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Cuba
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Why would anyone want to travel to Cuba. Unless you have family there. If you are American, I would think before going to Cuba.
I went last year to see family I had not seen in 42 years. I stayed in Havana at a "5" star hotel. Let me tell you this. It took me over a month to get over the disaster I saw. It was like time travel. I went back 100 years. Aside from being robed by the local POLICE, no AC at the 5 star, and being constantly bothered by the prostitutes, I had a great time.
Stay in the DR.
If you want to experience Cuba, just walk over into Haiti...........same thing.
I went last year to see family I had not seen in 42 years. I stayed in Havana at a "5" star hotel. Let me tell you this. It took me over a month to get over the disaster I saw. It was like time travel. I went back 100 years. Aside from being robed by the local POLICE, no AC at the 5 star, and being constantly bothered by the prostitutes, I had a great time.
Stay in the DR.
If you want to experience Cuba, just walk over into Haiti...........same thing.
SFgal said:Are there any issues getting to Cuba from DR?
I am planing a long trip over Christmas and New Years and wanted to plan a side trip to Cuba.
How much can I do there and how much do I need to plan ahead?
Thanks!
You can fly on Cubana a few days a week and the flight is under 2 hours. Interestingly a NZ guy I met tried to pay with cash at SDQ airport and they said they had to have a credit card (see the following), so I am not sure how a Yankee would even buy a ticket at all.
You can do whatever you want with US$ cash, NO US credit cards, NO US travelers checks. You pay with US at dollar stores and get useless convertible (tourist) pesos in return at par with the US$ when in reality it is like 25-30:1. But you cannot have real Cuban Pesos, it is against the law. So you cannot buy the total lack of everything in Cuban stores, nor would you want the lineups nor do you have the ration books for some things anyway.
You need to ask the Cuban immigration agent ( you will only see the top of his head when you go to passport control) NOT to stamp your passport or be prepared to be fined up to $7500 US for violating the various treasury laws you guys have about spending money there. Speak Spanish or learn how to ask that quick.
Of course if you were Canadian like me you would have no worries at all.
DON'T lose your tourist card. Like the DR you have to have it to leave and unlike the DR there is hell to pay if lost.
Other than old Havana (a UNESCO site) it is dirt poor and falling apart and dog-ass ugly and while people might want to live to US standards you will hear about the "triumph of the revolution" at least 10,000 times when locals refer to the most mediocre improvement of some kind like a power plant or bridge etc.
OTOH I think it beats Haiti as a side trip and you won't need malaria prophylaxis.
Travel to Cuba
My close friends traveled to Cuba, from Canada, last Spring.
They always go through their travel countries by getting in touch and staying with as many local families...and they had a great time. They reported the Cuban people as being fabulous, humble and very gracious. They didn't spend a lot of time in Havana, perhaps that is why they didn't run into the kind of trouble the other two posts have referred you to. But, whatever you do, remember that the Cuban people, like all people, have self respect and appreciate others who take the time to make the effort to get to know and appreciate them.
Since you are from the Us do be careful about getting in trouble with your passport, as others have noted. But, to be very honest with you, some of the comments about how bad Cuba is are very much from people who, obviously, don't have an appreciation for other cultures...certainly watch out, but to suggest that going to Cuba is like hell or some such thing...well that is not at all the experience my two friends had. I urge you to go and I am sure you will have a very interesting experience...kind of like life.
PS MY friends visited the areas west of Havana, and south of it in about a 150 mile radius.
My close friends traveled to Cuba, from Canada, last Spring.
They always go through their travel countries by getting in touch and staying with as many local families...and they had a great time. They reported the Cuban people as being fabulous, humble and very gracious. They didn't spend a lot of time in Havana, perhaps that is why they didn't run into the kind of trouble the other two posts have referred you to. But, whatever you do, remember that the Cuban people, like all people, have self respect and appreciate others who take the time to make the effort to get to know and appreciate them.
Since you are from the Us do be careful about getting in trouble with your passport, as others have noted. But, to be very honest with you, some of the comments about how bad Cuba is are very much from people who, obviously, don't have an appreciation for other cultures...certainly watch out, but to suggest that going to Cuba is like hell or some such thing...well that is not at all the experience my two friends had. I urge you to go and I am sure you will have a very interesting experience...kind of like life.
PS MY friends visited the areas west of Havana, and south of it in about a 150 mile radius.
Try cubalinda.com They have flights from Santo Domingo and different packages.
Just make sure you take enough US cash with you. If you're returning to SDQ after Cuba, I wouldn't worry too much about the US customs. They'll never have to know you were there unless you tell them. If you're traveling on a US passport Cuba will NOT stamp your passport unless you ask them to. I specifically asked to get mine stamped and they asked me, "Are you sure?" I said Yeah.
