Believe me if you want, but this is the truth

Golo100

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-Dominican Republic is the only country in the world where this was possible: a gold mine(La Rosario), a state lottery(Loteria Nacional), 3 major banks in less than 6 months(Baninter, Bancredito, Mercantil) went bankrupt. The odds against a gold mine going bust are as high as winning the lotto twice in the same month. No state lottery in the world other than our has gone broke.

-Born in 1977 from Dominican parents, one of them a junkie and drug dealer, Felix(the fake)Sanchez had a selfish reason to fake his love for Dominicans. After failing to make the U.S. hurdling team in 1999 by placing 6th., he also came in 4th. at the 1999 Pan Am Games. Felix could not patiently wait his time and was so ambitious and in need of fame, that he turned his back on the country that gave him everything, the good old USA. He sought Dominican agents and buscones to help him join the Dominican team to further his career, not his patriotism. This guy is so fake that if given a good contract in the U.S. he would just as fast turn his back on DR.

-Some streets in Santo Domingo are named after heroes as fake as Felix Sanchez. For instance Antonio De La Maza Street. This guy participated in the Trujillo assasination. De La Maza was a Trujillo protege, so powerful that Trujillo made him a regional "godfather" in the Haiti border towns. Trujillo gave him a license to cut down every fine lumber tree in the towns of Restauracion, Loma De Cabrera and the western Cordillera. He owned the entire lumber business in the border. Trujillo gave him a military rank of liutenant, yet all the top officers, including generals in the area had to report to him and kiss his ring. He owned everything, including the best women. Young girls had to be hidden by parents when his visits to towns were announced. He visited Trujillo every week. His problem with Trujillo had to do with the death of his brother. His brother was the pilot who flew the kidnapped writer Jesus Galindez to DR to be tortured by Trujillo for his betrayal of "El Jefe". De La Maza brother was a killer himself who talked too much and Trujillo got rid of him. Galindez also was a traitor, who was brought from Spain by Trujillo to teach his wife good manners and writing skills. Galindez was paid a juicy salary and lived like a king under Trujillo. But then he went to the U.S. for a doctorate degree and used his Trujillo family secrets for his thesis. Trujillo got rid of this worm too.

-General Juan Tomas Diaz, another Trujillo assasination hero, was an ambitious officer who flourished under Trujillo and had great influence with El Jefe. He cut down many of his fellow officers with his gossip. He would see Trujillo and badmouth other officers to get his way. He was as feared as De La Maza and had dreams of becoming like Trujillo. He ended up in a ditch for his treason.

-Colonel Francisco Caama?o De?o, another fake hero of the 1965 Revolution. This guy was always a lowly, undisciplined and low rated officer, who went from one end of the armed forces to the other. He was in the army, police, navy and other special assignments and always failed. He was the son of one of the smartest and most distinguished officers ever in the DR, General Fausto Caama?o. General Caama?o was as impressive as Rommel in his looks. Yet his son was a sweaty mess who always perspired over his shirts and never wore t-shirts. Caama?o failed at everything including the Revolution. His failed leadership led to Lyndon Johnson ordering the invasion. Then Caama?o went to Cuba and drove Fidel Castro nuts. Castro finally allowed him to go on a suicide invasion to DR and Balaguer cut him down to pieces. This is the greatest fake hero of our nation. Almost every officer who helped Caama?o was as undisciplined and low life as him. I can tell their stories one by one.

-Hipolito Mejia is trying to cut down his opposing candidates in his own party(PRD) by calling them losers, who cannot add any votes and have never won anything. Yet Hippo was always a loser before luckily winning the presidency in 2000. He ran for congress several times and also as a vice-presidential candidate with Pe?a Gomez and always came last. He never gathered more than 6% of the vote in prior elections to 2000. Yet he discards his opposition because he claims they cannot get more than 6% of the vote. He was secretary of agriculture for another fake hero, President Antonio Guzman, a man who was such coward he killed himself in his desk at the national palace. He drank heavily and was a peasant mouth like Hippo. It would be great if Hippo joins him.

