Inversores

Timex

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May 9, 2002
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Really???????

This is not meant as a brag.

But I run a Trace 2.4/24V on 4 batteries.
I have gone 4 days without juice many times.

I have the 20watt - energy saving, fluorescents everywhere.
I run my computer, T.V., VCR, DVD, cable box, on it.
A computer, and 2 fans at night. I thought about the A.C., but it gets very cool here every night, and we decided against it.

Also my pressure on demand, water pump. Take a shower, flush a toilet, and wash the dishes, 1 + 1/2 Hp, pump comes on till the pressure switch shuts it off.
My electric coffee pot, which I unplug as soon as the coffee is made, and use the stove to keep it warm, every morning.

Whether on the juice, or the inverser, we do not Conserve at all!!!!

I gave up chasing the kids to turn the lights out, or stay off the computer.

I do fill my batteries the 1st Saturday of every month and do an equalizing charge, right after.

Only 2 items in the house are not on the inverser, refrigerator & hot water heater.

I have a 4kw generator for back-up, which I have not used in 1 +1/2 years, although I do start it, and run it for 1 hour a month.

So why is there such a big difference in the hours of up-time, between what I?m reading and us?


Tim H.:surprised
 

Adrian Bye

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Jul 7, 2002
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> I do fill my batteries the 1st Saturday of every month
> and do an equalizing charge, right after.

How do you do this on a trace inverter?
 

MrMike

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Mar 2, 2003
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Yeah I noticed that, I get this wierd feeling like it's the end of the world. Between the lack of power and the earthquakes I'm starting to think I'm in some kind of a haulocaust movie.

Business is good though. Had to hire two temporary installers to keep up with inverter salers, I'll be running out of batteries soon and have to start buying them locally. I have some inbound but there's no way they'll get here before I'm sold out.
 

x_man

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Jan 1, 2002
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azb...

I share your anguish towards the people that cause those blackouts in your area.
As small consolation, I like to point out the fact that in paradise there was no luz either.
But those earthquakes really are a bummer.
I know all about it since I am a walking Richter Scale myself.

see ya next month x.
 

Adrian Bye

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Jul 7, 2002
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Since Tim has not been forthcoming about what this means:

> I do fill my batteries the 1st Saturday of every month
> and do an equalizing charge, right after.

I called Trace today and asked them. I know the technician here in Santiago, and he's really good.

He told me its for old batteries, that are 3-4 years old. He said that I would not need to fill them, but that the inverter has the ability to do an equalizing charge. Apparently its a mode that you set the inverter on for a while. He said its complicated to explain via phone, but that you can have one of their technicians come to your house to show you how it works.

He also stressed to me that doing an equalization charge was not important unless your batteries are old.

He also told me that to fill 4 batteries completely from empty takes 6-7 hours.

I hope this is useful information!
 

MrMike

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Well I've got a Trace DR 3624 sitting right here in front of me, and there's a dial switch on the side like you stick a screwdriver into to turn, this changes the charging modes. Positions 0 and 1 are equalizing charge modes, since I guess you don't have a manual I will type what it says here:

0 and 1-Equalize 1 and 2
These positions are used to equalize lead acid batteries. When selected, the batteries are held at the Bulk voltage for a minimum of 6 hours. Position "0" equalizes at a rate equal to the battery bank capacity (in amp hours) devided by 40. Position "1" charges at a rate set by the BATTERY CHARGER RATE control.

Let me know if you want me to send you some scanned pages, or drop by for photocopies.
 

Timex

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May 9, 2002
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Sorry, been busy.

Trace user manual on-line PDF format, 9 mb.
TRACE USER GUIDE DR SER.

TRACE WEB PAGE FOR DR SER.



From the Trace web page.
The DR Inverter/Charger provides dependable modified sine wave power for businesses, homes and workshops. Available in 1500, 2400 or 3600 watt models, it can power most common electrical appliances such as lights, televisions, cash registers, refrigerators, washing machines, computers, and power tools. The DR?s high surge capacity gives it the ability to start difficult motor loads. Once set up, all functions of the inverter/charger are fully automatic.

