Warning for Fish Eaters

Ken

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Both residents and visitors need to be aware that they may come down with Ciguatera if the eat fish. Marine finfish most commonly implicated in ciguatera fish poisoning include the groupers, barracudas, snappers, jacks, mackerel, and triggerfish. Many other species of warm-water fishes harbor ciguatera toxins. The occurrence of toxic fish is sporadic, and not all fish of a given species or from a given locality will be toxic.

I'm posting this warning because 6 people I know have come down with ciguatera after eating fish during their vacation visit in the Dominican Republic. During the years that I was cruising the Caribbean in a sailboat, I met many people who had or had had ciguatera.

There is no way of looking at and/or smelling a fish to see if it has ciguatera. And neither cooking nor freezing kills the toxin. That is why people living in Canada, for e xample, can come down with ciguatera after eating a fish that was shipped north in a freezer.

Initial signs of poisoning occur within six hours after consumption of toxic fish and include perioral numbness and tingling (paresthesia), which may spread to the extremities, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. Neurological signs include intensified paresthesia, arthralgia, myalgia, headache, temperature sensory reversal and acute sensitivity to temperature extremes, vertigo, and muscular weakness to the point of prostration. Cardiovascular signs include arrhythmia, bradycardia or tachycardia, and reduced blood pressure. Ciguatera poisoning is usually self-limiting, and signs of poisoning often subside within several days from onset. However, in severe cases the neurological symptoms are known to persist from weeks to months. In a few isolated cases neurological symptoms have persisted for several years, and in other cases recovered patients have experienced recurrence of neurological symptoms months to years after recovery. Such relapses are most often associated with changes in dietary habits or with consumption of alcohol. There is a low incidence of death resulting from respiratory and cardiovascular failure.

Most recently, 4 or 6 people who returned to Canada on Monday are suffering from ciguatera that they got from the fish they ate Sunday night. Today they consulted their family doctor, who sent them to a gastroenterologist--but neither had any idea what was causing their symptoms. WhenI learned about it, I urged them to go back to the doctor and tell him they suspect ciguatera.

Clinical testing procedures are not presently available for the diagnosis of ciguatera in humans. Diagnosis is based entirely on symptomology and recent dietary history.

Quick diagnosis is important because there is a product that is given intraveniously that can significanty speed recovery. But if treatment isn't started soon after the symptoms appear, nothing can be done but let it run its course.
 

dms3611

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2 ways "islanders" test for ciguatera.......

1). Feed to dog and watch overnight/day if dog gets sick and dies.......

2). "Lick" the "cleaned" fish against tongue and lips and wait to see if "numbness" begins to set in.....(fairly rapid)

By the way....Ken, do you know what type of fish these folks had eaten? I have seen several cases also....tend to have always been those "preditor type fish" that feed on reef fish species.

Best, Dave
 

bochinche

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Jun 19, 2003
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you might as well warn people that they can get sick with salmonella, toxoplasmosis, etc. as well.

ciguatera can be contracted from any fish anywhere in this part of the world.
in fact it is more prevalent in miami than the dominican republic.

surely, we don't need another reason to scare people away, or stir up any more paranoia for those that already live here.
 

Andy B

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Ciguatera can NOT be gotten from ANY fish, anywhere. It is mostly associated with reef dwelling fish that feed on the poison's source: coral. That's why parrotfish and other coral-feeding fish are prime carriers of the poison. Parrotfish are served in many Dominican restaurants because they are easy to catch.

I've never heard of a case of ciguatera contracted from any striking fish such as dolphin/dorado, wahoo, king mackeral, tuna, sailfish, marlin, etc. Why? It's simple. They do not feed on reef fish. The exception to this rule is barracuda.

Also, the poison is cumulative; meaning a certain level has to be achieved within the fish before it becomes toxic. That's why large fish of certain species such as grouper and snapper will be toxic and the smaller one's of the same species that inhabit the same reef will be safe to eat.

And finally, besides the Bahamian observation that if flies wouldn't land on a fish laying on the dock it was infected, there was a test being developed some years ago by a researcher in Hawaii but I don't know if it was ever perfected. He had achieved good results and was working on it further.
 

Kuda

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Jan 1, 2002
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DMS3611

Are you serious that you would kill your dog to see if the "Kings" food is fit for consumption? Is that the value you award to this creature? Or were you temporarily stupified? Enquiring minds want to know.
 

Ken

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Why would information about ciguatera keep people from coming to the DR, bochinche?

Why did I start this thread? Because people who contract ciguatera are returning home to doctors in the north who don't seem to have a clue as to what they have. Important that people who enjoy eating fish be aware that if they experience any of the symptoms on the list in my post after eating a fish dinner that they should inform the doctor that they ate fish probably caught in the Caribbean and ask him to consider ciguatera.
 

dms3611

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Like I said....2 ways I have seen "islanders" test....

....but while I am "stupified" at the moment....can I offer you a meal of some nice barracuda we caught the other day ?...............I would like to see if its safe for eating.......


2 ways "islanders" test for ciguatera.......

1). Feed to dog and watch overnight/day if dog gets sick and dies.......