There are so many fake heroes in DR that if anyone cares to ask for more, just drive around and give me names and I will give you their rap sheet. How about Padre Billini? Duarte? Balaguer? Pe?a Gomez? Viriato Fiallo? Ramon A. Castillo? Winston Arnaud? The Mirabal Sisters, Tavarez Justo?

If you asked me, only two men are the true leaders of this nation. Trujillo and General Luperon. All the others were sissies created by both or by the Spaniards.

TW
 

Tony C

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Jan 1, 2002
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Every country has that same problem.

In the US we are deluged with streets, parks bulidings and even Holidays named after people who don not deserve that distinction. Can you believe that in Miami there is actually a street named Jose Canseco boulevard?
One of biggests insults here in Miami is that they have actually named a elementary school "Toussaint L'Overture." Of course this was done to appease the Haitian community. I talked to a member of the school board when they were in discussions about the name and I brought up the fact that for Dominicans he is considered a genocidal murderer. She was aware of the fact but in confidence she admitted that the name was going to happen because the haitians have political pull in their region but that Dominicans have less political pull than the Homeless.
 

rubio

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Apr 28, 2003
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Golo:

In your opinion, What made Trujillo a true leader?

-Rubio

(Africa has far WORSE politics and issues compared to any country in the western hemisphere. But that is merely my two cents.
 
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Criss Colon

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"SOMEDAY" a dominican will accept a criticism of something dominican,

without resorting to a smoke screen! "It is WORSE someplace else!!!"Every race,or country has some group,or country that they can say that they are "Better Than".To bad the Dominican Republic only has "Africa",and Haiti and the Haitians to "claim" to be better than!!!!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
 

arturo

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Mar 14, 2002
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Re: "SOMEDAY" a dominican will accept a criticism of something dominican,

Criss Colon said:
without resorting to a smoke screen! "It is WORSE someplace else!!!"Every race,or country has some group,or country that they can say that they are "Better Than".To bad the Dominican Republic only has "Africa",and Haiti and the Haitians to "claim" to be better than!!!!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

too true!

It's boring really. To be fair, it is somewhat of a regional culture thing; I see it all over the Caribbean. In this country, it seems to me, it is more pervasive than what I notice elsewhere. Only the Church regularly stays away from this kind of scapegoating. It reaches the highest levels of the government and society and it is a major obstacle to social and economic progress.

A recent and sad example is the government's ballyhooed anti-child abuse "initiative." What could be a more powerful tool to combat a heartbreaking problem shared by every world region has turned into a blame game against "extranjeros de mala fe." Reading some of the typically overblown pronouncements about tourism and law enforcement officials joining forces to combat the problem, you are left with the impression that the problem would disappear if it weren't for foreigners. What about the rapist priest?

Health care is inadequate because too many Haitians are in the system. Are other Haitians hiring their countrymen to harvest cane and work construction sites?

If you take the "logic" of these attitudes to the next step, the President ascribes all national problems to his PLD predecessor and some other country is responsible for the PRD gaining power...

Never mind the bollocks, what will the peso's bottom be????????
 

samiam

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Mar 5, 2003
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Golo100 said:
[B Galindez also was a traitor, who was brought from Spain by Trujillo to teach his wife good manners and writing skills. Galindez was paid a juicy salary and lived like a king under Trujillo. But then he went to the U.S. for a doctorate degree and used his Trujillo family secrets for his thesis. Trujillo got rid of this worm too.
TW [/B]
Golo100,
Very interesting. I agree on some cases but your Galindez theory is is crap! Galindez could not have been a traitor to trujillo because he was never involved with the cause that kept Trujillo in power. Galindez was an Euskadi who was kicked out of Spain by Franco for being against the regime and in favor of an independent pais Vasco. Although Galindez fought for him in the civil war. He came to the DR were he was hired as Angelita's tutor and then fired by Trujillo because he mixed with the 'wrong crowd'. After WWII, Galindez was named ambasador of the Pais Vasco to the US in New York where he unsuccessfuly tried to throw dirt on Franco's regime. He then mixed with Dominican expatriates and wrote his famous book. By then he had pissed off Franco and Trujillo and was 'taken care off' with american assistance and not entirely by Trujillo.
The fact is that Franco wanted Galindez 'out', Dwight wanted an airbase in Spain so he gave to OK to snuck him out of New York, and Trujillo, like the good chopito (or is that chapita) that he was, did the dirty work. ;)
 