Designed for off-grid and backup power applications such as cabins, workshops and well pumps, DR systems offer modified sine wave output at a mid-range price. 1500 to 3600 watt systems available.


The equilizing charge is for cleaning the build up, that forms on the bottom of the plates in the battery. It also stirs up the heavy bottom acid, with the lighter top acid, in the batteries.

It makes them more efficent, and your batteries, will last longer.


Thanks
Tim H.:cool:
 
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sable227

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I feel for everyone in Santiago. Makes our blackouts here in Santo Domingo seem like child's play. We bought a small planta this summer so the food would not go bad and could run some a/c and watch tv.

Not the way to win the hearts and minds of the voters. This kind of reminds me of when the streets in Chicago did not get plowed after a blizzard and they voted the mayor out.
 

Peter & Alex

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May 3, 2003
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Trace Inverters

Reference to the threads on Equalizing the batteries. (ie. a fancy term for over-charging).
The Trace Manual I have, clearly states that this is necessary on all batteries! Especially if the batteries never receive a full charge!! Which is often the case here in the DR.
This should only be done with standard electrolyte batteries!!
This should be done every month or two as your batteries may still have sulfate on the plates even after a complete charge cycle. In our case, as the batteries do not always receive a full charge, all plates will have sulfate on them. If the sulfate remains on the plates for an extended period of time, it will harden and seal off a percentage of the plate area, reducing the capacity of the batteries. By equalizing the batteries, all the sulfate is removed from the plates. Additionally, the gassing that results stirs up the electrolyte which tends to stratify. Stratification concentrates the sulfuric acid in the bottom of the cell while the top becomes watery. This corrodes the plates.
Hence the need to equalize all electrolyte type batteries.
If you maintain them properly they will last longer and perform better - mine have provided sufficient for all my needs whilst others around me have had their batteries go down over the past few days.
Peter
 

Adrian Bye

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Jul 7, 2002
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> This should only be done with standard electrolyte batteries!!

Does this include deep cycle batteries?
(btw, thanks for the previous link to the trace manual, mine did not come with one, so I printed it out).
 

Timex

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May 9, 2002
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Hola adrianb!

Glade you could use the TRACE link.

Peter & Alex, gave a much better explination, of the EQ charge, than I did.

Yes even deep cycle acid batteries, need an EQ charging.
Some types of batteries use, a GEL, or an array of Capaciters instead of acid. You can not EQ Charge them, with the Trace DR ser, inverser.

On TRACE DR inverser, performing the EQ charge...
also resets the charging rate inside the inverter, according to the condition of your batteries.


And check your battery level once a month, a certian amount of electrolyte, will evaporate out, ( Out- Gassing). You can buy electrolyte at you local motor concho, parts guy. Nerver use tap water, to many hard minerals, you can use Distilled water in a pinch.

When I was in the Navy, we used to perform monthly EQ charges on the ships batteries every month. Talk about some big batteries!!!

A Sub could run 72 hours, at 20+ knots submerged, before needing a recharge.

Tim H.
 
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XanaduRanch

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Sep 15, 2002
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OK. I admit it.

I am not all that bright when it comes to anything to do with cars and batteries. So, help me out here Tim & Mike!

My DR25XX inverter is set to position 7: Deep Cycle / Lead Acid batteries. I have a bank of 12 of the maroon colored jobbies that you typically buy at La Sirena or Supermercado Nacional. I know my batteries aren't getting enough of a charge these days. They are checked and filled for water every two weeks. But the capacity is way down over the last few weeks.

To do the equalization thing, what should I do? Change the dial switch to 0? Or 1? Which would be better? I just turn the dial and turn it back right? For how long before I turn it back to 7? 6 hours, 12 hours? Also, the manual says not to use these positions with sealed batteries. I assume these batteies then are not sealed and this is safe?

Tom (aka XR)
 
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Timex

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May 9, 2002
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OK, here goes.

If you have the caps on top of the battery that you can open and see down in the cell's, old style car battery then you do not have a Sealed new style like a sears maintenance free, or GM maintenance free.

