If you're a dominican man

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carl ericson70

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All,
bare with me as I'm no expert on genetics.So feel free to correct me if and where I'm wrong.Last night I happened to watch a pbs broadcast which high-lighted a newly launched program aimed at finding ethnic african origins of blacks in the u.s. and a few places in the carribean,via genetic simpling and comparison to modern day ethnic groups in africa.The purpose of the program is to foster some sense of history(outside of slavery)for new world blacks,who're pretty much the victims of stolen identities.Yada yada yada.

The problem with the program is that,because there was mixing between the races during slavery & after,a sizable percentage of people participating in the study are finding that their paternal line doesn't go back to african ethnic groups,but to europe.Especially with black men!


Anyways,what I'm driving at if it's true that a person's line of descent is easier to trace via their father and there has been quite a bit of open race mixing in the DR,if one is a dominican male,is his paternal line more likely to go back to spain/france than to africa?

Your take?
Carl e.
 
How many generations is the program going back?

Because there was another program similar to that discussing the issue of DNA and Genes and that everybody traces back to Africa. It was also stated that because the gene pull is so dense in africa that if all the countries in the world were destroyed except the continent of Africa, Only that continent has every gene pull/DNA whatever....could create the diversity of colors that we see today. I guess its like that Jarasic Park Movie.

But again, I wouldn not doubt that this was the case, remember the Male Spanairds and other Europeans during that period were procreating via love or Rape with Afrikan Slaves and native Indian woman. So the premise would be logical. Much of it has been romanticized via Disney programs, i.e. pokahantas but nevertheless...

It sounds as if your saying people should not forget there European heritage as well, but it appears that people may be prouder of there Afrikan heritage than the European one.

My question to you would be, and don't take it the wrong way, I just trying to stimulate conversation, but if you were born of rape, how much pride would you boast about that parent who raped the other. ASSUMING that was the case, because in more ways than one, during that period of colonism that was generally the case.
 
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Criss Colon

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What a load of CRAP!

?f you were born of rape what pride would you have,as was GENERALlY the case during the Colonial Period? No wonder you live in a Log Cabin!
You have insulted anyone of a mixed racial background,which is most of the people of Color in the US and Carribean Islands!
 

mkohn

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We are who we are. We are responsible for our own life. Any negative feelings you have for me because of my ancestors, bounce off of me and stick to you like glue.
;)
mk
 
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nicely said Criss

Carl e.

Genetical research is easier along the male line because of the X-chromosone, which only males have. On this X-chromosone, certain identified genes are found that occur only on the X-chromosone. So certain genes are passed on only through the male line.

Any genes passed on by the female are located on the Y-chromosone which also occurs in males. Therefore the current Y-chromosone represents both genes passed on by male and by female so it is impossible to tell which parent has passed them on.

For this reason it is easier to do genetic research on male bloodlines than on females.

During the 'early days of colonization' it was very common that European men came to the New World without women. It was greatly encouraged in some areas to mix with the local women,whether they be black or indian. Sometimes this was under duress and sometimes they would really like eachother. As a result the mulatto middle class came into being.



Sancochjoe

Regarding the rape thing? I resent the implication that everyone of mixed heritage is the product of white on black rape. One of the very nice things in todays society is that people can and should mix freely because they love each other and the resulting 'product' should feel proud of and embrace both heritages. I thought you knew better than this:confused:

MD
 
Re: What a load of CRAP!

Criss Colon said:
?f you were born of rape what pride would you have,as was GENERALlY the case during the Colonial Period? No wonder you live in a Log Cabin!
You have insulted anyone of a mixed racial background,which is most of the people of Color in the US and Carribean Islands!

Colon, ask me if I care. Sometimes the truth hurts. At least I'm not afraid to face the truth.

And what does a log cabin have to do with it. 8 inch thick walls, well insulated and very very efficient living. $60 a month electric bill in the dead of winter, cant get any better.
 

XanaduRanch

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Still a BIG load of CRAP!

sancochojoe said:
Sometimes the truth hurts. At least I'm not afraid to face the truth.
Face the truth? With which part of your anatomy?

With all of the factual errors, historical errors, innaccuracies, and myths embedded in both your mind and in your posts it is quite apparent that you would not recognize the truth if it walked up to you, introduced itself, and bit you on your moreno *ss.

Tom (aka XR)
 
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Re: nicely said Criss

MerengueDutchie said:

Regarding the rape thing? I resent the implication that everyone of mixed heritage is the product of white on black rape. One of the very nice things in todays society is that people can and should mix freely because they love each other and the resulting 'product' should feel proud of and embrace both heritages. I thought you knew better than this:confused:

MD

Look don't try to paint a pretty picture about colonalism during that period in time, thats very "white" of you. and this talk about "it was greatly incouraged for men from Europe to...... Sometimes this was under duress and sometimes they would really like each other....."