Golo100

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Samian

I will accept your version, as long as you accept mine. Remember, I hold the edge because when Galindez was "judged" by the gran jefe he had just left DR to get his degree.

Regardless of whta you think, galindez was a two-faced nobody, who tried to crew Trujillo. And you dont play with a major leaguer using aluminum bats.

Galindez was brought in to teach Mrs. Trujillo , Do?a Maria. He helped her write two books to be used as text books in the DR school system to help build her credibility as an intelligent, educated woman. But she was a brainless fat slob. Actually, he wrote the books for her. Galindez was paid handsomely and was very well treated by Trujillo. Trujillo never accepted traitors.

As to Trujillo and leadership, here is a man who stood tall over a period a lawlessness before and during the U.S. occupation and rose from nowhere as the top military leader in DR. He was the favorite of Americans because of his brashness and toughness. He got rid of all the gangs and mob leaders that ruled the interior. He took over the greatest natural disaster ever in DR, Zansenon hurricane and built the country as fast as 1,2.3 and helped get the Americans out and return our republic to Dominican hands. He was able to bring in the intelligentsia into his government and used the best brains to rebuild. He got everyone to cooperate. He was feared and respected. He was a nationalist who kept everything in DR and never permitted DR to get into foreign debt. We were debt free for 30 years and our currency was stronger than the dollar. We had silver and gold currency and even a penny that had nothing to envy the U.S. penny. He plainly built this country from the ashes.

TW
 

samiam

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Mar 5, 2003
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OK, Golo I give you that el jefe did re-build build the country and I am sure today we'd have a very different looking little island. I also agree with some of your perspectives on these so called Heroes Nacionales

I like to come up with my own conclusions (I think you do too), thats why I dont think all about Trujillo was bad nor all good but I do agree he did alot of good for the country in its economy, its development and its organization as a state at a cost of human right abuses that was popular among similar regimes around the world. That was the norm back them and it would be unfair to judge him under other circumstances. Its just like the thing about the 12 a?os, people strongly critisize the era for obvious reasons but they fail to acknowledge the fact that we had a more prosperous and peaceful transition to democracy than most of latin american brothers, say in Argentina, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Peru, Venezuela. Even Puerto Rico had its own subversives and they were all loyal peaceful leftist protestors or freedom revolutionaries. When in fact today they'll bve called for what they really where, terrorists! If your are smart you will put the man under the context of the circumstances in which he acted before passing judgement.


So there are my two cents. I dont have to agree 100% nor even 10% with what you say but I'll defend to death your right to say it.



:smoke:
 
Apr 26, 2002
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So we have exactly two legitimate Dominican heroes according to Golo. All else are low class chopos. And one of the two heroes is none other than Generalisimo Rafael Molinas Trujillo!

Now let us assume that Trujillo were still alive, in good health (yes, even his prostate) and running the country. Would the country look just like it did in 1959? Prosperous and orderly?

Exactly how would Trujillo have stopped the population from trippling since 1959? More likely, I would think, that he'd contribute to it.

And exactly how would Trujillo have stopped the telecommunications revolution and the cross-migration with New York that has dramatically changed the character of the DR - and not necessarily for the better? The Soviet Union couldn't do it, and China, with about a billion people more than the DR, is struggling.

What was the source of Trujillo's wealth? The nation's raw materials, of course, and mainly sugar. Well sugar ain't worth squat anymore. So what would Trujillo have switched to? Tourism? Not a good match for a brutal dictator - the Canadians wouldn't like it. Drugs and money laundering? More likely. Can you say "Noriega"?