There's a lot to do in Cuba. Different people have different experiences... Yeah, It's dingy and dirty and smelly and they shove the revolution down your throat and try to pass it off like it's some kind of success and you kind of believe them until your'e walking down the street and get asked if you have soap to give, every five seconds.
But have fun and just enjoy the experience... Cuba is not like any other country in the world.
Just make sure you take enough US cash with you. If you're returning to SDQ after Cuba, I wouldn't worry too much about the US customs. They'll never have to know you were there unless you tell them. If you're traveling on a US passport Cuba will NOT stamp your passport unless you ask them to. I specifically asked to get mine stamped and they asked me, "Are you sure?" I said Yeah.
There's a lot to do in Cuba. Different people have different experiences... Yeah, It's dingy and dirty and smelly and they shove the revolution down your throat and try to pass it off like it's some kind of success and you kind of believe them until your'e walking down the street and get asked if you have soap to give, every five seconds.
But have fun and just enjoy the experience... Cuba is not like any other country in the world.
santiago de cuba.
Go see cuba before the fall of castro. Cuba is still fixed in the time-frame of the 50's. If you like old american cars in good condition then take a camera with you to shoot pictures of restored old american cars along with their proud owners.
The real cuban experience begins if you speak spanish. This way you get to meet the real cubans who will tell you how the life is exactly in cuba. Superficially they all support the revolution but if you really talk to the people, they will tell you how afraid they are of castro and his party. There are watch-dogs everywhere and one never knows who will turn in who.
Yes, cuba is a poor country and people live below the american poverty line level.
In santiago de cuba, people speak and look like dominicans. They are very kind and friendly. They often will not want to talk to you as they know the authorities are watching but if you walk behind them and get away from the touristy areas then you can actually sit down with them in their homes and talk the real talk. Cubans are very educated and highly intellectual folks. The education system is very good and free.
Now for the guys who are going there for sex tourism:
The cuban women are beautiful and loving. You can have any girl you want for about 10 dollars in santiago de cuba. Another 10 dollars will get you a room in secret houses for a few hours. If you are smart then don't pick up aggressive women at the touristy areas. You will pay more and get less. Hang out in front of the universities and pick from the cream of the crop, students. They are more docile and trouble-free.
Food is good in cuba, usually the hotel gives you breakfast and dinner (6pm), no lunch. You can buy delicious cuban sandwiches at selected restaurants all over town and pay only 2-3 dollars for a big bite. The dollar stores are everywhere and you don't have to wait in long lines. The prices are decent and you will get your change in cuban coins with real dollar value. Which means you can use these coins as dollar but only in cuba.
The rooms in hotels are decent and come with working A/C. Santiago de cuba is located on high altitude so basically no a/c is required at night.
People like americans and castro certainly doesn't want to make problems for any dollar spending tourist. The only gringos who get into any trouble in cuba are the ones with shady activities ex: looking for sex with underage teens, kiddy-sex, pedophiles, gay activities or simply stupid enough to be looking for drugs. Some people just don't think and fall in to trouble anywhere they travel.
If you go there with a mind-set (prepared) that you will be traveling to a 3rd world communist country and be prepared to see serious poverty, then you will enjoy cuba to the fullest.
Go see cuba before the fall of castro. Cuba is still fixed in the time-frame of the 50's. If you like old american cars in good condition then take a camera with you to shoot pictures of restored old american cars along with their proud owners.
The real cuban experience begins if you speak spanish. This way you get to meet the real cubans who will tell you how the life is exactly in cuba. Superficially they all support the revolution but if you really talk to the people, they will tell you how afraid they are of castro and his party. There are watch-dogs everywhere and one never knows who will turn in who.
Yes, cuba is a poor country and people live below the american poverty line level.
In santiago de cuba, people speak and look like dominicans. They are very kind and friendly. They often will not want to talk to you as they know the authorities are watching but if you walk behind them and get away from the touristy areas then you can actually sit down with them in their homes and talk the real talk. Cubans are very educated and highly intellectual folks. The education system is very good and free.
Now for the guys who are going there for sex tourism:
The cuban women are beautiful and loving. You can have any girl you want for about 10 dollars in santiago de cuba. Another 10 dollars will get you a room in secret houses for a few hours. If you are smart then don't pick up aggressive women at the touristy areas. You will pay more and get less. Hang out in front of the universities and pick from the cream of the crop, students. They are more docile and trouble-free.