Even some so called MAINTENANCE FREE batteries can be opened and topped off, some can not.

DEEP CYCLE Like the name says, can be drawn down to a low reserve and charged to full capacity, with-out destroying the battery. Types are Deep Cycle, RV, MARINE, etc, etc.

Car batteries are meant to be always charged full, they are not meant for repeated constant, high discharge- full charge, situations. They will work in a pinch, but will have a much shorter life span, about 30% of a deep cycle battery, in the conditions going on here.

Trace inverser DR Series
EQ charge,
Most important is at least 6 hours of un-interupted charge time.
As bad as you guys, have it on the North Shore right now, I would run the EQ charge, while on your generator. Set it for Mode 0 or 1, and go back 7 hours later, and switch back to mode 7.

Also check the dial that sets the percentage of battery reserve that the inverser kicks out at, it is adjustable.

1, Your battery charge rate will have been reset internally, inside the inverser

2, The plates in the battery will have been kicked clean of the old build-up.

3, You acid will be more even, top to bottom.

Mode 0 & 1
These positions are used to equalize lead acid batteries.
When selected the batteries are held at the Bulk voltage for a minimum of 6 hours.

Mode 0
Equalizes at a rate equal to a battery bank capacity ( in amp-hours) divided by 40.

Mode 1
Charges at the rate set by the BATTERY CHARGER RATE control.

I use mode 0.

XanaduRanch
I have a bank of 12 of the maroon colored jobbies that you typically buy at La Sirena or Supermercado Nacional.
From your description, they sound like the standard DEEP CYCLE batteries, they sell here.
And yes your batteries are SAFE

Also, ONLY Deep Cycle Batteries, should be used with an inverser.

Peter & Alex posted an excellent answere, on why to do the EQ charge.

For me, I have been doing it since I bought the batteries and inverser new, I saw the thing about the EQ charge in the manual and it struck home with me, doing the EQ charge on the ships batteries in the Navy, so I do it.

I also clean, all my battery connections, every 6 months. 1 dirty connection, can cause a ton of resitance, in either direction, Charging or Dis-Charging.

I know it sounds like allot of work, but it really isn't. I have had no trouble with my system, and it's well worth the 1/2 @ day, a month I spend on it.
I was not BS'ing in my post above, about going up to 4 days, before having to bring the gen-set on-line, I suspect that if, you use the boxed electrolyte, and perform the EQ charge, you will see a big difference in your up-time, on the inverser, especially with 12 batteries. I only have 4.

After you have tried the above, if you are still having the same problem, then.........
If you can get a full charge on your batteries, have some-one come over with a battery tester, the old fashion kind, it looks like an old toaster, with a pair of jumper cables hanging out 1 end, with a toggle switch on the front, and a meter, and a shorting element inside.
Flip the switch for 10 seconds and read the condition of the battery.


DISCLAIMER FOR, CrissColon, AZB, JazzCom, & others
This is a description of an actual tool, NOT a SEX GADGET!!!

Each battery has to be checked by itself, disconnected from the others.

1 bad cell, in 1 of your 12 batteries, can cause the same problem you are describing above.

I know it takes a while to download the manual, but it is worth a full read, once thru.

I hope that helps you out. Any questions, just ask, or PM, me your number, and I will call you.

Thanks
Tim H.:cool:
 
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Adrian Bye

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Jul 7, 2002
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Wow!

Extremely helpful posts, thanks a lot Timex!!!

I think I'll see about doing this tomorrow, off my generator.

In general my inverter has been working like a champ - the only thing I do is get the batteries filled up with water from the water cooler. I was told by several people that was ok to use.

But if I get get more battery time by doing an equalization charge, I'm all for it! I wonder why trace did not build this into the inverter to happen automatically.

Anyways, again, thanks a ton for the very helpful information!
 

Timex

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May 9, 2002
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Hola Escott!!!!!!

Most people right now are asking themselves...
A gas/electric refrigerator !!! What the heck is he talking about!!!!!!
This has been around a LONG, Long time!!!!