Needs!! Whose needs are we talking hear. Again, that would only come from someone "White". Sometimes under duress. WHAT!! how about most of the time. Encouraged....!!! What!!! are you nuts.

If it was out of love, you would not have whole nations of Native americans wiped out. If it was love for each other, you wouldn't have naked Afrikan woman, bowing to those men every whim as there Afrikan men watch there there wives get banged by these guys. Give me a break. Again, you guys have let Disney paint this pretty picture of colinization. Incredible. And you know....it does not surprise me, because I'm seing and reading the same behavior most of you guys are doing with them Dominican girls.

Come to think of it, why should I be angry, thats just "Yalls" natural born behavior. You can't help yourself It must be genetic.

This is the first time up front, that people here are actually glorifying colonialism. Impressive very impressive. You guys trully do not understand the results of what was done and its a shame.

Shame shame shame ooo Lawd what a shame.:cool:
 

Pib

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I don't really get the point of the OP. But that's OK, I am not making any effor to anyways. But if there is one more post, just another post with personal attacks the thread will be closed.
 

La Profe_1

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MerengueDutchie said:
Carl e.

Genetical research is easier along the male line because of the X-chromosone, which only males have. On this X-chromosone, certain identified genes are found that occur only on the X-chromosone. So certain genes are passed on only through the male line.

Any genes passed on by the female are located on the Y-chromosone which also occurs in males. Therefore the current Y-chromosone represents both genes passed on by male and by female so it is impossible to tell which parent has passed them on.

For this reason it is easier to do genetic research on male bloodlines than on females.
I am sorry, Merengue Dutchie, but I spent a LOT of years teaching, as part of a general Biology course, sex determination and the inheritance of sex-linked characteristics.

Females have 2 X chromosomes and males have an X and a Y. I think, perhaps, you are confused. If a gene is located on the Y chromosome, it MUST have come from the father, since only males have Y chromosomes. A gene with a locus on the X chromosome can be passed by either the mother or the father.

That is exactly why sex-linked characteristics/diseases such as hemophilia and baldness are more common among males. Since males have only one X chromosome, inheriting the gene (a recessive) allows it to be expressed in males since there is not a second X chromosome (with a dominant normal gene) to suppress it.
 

ClippedWing

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carl ericson70 said:

The problem with the program is that,because there was mixing between the races during slavery & after,a sizable percentage of people participating in the study are finding that their paternal line doesn't go back to african ethnic groups,but to europe.Especially with black men!


Your take?
Carl e.

I can see how this happens, I don't think it's a really big surprise. I'm in the process of trying to trace my family history. I'm back only 7 or 8 generations though, back to my grandmother's grandfather. He was the child of a black female slave and a white slave master. He was born a slave but freed when he was around 10. As far as tracing the black side goes, it pretty much ends there because there are no records of the mother, but the white father goes directly to England...

So if this study were done on me, it would be true. The paternal side is much easier to trace because it's white and there are official records.

In the US 1880 was the first year that blacks were included in the US census and really the first documented record of blacks, so before that it's really hard to trace. I found the record of my great-great-great grandfather and his father- it was very interesting.

I think most blacks in the US are a mixture of a whole lot of races, just like blacks in the carribean. I think you can put a room full of carribean/american blacks in a room with 100% blacks from Africa and tell us apart without hesitation.

I saw a special that said civilization started in Africa with a black woman and it took 20,000 years for her genes to morph into caucasiod.

The special was really interesting, it should how the Aborgines and Asians came about and how they crossed the bearing strait into North america and became Native Americans down on to Mexico... I had never really noticed how closely Native American Indians and Asians have similar features. The Carribean and South America was one of the last areas to be explored by humans. It also talked about how some of the first humans went west to Europe, the vikings and how the cold shaped their features and stuff.

Anyhoo I say all this to say that if we don't destroy ourselves first, one day this world will just be one big melting pot and everyone will more or less look the same.
 

carl ericson70

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Sancocho

sancochojoe said:


My question to you would be, and don't take it the wrong way, I just trying to stimulate conversation, but if you were born of rape, how much pride would you boast about that parent who raped the other. ASSUMING that was the case, because in more ways than one, during that period of colonism that was generally the case.

Good question! Well.......My parents are both swedish american,but hopefully if I were black or native american,with white ancestry,I wouldn't go around advertising it as so many dominicans make a sport of doing.

Nor would I long to bond with long-lost white relatives etc...or have any special type of affinity for the white part of me
Why?It's really kind of foolish when you think about it,because most of the race mixing that has historically taken place between whites,blacks and natives in the western hemisphere,was by force.Due to the enslavement & subjugation of the later two groups.Be it outright rape,coercion,whatever!The institution of slavery itself was a form of rape.After a man's/woman's heart,mind,body & soul are taken way,what's left?