Food is good in cuba, usually the hotel gives you breakfast and dinner (6pm), no lunch. You can buy delicious cuban sandwiches at selected restaurants all over town and pay only 2-3 dollars for a big bite. The dollar stores are everywhere and you don't have to wait in long lines. The prices are decent and you will get your change in cuban coins with real dollar value. Which means you can use these coins as dollar but only in cuba.
The rooms in hotels are decent and come with working A/C. Santiago de cuba is located on high altitude so basically no a/c is required at night.
People like americans and castro certainly doesn't want to make problems for any dollar spending tourist. The only gringos who get into any trouble in cuba are the ones with shady activities ex: looking for sex with underage teens, kiddy-sex, pedophiles, gay activities or simply stupid enough to be looking for drugs. Some people just don't think and fall in to trouble anywhere they travel.
If you go there with a mind-set (prepared) that you will be traveling to a 3rd world communist country and be prepared to see serious poverty, then you will enjoy cuba to the fullest.
I didn't know you were an authority on Cuba AZB
Do you travel there often ? I don't want to make this into a political post but....... you said " food is good in Cuba" with 11 million people starving. You should have said Tourist can eat.
"The education system is very good and free." have you ever looked at what they teach ??.. I happen to have a "History Book" from secondary school from Cuba. Fidel, Che, and Raul. in that order. According to this book, Fidel made Cuba, nothing happened before 1959.
I'll give you what you say about the women and prostitutes. After all Fidel himself has said " We have the best educated and cleanest whores in the world".
I would never again go to Cuba. The place is very sad.
Matt
Do you travel there often ? I don't want to make this into a political post but....... you said " food is good in Cuba" with 11 million people starving. You should have said Tourist can eat.
"The education system is very good and free." have you ever looked at what they teach ??.. I happen to have a "History Book" from secondary school from Cuba. Fidel, Che, and Raul. in that order. According to this book, Fidel made Cuba, nothing happened before 1959.
I'll give you what you say about the women and prostitutes. After all Fidel himself has said " We have the best educated and cleanest whores in the world".
I would never again go to Cuba. The place is very sad.
Matt
US Cracks Dwon on Cuban Travel
Just moments ago, President Bush made an announcement that unauthorized travel by US citizens to Cuba will be strictly prohibited, and those who choose to ignore the travel ban will face serious consequences.
Personallly, I would not take the chance. You may want to look at the most latest news developments for a complete update.
Just moments ago, President Bush made an announcement that unauthorized travel by US citizens to Cuba will be strictly prohibited, and those who choose to ignore the travel ban will face serious consequences.
Personallly, I would not take the chance. You may want to look at the most latest news developments for a complete update.
Cuba - Travel and education
Let us not leap into criticism about Cuban education from a perspective that the teaching of Castro...Che..etc. makes it
an awful place, albeit a place different in government control than many countries. A look at US History books shows very little real questioning of the moral superiority of the US. That Castro has improved the education compared to the authoritarian Bastista regime is a matter of record, not opinion. The fact that people there have less choice in the matter, also a matter of record, in no way removes the reality that in the US there are many many freedom restrictions...though much more subtle...such as travel to Cuba, or the right to show displeasure with the US actions worldwide without being labeled a traitor...or being able to steal a presidential election because one party controls the Supreme Court. At least in Cuba the people know the government is going to crack down. In the US the illusion of freedom of speech is propagated daily...then the government squads of Ashcroft are ready, at any time, to chill you out or demand more "Patriot Act protections." It is all a matter of perspective.
Let us not leap into criticism about Cuban education from a perspective that the teaching of Castro...Che..etc. makes it
an awful place, albeit a place different in government control than many countries. A look at US History books shows very little real questioning of the moral superiority of the US. That Castro has improved the education compared to the authoritarian Bastista regime is a matter of record, not opinion. The fact that people there have less choice in the matter, also a matter of record, in no way removes the reality that in the US there are many many freedom restrictions...though much more subtle...such as travel to Cuba, or the right to show displeasure with the US actions worldwide without being labeled a traitor...or being able to steal a presidential election because one party controls the Supreme Court. At least in Cuba the people know the government is going to crack down. In the US the illusion of freedom of speech is propagated daily...then the government squads of Ashcroft are ready, at any time, to chill you out or demand more "Patriot Act protections." It is all a matter of perspective.
Are you drinking your own bathwater?
Overall you sound like one of those old recidivists in Moscow who forgot midnight knocks from the KGB, gulags, summary executions in government basements, and the starvation and forced cannibalizations that happened in the Ukraine. Let's see....according to whatever philosophy you're subscribing to, all that's OK because "the people know the government is going to crack down". Or is it you just have an affinity for dictatorships?