Without even going into the relative benefits of a dictatorship in 1959, to think that the DR today, with its tourism and remittance based economy, would be better off with a 20th century style dictatorship, is pure folly.

Now stop fantasizing and start sweating about the real value of your Hippo Bonds.
 

Golo100

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Jan 5, 2002
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Porfirio

Trujillo was not born to live forever. In fact, he was within a few years of natural death because he was sick with cancer. So while he lasted he achieved what no other Dominican has achieved yet, including Balaguer.

But let suppose that he were alive. Just about the year he died, another dictator was taking a hold in Cuba(Castro), who is still there and has brought great advances to Cuba, such as great health and education. Yet, due to the nature of his dictatorship and his alienation of western powers thru communism, the side of economic prosperity and certain freedoms has not flourished. Note that freedom under Trujillo was many times more open than in the Cuban regime. So with his form of state sponsored capitalism, Trujillo would have succeeded in maintaining DRs economy well today. We would still own our electricity.

Our migration to the U.S. would not have been that great. Remember that before Trujillo died our community abroad was minimal, while Mexicans at that time were already a big minority in the US. We began to lose Dominicans to New York when our resources began to end up in the pockets of speculators who took our riches away and those washed away by corruption. Even considering population growth, why did Pinochet succeed economically with a Chilean growing population? How was Fujimori succeeding? How come arab dictatorships keep their economies well, yet democracies like Mexico and Venezuela with the same oil resources cannot? Simply put, dictatorships are more efficient. Other examples are Generalissimo Chan in Taiwan and Franco in Spain who turned over power after his death peacefully and Spain prospered. Spain never lost a step due to Francos legacy.

Many people who were not pro-Trujillo activists or given special priviledges succeeded under his regime. My family was well off and I was brought up as a jevito during Trujillo. I did the same things jevitos do today, even better. I had good cars, money and fashionable clothes. I was never forced to do anything in his regime. But I never had to fight his regime either. Why should I when I was living in Sarasota Avenue, the newest chic street in Santo Domingo, went to the best schools(La Salle and CMS) and had girls I did not know what to do with.

I used to hear that people were forced to attend Trujillo parades at the Malecon. Why would it take any force to have so much fun? His parades were sights to be seen. His air force would perform beautiful air shows over the sea. His armored divisions were impressive at the time. I can live to tell I saw real operative P-51s doing aerial maneuvers. Trujillo in full uniform was an impressive sight. Even Ramfis Trujillo looked kind of cool and drove supercars to parades. The diablo cojuelos were in their prime during Trujillo and the tradition of the La Vega Carnival grew from that. Maniceros had real heated peanut with charcoal heaters, instead of todays cold wrap paper. Frio Frios were for real. Have you noticed we dont have frio frio de melao today? The ice used for todays frio frio is not fit for human consumption. Everything is fake today, even our coin and money. I have Trujillo gold and silver coins. I could have driven forever without worries about gasoline. We had two drivers at home, two maids, a gardener and several messengers. We could use up all the water we wanted and drink it from the fawcet. Our mountains had 100% tree coverage. The island looked as good as when Columbus discovered it. We had to pay ransoms to kill woodpeckers, instead of trying to save them. Almost every household had "cotorras" at home as pets and stiil there were millions in the wild. Today they are endangered species. Manaties were a common sight. We had the "juron", a rodent that disappeared after Trujillos death. I dont remember ever seeing an unpaved street or a highway with potholes.

TW
 

suarezn

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Feb 3, 2002
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Porfio: What you must understand is that Golo yearns for those days, because he grew up in one of those few families that benefited from the regime, unlike 98% of the people. Likewise if you ask, any of the people who are benefiting from Hippo being in power what kind of government this is, they will tell you is the greatest ever (I have a friend who thinks so. Of course he got taken care of from the Bonos). The rest of the population (those who don't have drivers, maids, and gardeners at home), obviously think otherwise.
 