I have a little place up North, just outside Monticello.
In a little town called Callicoon, I actually have to drive past the old Yasger's farm, on Route 17B, then Rt 52 to get to it.

Any way, I bought an old apple orchard, which had 10 of 80 acres of land on the Delaware River, I was going to build a summer home the following year. Low and behold, the Federal Government, established the river as a park, and put a building moratorium in affect, 1 mile both sides.

I couldn't even bring electric or water onto the property, were I was going to build the house.

What to do?????????

I bought 2 trailer park model, mobil homes, the kind you see in the Trailer Parks, in Florida.

Leveled them off on blocks, 50ft from the river. Went to court against the National Park service, and the Judge told them, as long as they were not anchored permanently, and since the photos showed the wheels were still clearly on them, it was legal.

Anyway, to your question.
Both units had FULL-SIZE, 3-way refrigerators.
110V/ 12VDC/ Gas-propane. Dometic-12cu-ft.
They had a 5-wire heater cartridge, on the coil in the back.
110V worked great!! 12VDC, SUCKED!!!! In the 12v mode, those units could drain a full battery down in 24hrs.
Gas, worked better than 110v, The Fridge, was actually colder on gas, always had to turn the thermostat down.
They did not have Freon in them, but used an ammonia absorption process.

I can't tell you exactly how efficient they really are except this.
For 8 years in a row, I had the refrigerators on gas, 6 months out of every year. Each trailer had 2- 60lb tanks, that I would fill at Agway, my 1st weekend up, no matter how full or empty they where. I never ran out of gas. But I used the propane for the Stove & Oven, Hot Water Heater, Central hot air heater, and my Barbecue.

I would leave every Friday at 12pm, blow off the Island and head up for the weekend. I always had friends or family in the other unit.

On Sundays, I always shut every thing off but the 2 refrigerators, since they had food and beer in them, and I would be back in 5 days, it never mattered to me.

Over the years, I had trouble with almost every appliance in both unit's, EXCEPT the 2 refrigerator's, they never needed anything but a yearly cleaning.


Hope that helps you!!!!

XanaduRanch
I posted a reply to your question, on the bottom of Page 2, of this Thread.

Tim H.:cool:
 
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Adrian Bye

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Jul 7, 2002
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Scott,

I never hear anyone in Santiago talking about gas refrigerators. I regularly hear about people upgrading their inverter so they can run their refrigerator(s) off it.

Mine generally stays cold enough, even with the current round of power outages. I wonder also if you could buy a separate small (bar) fridge, and keep meat in that, and run it off the inverter?

On an unrelated note, we're getting power for between 1/3 - 1/2 of the day now in Santiago. The power seems be on in different parts of the city at different times. If I have it, many parts of the city does not.

I guess they don't have enough electricity for the whole city all at once.
 

Bolt

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Jun 12, 2002
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More invertor stuff

Just wanted to add this info for those who aquired an invertor and may not have the instruction book-

If you have access to a good digital voltmeter then when the batteries are in a fully charged state (least a couple of days) check the no load charging voltage is as follows;

12 volt system 13.55 volts

24 volt system 27.10 volts

36 volt system 40.50 volts

These voltages are quite critical it ensure the batteries a fully charged but not over charged. Some invertors have dip switches or a little screwdriver control to set these voltages accurately. Too high and the batteires will give off too much gas and buckle the plates and too low and they won't charge right and fur up inside.

Also, i noticed quite a few people rushing out and adding more batteries. You must make adjustments to the system if you do this!

For example a 4 battery 24 volt system using T105 6 volt batteries are 220 Amp hours. You need to make sure you invertor is charging at 1/10 on the Amp hour of the system. Therefore in this case the invertor is set to 22 Amps max charging current. Any more then this and the batteries will be damaged very quickly.