We're not going to wait much longer to see how history treats Brother Castro......neck tie party time on the island when he goes tits up. Wait 'till the secret police files are opened...going to make the Stasi look like Boy Scouts...especially those lovely B&W movies of execution squads working overtime at that Havana prison.
In disappointment, P
Where in the world do you come up with nutty stuff like this? The first sentence alone is not even at the intellectual level of a high school sophomore...and it goes downhill from there. Surely you're smarter than that. Or, maybe not. One shouldn't assume too much.rediwat said:A look at US History books shows very little real questioning of the moral superiority of the US....that the reality that in the US there are many many freedom restrictions...though much more subtle...such as travel to Cuba, or the right to show displeasure with the US actions worldwide without being labeled a traitor...or being able to steal a presidential election because one party controls the Supreme Court. At least in Cuba the people know the government is going to crack down. In the US the illusion of freedom of speech is propagated daily...then the government squads of Ashcroft are ready, at any time, to chill you out or demand more "Patriot Act protections." It is all a matter of perspective.
Overall you sound like one of those old recidivists in Moscow who forgot midnight knocks from the KGB, gulags, summary executions in government basements, and the starvation and forced cannibalizations that happened in the Ukraine. Let's see....according to whatever philosophy you're subscribing to, all that's OK because "the people know the government is going to crack down". Or is it you just have an affinity for dictatorships?
We're not going to wait much longer to see how history treats Brother Castro......neck tie party time on the island when he goes tits up. Wait 'till the secret police files are opened...going to make the Stasi look like Boy Scouts...especially those lovely B&W movies of execution squads working overtime at that Havana prison.
In disappointment, P
Cuba Revisited
Must respond to Pasha as, obviously, she has been "educated" in some "enlightened" country, which, of course, doesn't have sins to bear. The fact that the US has expressed moral superiority to the rest of the world, let alone Cuba ...and Castro communism..is well documented...by history alone. For example, going back to the 1840's with the use of "manifest Destiny" ..."it is the destiny of the US to take over and educate, after subjecting, all the
colonial pions in the world, continuing through Teddy Roosevelt and the Roughriders...."Speak softly and carry a big stick," oh, and I almost forgot the way the US became a nation...by forcing Mexico to relinquish Texas and later the Gadsden Purchase..forcibly...to get Arizona and New Mexico and also the forcing of Spain to give up claims to California and also the Northwest...on right through the 100 (look it up) + times in this century, alone, in which US troops have been sent to foreign soil...all in the name of democracy you say? I think not. You had better study your history, girl, before you start calling my stuff "nutty."
Oh, and by the way, I was in no way calling Cuba any bastion of liberty. Castro has mangled the revolution he started way beyond repair. I am not arguing for Castro communism...nothing excuses taking liberty from people in the name of some ism...whether it is communism...or capitalism. Guess why Dominican Republic is still such a "developing country." Well, from the 1930's until early 1960's Dictator Trujillo controlled it with an iron fist...at the behest of the US conglomerates. Until the CIA realized he was becoming a liability...when, mercifully, he was forced out. Dominican Republic is still, obviously, suffering from this monstrosity of American intervention today. Study history more closely...not just pro-American history.
Must respond to Pasha as, obviously, she has been "educated" in some "enlightened" country, which, of course, doesn't have sins to bear. The fact that the US has expressed moral superiority to the rest of the world, let alone Cuba ...and Castro communism..is well documented...by history alone. For example, going back to the 1840's with the use of "manifest Destiny" ..."it is the destiny of the US to take over and educate, after subjecting, all the
colonial pions in the world, continuing through Teddy Roosevelt and the Roughriders...."Speak softly and carry a big stick," oh, and I almost forgot the way the US became a nation...by forcing Mexico to relinquish Texas and later the Gadsden Purchase..forcibly...to get Arizona and New Mexico and also the forcing of Spain to give up claims to California and also the Northwest...on right through the 100 (look it up) + times in this century, alone, in which US troops have been sent to foreign soil...all in the name of democracy you say? I think not. You had better study your history, girl, before you start calling my stuff "nutty."
Oh, and by the way, I was in no way calling Cuba any bastion of liberty. Castro has mangled the revolution he started way beyond repair. I am not arguing for Castro communism...nothing excuses taking liberty from people in the name of some ism...whether it is communism...or capitalism. Guess why Dominican Republic is still such a "developing country." Well, from the 1930's until early 1960's Dictator Trujillo controlled it with an iron fist...at the behest of the US conglomerates. Until the CIA realized he was becoming a liability...when, mercifully, he was forced out. Dominican Republic is still, obviously, suffering from this monstrosity of American intervention today. Study history more closely...not just pro-American history.