Apr 26, 2002
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Suarezn,

I sympathise with people who long for the old days of stability, prosperity and, most of all, order. But what Golo may not realize is that there are also millions of crotchity old Brazilian, French, Indian, Japanese, etc., guys out there waxing on about the good old days just like Golo.

I also don't have a knee jerk reaction against people who have fond memories of Trujillo or Balaguer. There is something to be said for order and stability and "making the trains run on time."

I think Golo failed, though, in trying to come up with examples of where modern dictatorships have been successful. His Middle East examples are inapposite. There are no passable democracies in the Middle East outside of Israel. What the wealthy Middle Eastern countries have in common is petroleum. What the poor middle eastern countries have in common is no oil (with the exception of Iraq, which has oil and is poor). Israel, which is a democracy and has no oil, is also relatively wealthy. Egypt is not a democracy and is dirt poor. (Oman is probably a pretty good example of a dictatorship that works fairly well, though. It's hereditary sultan, in contrast to Trujillo, is a well known humanitarian and benefactor.)

Whether the "good old days" were really so good is, I agree, a matter of perspective and priorities. Certainly, there is less order around the globe today almost everywhere.

Were Trujillo alive today, he would simply adapt to the modern environment to match his drive for money and power. I'm sure even Golo would not have Trujillo as a highly moral paternalistic benefactor. Accordingly, that adaptation would probably, given changes in Caribbean economics, take a Noriega-like turn towards drugs.
 
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arturo

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Trujillo and the good old days...

Let's cut to the chase, shall we? Those who long for the old days of Trujillo are - as another poster pointed out - part of the very small minority who profited from the reign of terror and the ongoing oppression.

Truth be told, the Trujillo glory days were simply a middle ground between the slavery based plantation economy and today's watered down oligarchy. The vast majority of Dominicans derived little benefit from either system.

Modern human rights conventions don't permit the exploitation that formed the basis of Trujillo's economic self determination. So, whether or not false pride allows those suffering from Trujillo lust to admit it, erasing foreign debt and expelling foreign economic influence (Yanquis fuera de Quisqueya!) would ultimately turn the country into another Haiti. All the Western Union money transfers in the world couldn't prevent it.

Shoot the messenger if you choose, but it won't change the facts.
 
Apr 26, 2002
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Hooray, I smell our first globalist! Arturo, where have you been? Now please proceed to defend the IMF and World Bank's conduct in Latin America! Please tell us how the average Dominican is better off today from an economic perspective than in 1959.

By the way, lots of people who gained no bonos from the Trujillo regime liked him anyway and long for him now. Golo is an example from the privileged class, but I know plenty of older working class people too.
 

arturo

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I agree that many remember Trujillo fondly

I don't think it's reasonable to evaluate the IMF or World Bank on a regional basis, unless you think you would fall off the edge of the earth if you sailed too far away from the Samana peninsula. But seriously, those are world bodies with a mission that extends far beyond Latin America. Of course, that does not alleviate the pain of people in the region but that's for another thread. I don't personally agree with some of the neo-colonial aspects of life in the Domincan Republic and elsewhere in Latin America.

I decline your invitation to defend either body. To the extent anyone here is not familiar with world markets and the IMF and World Bank's roles in them, it may be worthwhile to EXPLAIN rather than defend. That would likely frame the discussion so it would be more productive or informative.

I think you are spot on about sizeable segments of the population who have fond images, if not memories, of the Trujillo era. Is that more a reflection of Trujillo and his policies or of Hipolito and his policies???
 
Apr 26, 2002
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Re: I agree that many remember Trujillo fondly

arturo said:
I don't think it's reasonable to evaluate the IMF or World Bank on a regional basis, unless you think you would fall off the edge of the earth if you sailed too far away from the Samana peninsula

... To the extent anyone here is not familiar with world markets and the IMF and World Bank's roles in them, it may be worthwhile to EXPLAIN rather than defend. That would likely frame the discussion so it would be more productive or informative.