Edit; [After reading more on this topic I found that 10% is optimal charging and is better for the batteiries especially when charging in hot conditions. Not many places are hotter then here so i guess we come in to this category. 20% is the maximum as Peter shows below and I would go to this setting only if you have daily blackouts but remember it is not as kind on the batteries. You may get 3 or 4 years battery life against 5 or 6 at 10% recharge current. A rule of thumb is if you notice the batteries getting rather warm on a deep recharge then you are overcharging which is why some invertors have a temp sensor wire which is strapped to one of the batteries]

Now if i add 4 more batteries giving a total of 8, my Amp hour capacity is now 440 AH so i need to increase the charging current to 44 amps. It is not a problem to undercharge but will take a lot longer to get the charge back in to the batteries particularly in areas where you get daily power cuts.

Look, if its charging at 22 Amps it will take over 10 hours to recharge a 4 battery system. (22 * 10 = 220 amp hours)

At the same 22 Amps on 8 battery system (cos you went out and bought 4 more and never adjusted the invertor) It will take over 20 hours to charge your system and with daily powercuts you are never going to get a full charge if you run them flat every day.

Oh there is one more problem, now you have 8 batteries and assuming you now charging at 44 amps (if the invertor goes up that high of course, most do) then 44 Amps at 27 volts = 1,188 watts of juice going in to those batteries, so on the mains 110 side you better make sure the invertor wiring and fuse can handle it! (Thats the very thick Air Con size wire) Allowing for losses your invertor needs 1500 watts from the grid or planta to charge 8 batteries for 10 hours or 13.6 amps at 110 volts.
 
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Peter & Alex

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May 3, 2003
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TRACE INVERTERS-BATTERIES EQUALISATION 22.10.03

So I asked Trace Engineering the question - "How long should I equalise my bateries for"?

This is the answer I got from their technician.

TRACE INVERTERS-BATTERIES EQUALISATION 22.10.03

"The following method will work well for MOST flooded, wet cell, lead/acid batteries! Contact your battery manufacturer for details on YOUR batteries.

Equalizing time depends on a lot of variables, battery bank size, charging rate, generator size, battery condition, etc. Your most accurate method requires monitoring the charging amperage during EQ (or bulk/absorption) charging.

First determine the Amp/Hour rating of your battery bank.
Divide this number by 5, 50 and 40 - i.e. 1095AH bank divided by 5 = 219, divided by 50 = 21.9, and divided by 40 = 27.4.
What these numbers represent are C/5 = maximum charge rate, C/50 and C/40 = return amps.

Okay, so what does all this gibberish mean...
Maximum charge rate - to prevent damage to your batteries, you do not want to charge them faster than 20% of the Amp Hour capacity of the battery bank (C/5).
Return amps - When the charging amperage falls between or below this rate, the battery bank can be considered "Charged". This assumes your charger is able to charge at a rate significantly higher than the return amps (C/50 to C/40).

So - with this information in hand, here we go. Setup your charger for EQ charging (volts) at a maximum rate (amps) of C/5. Continue charging until the battery voltage reaches the EQ voltage. Now hold this voltage for a minimum of two or three hours AND until the return amps is between C/50 and C/40 amps."


So folks, it's not that simple! In reality you need to start messing about in something few of us know anything about!!! DANGER - if it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!
Personally I checked mine and find that I need 2-3 hours of equalising to achieve the return amps between C/50 and C/40, and I do this once a month if the batteries have not had decent full charges over that period. IF(?) power has been available and the batteries have been getting decent full charges then I tend to do the equalising thing between every 6-8 weeks.
So far, so good!!!!!!!!!! They certainly manage the current spate of outages and provide for all my needs.
Peter
 

Snuffy

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May 3, 2002
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Or a/c to d/c power storage....I am now like many ready to make the purchase. Seems necessary now that we in Santiago are only receiving about five hours of power per day. There are many makes and models and many prices.

I have one guy that will sell me a 1KW for 6000 pesos and then each battery for 1500 pesos....four batteries. Another guy will sell me one for 35,000 pesos and each battery for 3500 pesos. So what works fine a reasonable price.

I am interested in hearing about your experience with your inversore...the make and model...more or less price....and how has it been for you.

This would be a good subject for all newcomers.

Thanks for your help.