AmericanBasher...oh boy!!
I was born in Wausau, Wisconsin...grew up in Northern Michigan, Wisconsin then Illinois. My Dad fought for the US in the Pacific Theater in World War II. Don't try that anti-Americanism crap on me. Have you heard of the Bill of Rights? # 1 is -freedom of speech. It is and always has been "patriotic" to think and speak freely...with specifics.
You know...because someone expresses ideas you don't agree with, it isn't enough to just label them ("nutty) or (American basher). If you don't agree, which obviously you don't, then at least deal with them...to dismiss them without engaging them, with some intellectual endeavor, is not going to do the job. Sorry, it's just not. Just like the President saying Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, and that was why we went to war, and then, later, saying, well, even if they didn't, well, the war was still justified. Nope. Not enough. Deal with the issues, argue with specifics, call me wrong....but do so with some intellectual integrity and specifics. Otherwise your complaints are just like whistling in the wind...they may sound good to you, but no one else hears it. And, if you think I am turning this into some political rant forum, you are wrong. I am just responding to, first, the comments that Cuba has not improved in education under Castro...that is not true. Period. And then the comments that labeled me "nutty." cause I had the "audacity to express my own ideas. I didn't start this. But, if you make allegations then...provide some sound ideas to back up your stuff, or don't venture in..kind of like Vietnam and, now, Iraq.
I was born in Wausau, Wisconsin...grew up in Northern Michigan, Wisconsin then Illinois. My Dad fought for the US in the Pacific Theater in World War II. Don't try that anti-Americanism crap on me. Have you heard of the Bill of Rights? # 1 is -freedom of speech. It is and always has been "patriotic" to think and speak freely...with specifics.
You know...because someone expresses ideas you don't agree with, it isn't enough to just label them ("nutty) or (American basher). If you don't agree, which obviously you don't, then at least deal with them...to dismiss them without engaging them, with some intellectual endeavor, is not going to do the job. Sorry, it's just not. Just like the President saying Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, and that was why we went to war, and then, later, saying, well, even if they didn't, well, the war was still justified. Nope. Not enough. Deal with the issues, argue with specifics, call me wrong....but do so with some intellectual integrity and specifics. Otherwise your complaints are just like whistling in the wind...they may sound good to you, but no one else hears it. And, if you think I am turning this into some political rant forum, you are wrong. I am just responding to, first, the comments that Cuba has not improved in education under Castro...that is not true. Period. And then the comments that labeled me "nutty." cause I had the "audacity to express my own ideas. I didn't start this. But, if you make allegations then...provide some sound ideas to back up your stuff, or don't venture in..kind of like Vietnam and, now, Iraq.
I was not as lucky as you. I was born in Cuba. I came to the USA at the age of 8 in 1961. What I remember is little other than pictures my mother saved.
The fact that you scold the USA in your post is what gives me a little trouble. No we are not without sin. But you will NEVER hear me say anything bad towards the USA. I am 52 years old and will retire next year. Yes I said retire with more $$$$$ than I will be able to spend. America gave me that. Had I stayed in Cuba..... well you know. I could have been shark food.
You also defend the Cuban education system. What do you know about it. I mean FIRST hand experience not what someone told you. The fact is the education system in Cuba is no better than in other third world countries. Yes they read, but it is WHAT they read that is troublesome. They are not preparing the students for the rest of the world. A university graduate from Cuba could not function in a professional capacity anywhere outside of Cuba. I have read this "history" book being currently used in Cuban schools. It is hilarious.
Im sure your father would be proud of your hatred for the country he defended.
The fact that you scold the USA in your post is what gives me a little trouble. No we are not without sin. But you will NEVER hear me say anything bad towards the USA. I am 52 years old and will retire next year. Yes I said retire with more $$$$$ than I will be able to spend. America gave me that. Had I stayed in Cuba..... well you know. I could have been shark food.
You also defend the Cuban education system. What do you know about it. I mean FIRST hand experience not what someone told you. The fact is the education system in Cuba is no better than in other third world countries. Yes they read, but it is WHAT they read that is troublesome. They are not preparing the students for the rest of the world. A university graduate from Cuba could not function in a professional capacity anywhere outside of Cuba. I have read this "history" book being currently used in Cuban schools. It is hilarious.
Im sure your father would be proud of your hatred for the country he defended.