Well, Latin America is more than the Samana Peninsula. In fact, it's a sizeable portion of the world. Since you seem to like metaphors, then please allow me to say that your point seems to be that the IMF's policies in Latin America are defendable because their complete failure in the region led to winter coats being distributed on time in Siberia last year.

I have asked on a couple of occasions, in other threads, for anyone who can to come forward and defend IMF/World Bank policies in Latin America to do so. If not that, I would really like to see a good explanation for them and why the region must be tortured in the name of globalism, as you offer. You sound like you are well educated from this perspective. Please let me know if you would contribute if I revived a thread about this topic in the Debates area.
 

Golo100

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Jan 5, 2002
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The argument is moot

I think this whole thing remains a matter of taste. Funny however how after living thru all these differnt regimes after Trujillo and being on top financially throughout, I still choose Trujillo as the best. And this is not just my imagination. I have better housing, better cars, better clothing and earn more today, yet I still believe he was the best.

Something that people ignore is that poor peasants, working people and the great majority of Dominicans liked El Jefe. It was only a tiny minority who disliked him. However, when a regime falls everybody claims they were against it. Notice how Russians turned against communism in a hurry during Perestroika. Today many yearn for the good old days of order. Our new theorists take the responsibility to change peoples minds as time goes on and try to erase the memory of the population.

Many people today accept Caama?o and the revolutionaries of 1965 as heroes because they are told to believe this. But hardly any of them experienced it. Our new leaders like Hippo, Leonel Fernandez, and the candidates for office for 2004 are in my opinion midgets of leaders. Balaguer, considered to be the greatest president ever by a large segment of the population was but a messenger boy for Trujillo and his personal puppet. Yet he was able to fool for generations all our new leaders today, including Pe?a Gomez.

One must take a frame of reference in these comparisons to be truthful. This is why a baseball player like Richie Henderson, who faced the likes of Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Roger Clemens, as well as newer stars Pedro Martinez and Mike Mussina was better than all first hitters in history.

I am afraid some of the people giving their opinions here were not here then, may not be here now or know very little about what they are talking about. Reading books is not the real thing. We can all do that. I suggest those who give their opinions here tell me why they know about this and their pedigree. I will respect you more for it.

I am not an old fart who just misses the past. I am even considered by young people who generally sorround me as being too liberal. I like electronic music over any other type(Future Sound of London, Orbital, Autechre), I still enjoy fast cars over jeepetas, and prefer younger women over mature women. But I know good government when I see it. I know a good leader from a lousy one. I still choose Bill Clinton over Kennedy, Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Johnson, Truman,and the rest. I lived in the USA under these men, except Truman. I just did not read about them.

TW
 

arturo

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Mar 14, 2002
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inappropriate subject matter here

I don't think the world economy has enough to do with the Dominican Republic that we should be talking about it on this forum.

Getting back to Trujillo, the most significant difference between him and others of his ilk (Noriega, Saddam Hussein, Josef Stalin, and Robert Mugabe) is that Trujillo and his realm were far more isolated than any of the others. That is to say, he was and is of little consequence outside of this very small country.
 
Apr 26, 2002
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Re: inappropriate subject matter here

arturo said:
I don't think the world economy has enough to do with the Dominican Republic that we should be talking about it on this forum.

Getting back to Trujillo ...

I understand. American expats and tourists don't always know enough about the IMF's impact on the Dominican Republic to fashion a good argument. But you shouldn't "hit and run". If you don't think that the IMF is a live topic of interest that directly affects Dominicans - at this time more than ever before - than I can only presume that you've acquired your vague and lightweight endorsement of the IMF by reading their annual report while sitting on a lounger at an all-inclusive resort at Punta Cana.

In other words, "bahk, bahk, bahk, bahk".
 

arturo

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Mar 14, 2002
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final word from me

I dislike repeating myself but it seems to be necessary just now: I decline your invitation to defend the World Bank and IMF.

I have not defended or attacked either body. If there is someone on this forum interested in engaging you in such a debate, that person is not me.

Does anyone have a good recipe for mangu con queso?