A model for the DR ?

andy a

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Feb 23, 2002
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Yesterday a report was issued ranking various countries in the world according to competitiveness and the winner was - suspense, suspense - Finland.

The US was second.

How can it be that a country with half the population of the DR, whose old people were born into Czarist Russia (very poor), and which is either arctic or sub-arctic with so much of its food, fuel and other supplies having to be imported - be the most competitive in the world? Add to that the cradle to grave welfare that bankrupts so many other countries. Also add the fact that they are the only country to ever repay debts to the US, even as they were paying protection money to the Soviet Union to keep it out. How can it have such a strong position in fields like cellular phones (Nokia), pharmaceuticals, heavy equipment (Valmet), shipbuilding, etc.?

It has even been called (by many, an opinion of course) the most like the US of any country in Europe, even more so than our mother country England. It's the rowdiest country in Scandinavia, in a controlled sort of way (cowboy-like, perhaps). The Swedes look down on Finns, calling them "people of the forest" or frontiersmen, uncultured. Some Finns even drive American pickup trucks, almost unseen in Continental Europe. Perhaps the US comparison assumes a 1950's image of the US, when it was a kinder, gentler place.

How is Finland able to do this? Willpower, scrupulous honesty, lack of corruption in government, pride, education, willingness to fight and die (many did) for a better life, a strong work ethic even though they still like to party.

Helsinki has perhaps the best transportation system in the world. Both streetcars and buses have overlapping routes. There is also a subway for some areas. They run far into the night, until one o'clcok or later, to enable Finns to get home safely (without drinking and driving) from the frolicking that they like so much.

Finns are probably the world's greatest linguists. Those who don't speak at least 4 foreign languages probably don't even think about themselves as having foreign language skills. That's because the first 3 are almost automatic. Both Swedish and Finnish are required in school, and probably half or more speak English, too, as the "world" language. Those who really aspire to get ahead therefore "start" with German, Russian, or Spanish. They pronounce every letter of a word. Even if it sounds awkward (which it often does), they can't help but be understood. Contrast that with the guttural, choppy DR dialect, in which it almost seems to be a macho game to keep from being understood.

How could it be a model for the DR?

Finland is a a very open society. So is the DR. The people are very hospitable, as are Dominicans. The Finns love their dancing bars (discotheques), heavy drinking (but disciplined) and every neighborhood has one, just like the DR. If one strikes up a friendship with a Finn, maybe over only a couple of beers, he may very well be invited into the Finn's home. If the invitation is refused, the Finn will be truly hurt.

Will today's children in the DR see the same miracle in their lifetimes?
 

Kiteman

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Aug 25, 2002
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Huh?

What are you smoking way out there in Samana Andy? If you've got such a boner for Finland, why don't you just move there?
 

andy a

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Feb 23, 2002
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Don't confuse me with the other Andy please.

There are 2 things wrong with Finland, each of them fatal for me now:

1. It is expensive.

2. The girls don't like older men.

Otherwise I'd still be there.

Most importantly, it achieved it's miracle through self-help.

If Hippo can find an honest man, he should invest in a trip there for him to learn how they did it.
 

Kiteman

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Sorry for the mix-up of Andys, Andy.

I just wasn't paying much attention to the A or B part! While services and infrastructure can be excellent in some parts of the world, you need to be prepared to pay for it in a large way with taxes. I spent some time in various parts of N. Europe and must say they would have to pay me to live there! But hey, to each his own !!
 

samiam

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Mar 5, 2003
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I've worked with Finns here. Nice people. While working, they are very precise, dry and to the point. The bastards can drink from 7pm to 5 am, get up at 7 and start working again as if nothing happened. They are very respectful and independent. Two minutes after arriving in the country they walk around as if they have been here for a month.
I like their accents, and the names are funny as shit.
 
taxes taxes taxes

taxes is a necessary evil I guess you can say. Look at the tax rates in most wealthy countries and taxes in poorer countries. There is your answer. It would be nice to collect taxes from the masses in DR, but your also trying to take blood from a turnip. Taxes is what builds infrastructure. Lets assume you can collect 30+ percent from each working citizen, the question is then will the government remove themselves from corruption.

Another issue is DR is an Island, not much resources compared to mainland countries. True DR could be a service industry, but an infrastructure needs to be built. DR can be nothing more than most islands, a tourist country.

In short your comparing apples to oranges.


Maybe when sugar had value greater than gold, it would be a different story, but that was centuries ago.