Ready, Redi? [With apologies to the other DR1 Folks]
Well, I've thought it over a tad and decided that no apology is in order. If you were some runny-nosed teenager who gets all excited over a picture of that handsome devil Che; or, feel wam and tingly while reading that masterpiece of clear and rational political philosophy, Das Kapital, your rambling might be forgivable. You do know that you ramble don't you? Worst of all, you do it in poor grammar and construct....your logic arguments aren't worth speaking to.
But, alas, when I did a quick mental calculation of how old you probably are [feel free to correct all or part of this paragraph [but you've got to be honest about it.....no fudging the truth, even a little bit...trust that you've got enough moral fiber to do that] and based on your dad's war service I've got you pegged at around 50 - 55; and, letting my imagination wander, also see you as an arm chair political "science" poseur in need of a hair trim, who gets the local bridge club all atwitter with his "audicity". [Waiting for Guffman just thematically pops into mind.] You really haven't travelled much have you? Certainly not to Cuba. And, no, I don't think you're anti-American. Now, if you said intellectual light weight....I might have to reflect on it.
OK, on to the "specifics" of your last all-over-the-map post [and hear me carefully Redi -- this is my last comment to you in this thread...which started out as a question about illegal travel to Cuba and needs to go back to that issue.]
[1] M&N beat me to this point.....your dad fought in WWII. Do you think that your dad's time in harm's way establishes somehow your bona fides as a good citizen? In your place I'd have been ashamed to have even brought it up. And, for one I'd be a lot more impressed to hear how you served in Vietnam -- with boundless respect if you had been there as a corpsman/ consciencious objector. Or, even in the Peace Corps out in the Gabonese bush [no AZT not that kind of bush].
[2] First Amendment? Yes, I've heard vaguely of that. Think it may be part of that document I've spilled a few pints of blood over, defending your right to abuse the priviledge of free speech.......no, not what you may be thinking. It's just that you express yourself so poorly. [The role of Christian in Cyrano DB pops into mind at this point.]
[3] & [4] Dismiss without discourse? My god. This is the hardest point of all. I think most people who've read my poor scribblings in this site may agree that I don't grind personal axes, make personal attacks, or take constructive criticism/comment badly. But quite frankly, you're not worth the mental sweat for even a light exchange of opinion. Maybe we'll get together for a beer someday and I'll change my mind. Could happen. Until then though, I'll just stick with the word nutty.
You bring back fond memories of a Russian Military Attache who once was my counterpart....he could better argue while dead drunk, the merits of Communism [though his heart wasn't really in it by 1985, when it was clear the whole stinking system was falling apart at the seams] than I feel you can on your best day.
[5] Political rant? Hmmmm.....maybe I was misled into thinking that. And there is some truth in the point that Castro "improved" the educational system...just about like Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot [heros all...who just "mangled" their popular revolutions]. If we take your hasty generalization at face value, however, the logic case is fataly flawed.
I'll pause for another nostalgic moment. Wish you could've been around a few months ago to share a cigarette with a Vietnamese cab driver in Paris....poor bastard got hoovered up in 1972 and spent nine f*****g years in a re-education camp. On second thought, maybe it was best you weren't there....he was a wiry little fellow and probably wouldn't have taken kindly to your points of view. He did mention that some Cubans dropped in one time, but he didn't have a chance to speak with them about his education program.
Sorry, back to it. Going from, say, 10% literacy under Batista [without doubt a no good bastard] to 20% under Castro, it can be claimed that 100% improvement was made. We won't even talk about the content or quality of that doubling. I once stumbled into a Russian-trained Cuban "chocolate engineer." But, it's going to take Brother Castro's passing onto his greater reward and some serious scholarship to see just what improvements and/or damage he did to the educational system [not to mention the rest of the infrastructure].
Rediwat, have you ever heard of Edward Tufte....the genius at presenting information clearly? He gives seminars around the country and if he happens to parachute into Wisconsin or where ever, you might sign up to hear him speak. It would do all of us a world of good.
And, finally, the admonition not to "venture into Vietnam and Iraq" intellectually. OK. You persuaded me. Been to both of them physically anyhow.
Best, P
NB - my own education is in great part school of hard knocks, along with early eduction in Turkey and post-war Japan.....though later I was indoctrinated in several "enlightened" countries. Just a burden I have to bear. Recollect, for instance, some mention of modern history...even past the Great White Fleet. Your library have any of that stuff in it?
rediwat said:[1] I was born in Wausau, Wisconsin...grew up in Northern Michigan, Wisconsin then Illinois. My Dad fought for the US in the Pacific Theater in World War II.
[2] Don't try that anti-Americanism crap on me. Have you heard of the Bill of Rights? # 1 is -freedom of speech.
