spanish. I pick up the 'bad' phrases in Cabarete on the beach from the Sankis and vendors. Speaking is still a problem. Somehow thinking what to say seems so much better than the actual words that come out of my mouth. It sounds so bad, that I just close my mouth again. So, now it is time to read out loud as I'm beginning to figure out more than two words in any one sentence.

I would like to start reading (besides the newspapers as I don't believe what I read) something decent. I read few novels excepting a few mindless pages to fall asleep by at night. I could not stand the stress of having this mindless chill-out evening reading in yet another language. Mostly my taste goes to history, philosophy, current affairs, social science, metaphysics and the odd psychological thriller. Having so little of the language as yet, I go to the bookstore and stand in front of the shelves feeling quite dumb - without the ability to really choose something and not knowing many authors. Hence the request for a reading list.

The absolute best learning tool for me that Richard brought after a recent visit to the US, is a little electronic 'talking' dictionary. You key in the word - if it is a verb you get the conjugations, if it is a noun, it gives you the english, as well as a couple of sentence fragments illustrating context. Then you can key the talk button to get the pronunciation. Just a great thing and so much easier than paging through a dictionary. Richard uses it to help him do correspondence and I use it for everything - so, there is a continual struggle between us to get to it first.... This is a great thing!

One caution when using dictionaries. They make you better at translation than fluent speech. Use sparingly. Better to request a verbal description (or role play) to get the jist, than to use the dictionary. IMO.
mk

SPANISH CAN BE LEARNED ACCORDING TO WHAT YOU NEEDS ARE FIRST

I used to teach Spanish for medical use to the Kaiser California, employee. The lesson where designed for the need of each person. It sounds like what you needs technical ussage for your individual field as a first part.

Once you get into the ussage that you are familiar with, the common everyday ussage will also fit into place.

Good Luck!

mkohn said:

One caution when using dictionaries. They make you better at translation than fluent speech. Use sparingly. Better to request a verbal description (or role play) to get the jist, than to use the dictionary. IMO.
mk

Click to expand...

Maybe so, mkohn, but when you are reading a book, your best bet is a dictionary.

Current pedagogy suggests that you continue reading and define the word via the context. (Remember I just went through an adolescent literacy course). This way you are not interrupting the flow of what you are reading, and you use what you know to piece together meaning. I read Garcia Marquez this way and never feel like I am missing out, instead it's like a series of small victories when I figure out a word.

Chris, I started with El Alquimista by Paolo Coelho and found it a great and painless read. You might want to pick it up and give it a go. Then I started reading Los Vecindarios by Rosario Ferre and found I had to devise meaning from context. Only when it was absolutely killing me did I pick up a dictionary. I really loved that book by Ferre--it was my first "hard" book that had storyline I could really get in to and enjoy. When I was done I felt like I had done something for my Spanish!

When in POP last I picked up a great book of short stories, all modern stories by Dominican authors--half those words aren't even in a dictionary!

I became "very nearly fluent" in three years

I had had no formal language training when I decided to teach myself spanish. Not a high school class. Nothing.

I concentrated on "book-and-tape" series because I had a 45-minute commute one way each day and I had a tape casette player in my car. I didn't spend a fortune. You can get all these on Ebay, or Half.com or Amazon used books. Look them up by title.
1. Learn in your car spanish, vol 1,2 and 3 (penton)
2. Vocabulearn, vol 1,2 and 3 (penton)
3. Living language spanish verbs
4. Living language ultimate spanish, intermed & advanced
5. Barron's mastering spanish, level 1 and level 2

I spent less than $250 for all of these, buying them all used. You can spend more than that for your first Pimsleur course.

One book you must read is Breaking out of Beginner's Spanish by Joseph J Keenan. It is the absolute best. I've read it three times. Go to amazon.com and you'll see about fifty glowing reviews of this book.

Music - For three years I listened to nothing but music recorded with spanish lyrics. And I have very eclectic tastes. From the lilting boleros of Luis Miguel to ranked out ska from Desorden Publico.

Dictionary - you should have an unabridged at home, preferably one that is spanish only, and one that is english/spanish, but don't neglect to carry a pocket dictionary with you or near you all the time. I like the Oxford. Maybe there are some better.

TV, movies - as much as you possibly can, no subtitles. If there's a spanish-language radio station you can get, that's perfect.

Books - I usually read trash. Spanish versions of Stephen King and the like. Not the most challenging but I like the feeling when I realize I've read five whole pages and haven't picked up the dictionary. I'm one of those people who has to know the meaning of the word before I can go on. It worked for me with english. How better to command a splendiferous lexicon?

Of course, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that you have to find people to talk to, as much as is humanly possible. For me, it was the cleaning crew in my building, all mexicans, most of them women who, I have to say, are a lot more helpful than the men. And I was very lucky when I was introduced to my tutor. She's the best and has taught stuff I'd have never found in a book. (Can you say "I'd have never found" in spanish?)

This is what worked for me. Might work for you. Don't give up. Don't quit. Good luck!
st louis mike

[B]MaineGirl[/B] said:

Chris, I started with El Alquimista by Paolo Coelho and found it a great and painless read. You might want to pick it up and give it a go.

Click to expand...

My husband had an Argentinian tutor (luckily he never taught him "vos" instead of "tu"). An important part of the learning process was to read Spanish books. Coincidentally his very first book was El Alquimista (which he hated), then Juan Salvador Gaviota (which he hated even more). Now he is tackling my, er, grown ups'-books.

I can't say much about learning Spanish, which I was born knowing already , but from learning English half decently I suggest that you just live it: make it a point to only read books in Spanish, watch Spanish TV, listen to Spanish music and get as many Spanish-speaking friends as possible, if only to practice.

Now you all know. I only have English speaking friends to practice my English, no other reasons, I don't even like your lot. Hee hee!