I also have a theory, and that may be environment. Historically cold regions required more innovative thinking strictly for survival when those cold winters hit, versus in a steady relaxing warm region of the world. Maybe Egypt being an exception. DR is no different. People there are not thinking about taking over the world, or worried about defending borders, its just too hot.;)
 

Criss Colon

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Jan 2, 2002
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Thank you for giving me the opportunity to drag out my "Dead Horse"!!

I have stated my hypothesis about this very question here on DR1 many times! No one has ever been able to "Effectively" dis-prove it!!

Cold climates breed hard working people!!
It gets VERY COLD in Finland!! People had to plan ahead to survive the winters!They had to stay in one place,plant crops,harvest crops,and store for the winter! They had to work hard all year long,or DIE!

Now in countries like the DR,you have food on trees all year around! You will never freeze to death,and "shelter" is the nearest palm tree!People just moved to the next valley when their food supply ran low!

Soooooo, Cold Climate=People developed a "Work Ethic"!!!

..Warm Climate=..a Why Work???"ethic

By the way Sancocho,your "Tax Theory" doesn't hold water here! The DR has a Huge Tax income!!!Ever hear of "Itbis"?? Import & Export duties??? Where do you live?? The "Taxes" never get to help the people,due to corruption/mis-management/low quality construction,etc,etc!!

First World countries have high tax rates,and high government services as well!

Cris Colon
 
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Your putting words in my mouth Colon.

I never ever said anything about Cold weather bred "strong work ethic". Please quote me properly if you want any type of constructive dialog, because you took me way out of context.
When I was talking about environment, I was talking in an earlier period before DR was settled.

You may want to blame the settlers who settled on DR. It appeared they took from the islands to build Europe, so if you have anybody to blame, it would be the French and the Spaniards.

I will continue to stand by my premise on taxes. Tax duties alone could not sustain the toilet you piss in.

Due to high tax rates it's expected to have high government services unless corruption plays a role

True corruption plays an important part. Checks and balances of the government may be in question. But I mentioned corruption.

DR simply does not have the tax base, so we will just have to agree to disagree.
 

andy a

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Feb 23, 2002
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Kiteman:

The way you refer to N. Europe as being boring, I assume that you never made it to Scandinavia.

Big mistake. The natural entry point is Copenhagen, which I believe would win a poll as the world's most livable city for those who have been there. Although not quite as clean or crime free as Helsinki, it is more lively, bigger, and has more to do. The Danes are less reserved than other Scandinavians, and Danish girls are exceptionally slim and beautiful. Norway is probably the most reserved and boring place in Scandinavia, and the only such country I haven't visited.

As far as the subject of taxes, there is so much disinformation that it's almost impossible to make a reasonable comparison. Usually, the one making the comparison (a US politician, perhaps) is trying to make the case that Americans deserve to pay more taxes. He ignores the fact that we pay taxes on taxes, and at 3 different levels. He also ignores social security (which he doesn't pay of course), but which is used more and more to try to balance the budget (those who thought it was their retirement be damned). He also ignores the fact that medical care is one of the biggest items in Americans' budget, while being free in Scandinavia.

The most serious study I have seen on the subject (about 5 years ago) concluded that Iceland's tax rate is virtually identical to the US's - at about 30%. Finland's was a little higher at about 35%. Don't forget the medical care and other benefits. (Sweden's tax rate was higher still, and yes, it IS overly socialistic to the point of being somewhat wasteful and inefficent).


sancochojoe:

When Finland broke away from Russia it was almost as poor as the DR today. And it almost WAS an island (it would have been better). It is connected to Sweden and Norway only in the frozen North. Its eastern border had to be fortified to keep Russia out. Stalin, in fact, tried to reclaim it and was fought to a standstill (incredibly). After WW2, when Russia became a superpower and could no longer be resisted, Finland actually PAID to keep it out.

Don't forget that Japan is an island. The DR couldn't emulate the Asian economies because of the radical differences in the societies, but Finnish society is much like the DR's.


sancochojoe and CC:

I agree that inescapable heat produces problems. I wonder how I ever survived the cotton fields of my youth. Now, I can't even survive a publico stuck in traffic - I get out and walk (still bad enough).

I think it's even possible that the brain itself is affected in the form of permanent damage (I'm the proof). If I can at least sleep in cool comfort I can face a brave new day, but in the DR that's not possible. I don't know what heat has to do with corruption, though, it must be the heritage.
 
I just dont see a comparison between Finland and DR.

Europe and a Carribean Island
Climate
Scandanavian Culture and Latin Culture
Tax Rates
Natural Resources
Finland and it's relationship with other European Culture
Was Finland ever a Slave colony......I don't think so.
That alone plays a mental game on future generations.

the similarities are not there.

Its a world of a difference.

Why was Finland picked in this comparison in the first place