[3] You know...because someone expresses ideas you don't agree with, it isn't enough to just label them ("nutty) or (American basher). If you don't agree, which obviously you don't, then at least deal with them...to dismiss them without engaging them, with some intellectual endeavor, is not going to do the job.
Sorry, it's just not. Just like the President saying Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, and that was why we went to war, and then, later, saying, well, even if they didn't, well, the war was still justified. Nope. Not enough.
[4] Deal with the issues, argue with specifics, call me wrong....but do so with some intellectual integrity and specifics. Otherwise your complaints are just like whistling in the wind...they may sound good to you, but no one else hears it.
[5] And, if you think I am turning this into some political rant forum, you are wrong. I am just responding to, first, the comments that Cuba has not improved in education under Castro...that is not true. Period. And then the comments that labeled me "nutty." cause I had the "audacity to express my own ideas. I didn't start this. But, if you make allegations then...provide some sound ideas to back up your stuff, or don't venture in..kind of like Vietnam and, now, Iraq.
Well, I've thought it over a tad and decided that no apology is in order. If you were some runny-nosed teenager who gets all excited over a picture of that handsome devil Che; or, feel wam and tingly while reading that masterpiece of clear and rational political philosophy, Das Kapital, your rambling might be forgivable. You do know that you ramble don't you? Worst of all, you do it in poor grammar and construct....your logic arguments aren't worth speaking to.
But, alas, when I did a quick mental calculation of how old you probably are [feel free to correct all or part of this paragraph [but you've got to be honest about it.....no fudging the truth, even a little bit...trust that you've got enough moral fiber to do that] and based on your dad's war service I've got you pegged at around 50 - 55; and, letting my imagination wander, also see you as an arm chair political "science" poseur in need of a hair trim, who gets the local bridge club all atwitter with his "audicity". [Waiting for Guffman just thematically pops into mind.] You really haven't travelled much have you? Certainly not to Cuba. And, no, I don't think you're anti-American. Now, if you said intellectual light weight....I might have to reflect on it.
OK, on to the "specifics" of your last all-over-the-map post [and hear me carefully Redi -- this is my last comment to you in this thread...which started out as a question about illegal travel to Cuba and needs to go back to that issue.]
[1] M&N beat me to this point.....your dad fought in WWII. Do you think that your dad's time in harm's way establishes somehow your bona fides as a good citizen? In your place I'd have been ashamed to have even brought it up. And, for one I'd be a lot more impressed to hear how you served in Vietnam -- with boundless respect if you had been there as a corpsman/ consciencious objector. Or, even in the Peace Corps out in the Gabonese bush [no AZT not that kind of bush].
[2] First Amendment? Yes, I've heard vaguely of that. Think it may be part of that document I've spilled a few pints of blood over, defending your right to abuse the priviledge of free speech.......no, not what you may be thinking. It's just that you express yourself so poorly. [The role of Christian in Cyrano DB pops into mind at this point.]
[3] & [4] Dismiss without discourse? My god. This is the hardest point of all. I think most people who've read my poor scribblings in this site may agree that I don't grind personal axes, make personal attacks, or take constructive criticism/comment badly. But quite frankly, you're not worth the mental sweat for even a light exchange of opinion. Maybe we'll get together for a beer someday and I'll change my mind. Could happen. Until then though, I'll just stick with the word nutty.
You bring back fond memories of a Russian Military Attache who once was my counterpart....he could better argue while dead drunk, the merits of Communism [though his heart wasn't really in it by 1985, when it was clear the whole stinking system was falling apart at the seams] than I feel you can on your best day.
[5] Political rant? Hmmmm.....maybe I was misled into thinking that. And there is some truth in the point that Castro "improved" the educational system...just about like Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot [heros all...who just "mangled" their popular revolutions]. If we take your hasty generalization at face value, however, the logic case is fataly flawed.
I'll pause for another nostalgic moment. Wish you could've been around a few months ago to share a cigarette with a Vietnamese cab driver in Paris....poor bastard got hoovered up in 1972 and spent nine f*****g years in a re-education camp. On second thought, maybe it was best you weren't there....he was a wiry little fellow and probably wouldn't have taken kindly to your points of view. He did mention that some Cubans dropped in one time, but he didn't have a chance to speak with them about his education program.
Sorry, back to it. Going from, say, 10% literacy under Batista [without doubt a no good bastard] to 20% under Castro, it can be claimed that 100% improvement was made. We won't even talk about the content or quality of that doubling. I once stumbled into a Russian-trained Cuban "chocolate engineer." But, it's going to take Brother Castro's passing onto his greater reward and some serious scholarship to see just what improvements and/or damage he did to the educational system [not to mention the rest of the infrastructure].