2). "Lick" the "cleaned" fish against tongue and lips and wait to see if "numbness" begins to set in.....(fairly rapid)

By the way....Ken, do you know what type of fish these folks had eaten? I have seen several cases also....tend to have always been those "preditor type fish" that feed on reef fish species.

Best, Dave



islanders islanders
 

ERICKXSON

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Ken does that poison gets your joints swollen? and can only one person be infected while others won't even if they ate the same fish or fish fried together?

Erickxson
 

lalla

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Mar 10, 2003
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DMS3611.....

why dont you volunteer your services so fishes can be tested on you......just say "AHHHHHH".....

its cruel for you to say something such as test it on the dog and watch it die......

Lalla
 
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Ken

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ERICKXSON, all fish caught in same area may not have the toxin, but two people eating same fish should both get ciguatera.

Swollen joints not on list of symptoms. Affects usually evident in nervous, gastrointestinal, and cardiac systems.

One of the most recent four I know that have come down with ciguatera is a poster on this board. The tingling extremites mentioned in the list of symptoms in my thread-starting post are one of the things making her very uncomfortable.

The doctors she consulted in Canada on Monday had no idea what could be causing the symptoms. Last evening, after getting my "diagnosis", she went back to the clinic and asked the doctor on duty for the treatment for diagnosis. He said he remembered having read somewhere about ciguatera, but that was about all she got. He told her he wouldn't prescribe any treatment until a blood test confirmed that she had ciguatera. If you go back to my first post, you will see there is no diagnostic test for ciguatera, blood or otherwise.

My purpose is starting this thread was not to discourage people from eating fish. Everybody who eats fish doesn't get cigutera any more than everyone who drives on the highway gets killed in an accident. But anyone eating fish caught in the Caribbean should be aware of ciguatera and its symptoms. And if you should experience any of these symptoms, you should consult a doctor, report you have eaten fish that could come from the Caribbean, and ask that ciguatera be considered. If the doctor knows nothing about ciguatera, you should insist that he contact someone who does.

Everyone doesn't seem to experience the same symptoms, nor in the same order. The first couple that I know got ciguatera within the past couple of months started with severe gastrointestinal distress, then got nervous system symptoms later. The most recent 4 seem to have started with nervous system symptoms.

PS: No matter where you are when you eat a fish carrying the toxin, you are going to get ciguatera. For example, someone in northern Canada who eats a fish that was caught in the Caribbean, frozen, and flown to Canada is going to come down with ciguatera.
 
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dms3611

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This is so cool!!!!!!!!

The Moderator, uses the Edit button again!!!!!

Again....for the 3d time....I did not suggest anyone should feed a fish they believe to be poisoned to any of the "fine breeds" of dogs associated with the Dominican Repubic ...I have simply observed this to be a practice within fishing communities of the DR that have "suspect" fish.....they also practice "tasting raw fish" in an attempt to "sort out" suspected fish.

Ken...can you post additional interesting posts so I can get myself into more trouble?

Best, Dave
 
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Criss Colon

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"Timex" will soon be moving this thread to the "General Forum"

If you don't stop calling eachother names!We consider "Jerk" to be a "Term Of Endearment" over there!!!!

"Nice Doggy",Want some fish?:dead: :dead: :confused:

CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCcris
 

GypsyGRL

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Apr 26, 2003
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Thanks for the warning

Thanks for the thread, Ken
Before I leave the country always see the public health nurse to check for any vaccinations required for the place I'm visiting. I was warned about the fish, what to eat or not to eat, it was a warning for the entire carribean area, not just DR.
My concern was at the A.I. we stayed at the buffets were just labelled "fish"!! ie: fish in garlic sauce, etc..
What was the fish?? We played safe and just didn't eat what we didn't know.
I am truly sorry for my fellow CDNs who are suffering.
 

Ken

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You are right, Gypsy Girl. Ciguatera is not specific to the DR. People in the US, Canada, and elsewhere get it from eating imported fish that contains the toxin. And in any Caribbean country, it is always a possibility when you eat fish.

There are no shots that you can get prior to a trip that will prevent you from getting ciguatera if the fish you are served contains the toxin. And the quality of the restaurant makes no difference, either. The cases that I know of that occured recently all were caused by fish eaten in the best restaurants in Sosua. The chef looking at the fish has no way of knowing which is infected with the toxin.
 

Hillbilly

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Jan 1, 2002
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I think that the original post is okey

Normally, small fish do not have toxic levels of the ciguatera.

Larger fish like grouper, barracuda and snapper do. So just eat smaller fish and you should be fine.

I eat at "Donde Johan" all the time and no negative results, and all they serve is parrot fish! And Presidente and tostones...

HB
 

Andy B

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"Ciguatera is not specific to the DR. People in the US, Canada, and elsewhere get it from eating imported fish that contains the toxin. And in any Caribbean country, it is always a possibility when you eat fish."

Ciguatera is found just about everywhere in the world where there are coral reefs. As I said in my earlier post, reef dwelling fish get it from either nibbling on the coral itself or in the case of predator fish such as grouper or snapper, feeding on small fish that primarily nibble on the coral. In colder waters that do not support the growth of coral reefs, you do not find ciguatera in the pescatorial population.