Rediwat, have you ever heard of Edward Tufte....the genius at presenting information clearly? He gives seminars around the country and if he happens to parachute into Wisconsin or where ever, you might sign up to hear him speak. It would do all of us a world of good.
And, finally, the admonition not to "venture into Vietnam and Iraq" intellectually. OK. You persuaded me. Been to both of them physically anyhow.
Best, P
NB - my own education is in great part school of hard knocks, along with early eduction in Turkey and post-war Japan.....though later I was indoctrinated in several "enlightened" countries. Just a burden I have to bear. Recollect, for instance, some mention of modern history...even past the Great White Fleet. Your library have any of that stuff in it?
The education system in Cuba is Terrible!
My Wife, A Dominican, Teaches in a school where many of the Students are recent arrivals from Cuba. They have the lowest reading and math scores of students from any country.
You see the media just takes what Fidel says at face value. Nobody has even tried to question it.
Radiwat
I would like to see if you can possible come up with any un-biased proof of the excellence of the Cuban educational system.
BTW We didn't force mexico to do anything. We won them fare and square!
My Wife, A Dominican, Teaches in a school where many of the Students are recent arrivals from Cuba. They have the lowest reading and math scores of students from any country.
You see the media just takes what Fidel says at face value. Nobody has even tried to question it.
Radiwat
I would like to see if you can possible come up with any un-biased proof of the excellence of the Cuban educational system.
BTW We didn't force mexico to do anything. We won them fare and square!
Re: Cuba - Travel and education
WELL SAID
rediwat said:The fact that people there have less choice in the matter, also a matter of record, in no way removes the reality that in the US there are many many freedom restrictions...though much more subtle...such as travel to Cuba, or the right to show displeasure with the US actions worldwide without being labeled a traitor...or being able to steal a presidential election because one party controls the Supreme Court.
WELL SAID
Matt & Nan said:I The fact that you scold the USA in your post is what gives me a little trouble. No we are not without sin. But you will NEVER hear me say anything bad towards the USA. I am 52 years old and will retire next year. Yes I said retire with more $$$$$ than I will be able to spend. America gave me that. Had I stayed in Cuba..... well you know. I could have been shark food.
Even though this statement should be saved for another thread, I cannot help myself & reply to this.
There are winners & losers in the capitalist system, if your a winner you love it & ask what the hell is everyone else complaining about.
If your a loser or a person like me who has won & lost in it, you can see its pitfalls. TRUST ME Matt & Nan, there are plenty of losers who would complain about the U.S., with good reason. Especially in 2003, some people for the first time in Va. & S.C., just got electricty & running water for the first time, they might have a few complaints about the U.S.
Another discussion, another thread, SORRY EVERYONE
Tony C said:Radiwat
I would like to see if you can possible come up with any un-biased proof of the excellence of the Cuban educational system.
In my country there are many many Cuban medical doctors who go there through an exchange program. They do quite fine. Is this unbiaised proof of excellence? Of course not, but I can hear some of you say - An exhance program? Cuba has an exchange program? Yes, they have. They do take part and have relations with a large portion of the rest of the world - you know, the real estate and pieces of property outside the U.S. (I'm not digging at you Scott! - this is just the way the sentence came out)
Castro is bad and the people are poor - of course the people are poor. So are the Haitians, even American intervention did not create a clone culture with a 2 car garage for each Haitian. Castro is probably very bad. Is this a reason to shout at someone who wants to visit and see the place? No-one should come to the DR then, as our own dear Hippo is doing stuff that is not healthy -- in fact, people get quite dead if he does not like them.
Visiting Cuba illegally? - do you folks know that there is a sailing caravan from the Florida Keys to Cuba every year? A few brave adventurous American sailors take their boats, (I think the last trip had around 50 sailing boats) in full view of everyone - and the American authorities let them back in every year, with a little sheepish look on their faces. Of course they don't spend money there - the boats are fully supplied with food etc., and gifts for Cuban schools.
I have not visited Cuba, but will do so without moral anguish should I have the opportunity. At least, I don't have the kneejerk that we see in this thread, when Cuba is mentioned. I always have to laugh at Americans who are soooooo pround of 'free speech', but jump up and down like jackrabbits shouting 'you're abusing the priviledge of 'free speech'... if someone else says something that they don't like. The whole freedom thing - everyone is free, excepting if they want to visit Cuba - then they're not free. This stuff just makes me very tired of people and governments generally.
Like AZB, I say go and visit cuba before Castro kicks up his toes and things change. I would love to get this experience myself. Some countries simply don't want to 'develop'! Leave them to their beliefs.
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