In addition to the above,I really don't think it's logical for a visibly black person,with distant white relatives,to go around espousing"whiteness",because they aren't likely to be accepted as whites or anything close(especially in the u.s.).It's just something that people with an inferiority complex about dark skin & african/afro fearures do to feel better about themselves,I think!

Carl e.
 

carl ericson70

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Merenguedutchie,
Thanks for your input into this subject .You seem to be quite knowledgable on genetic matters.I was hoping for such a response!

Carl e.
 
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Oops I mixed X and Y

Apologies are in order I guess...

Sorry La Profe_1, you're right I mixed X and Y chromosomes up. In my earlier post X and Y should be reversed but the principle of the Mendellian theory stilll stands.

To Sancochojoe:

I live now and am not responsible for slavery in ages past. As a result I don't respond well to people whining about white master/black slavery as if I were responsible.

Has it ever occured to you yet that these slaves were sold in Africa by African slave traders to the European slavers who shipped them to the Americas. These slaves were already subjugated by other Africans before being sold. At the time this was an accepted practice among indiginous African people.

Slavery was and is of all times (Jews in Babylon, Greeks and Romans had slaves, African tribes had slaves, Inca tribes had slaves, Arabs to some extent still own slaves), it is not necessary a white thing.

What's done is done. Live with it.

Now for a little fact finding:

1) Wiping out entire Native American nations. This was done by the conquistadores in a combination of war, forced labor and new diseases. The conquistadores were not a very peacefull kind. However, they had just finished liberating their country from centuries of Muslim rule. during those centuries the original Visigoth population of Spain suffered the same indignities that you describe are typical of white colonialism. At approximately the same time the Inca empire was set up in Peru. This was done by warfare, killing, murder and pillaging. Let's face it that was the standard at the time. You cannot judge these men with the standards of today.

2) African men bowing to white men and having their wives banged. I'm sorry but these people were slaves to begin with, they were sold by African slave traders. Do you really think that their enslavers didn't rape the women. This is not a white thing, but something of all times. Slaves are subject to sexual abuse. Again it was an accepted practice across the world at that time.

I am not saying that what these men did is right and moral, but I am saying that this was the norm at the time. I don't think we should judge them with our current standards!

MD
 
Re: Oops I mixed X and Y

MerengueDutchie said:
I am not saying that what these men did is right and moral, but I am saying that this was the norm at the time. I don't think we should judge them with our current standards!

MD

It does not make it right simply because it was the norm. Where did that logic come from. So slavery was just a fad that just ended because white people just got bored. oh brother.

"they were slaves to begin with" again someone gathering a little bit of information on the History Channel and running away with it to justify a point.

MerengueDutchie you and many others like you always say, "I'm not responsible"... and nobody says you are.

How come when that part of history is talked about, people like you get defensive. That was such a major part of history and how this region of the world was built yet this defensive sense of denial.

There is always a cause and effect that carries on for generation after generation. You just think that people of color just woke up and out the blue start disliking white people. No.
You know there is a benefit for being white and that benefit did not start this year. Slavery is just the root of the cause. Don't forget "JIMCROW" That lasted well into the late 1960's. Thats my life time. If you read ESPN and CNN. This is news as of yesterday, professional black atheletes are receiving tons of hate mail telling them to leave white woman alone or else. This is today. So you can't even be rich and black without backlash from people.

Dominicans on the island always show there distaste for people of Spain and others of course, that come to visit, start businesses and live on the island. They just do it just because it feels good. NO. There is a history. What do they complain about, "Spanish people are snobs" "They think they are better than us", "They treat us like we are not at there level" "They talk down to you". Mind you most domincans of Spaniard blood flowing in their veins but yet there is a disconnect. I know there are those elitest or wannabe elitest Dominicans that studied abroad and learned to speak english, so appear to feel obligated to the Spanish or American cause and treat even their own people like crap, but they do not reflect the majority on the island, and those stuck up Dominicans I choose not to associate with.

ohh boy....I know I'm going to catch some heat on this one.;)
 
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heat :classic:

Sancochojoe,

For now I will ignore your personal baiting and hope that Pib does this as well. However, one thing I won't let you get away with:

As I said in my post (which you quoted) The fact that slavery was the norm in those days among people of all colors certainly doesn't make it ok by todays standards. But our standards are not ok to judge their actions by.

I am not an advocate of slavery!

While you apparently are selective in what part of people's posting you read, you make some interesting points, about the history of the resentment towards white people. While I don't necessarily disagree with your reasoning as such, I do draw different conclusions.

Given that there is a population existing of different colors and with a different history, I would prefer to move forwards on this issue and not look over my shoulder all the time. To me that means offering opportunities to all regardless of race, according to the individuals abilities.

Going forward I also think that people should let go of their sensitivities regarding this issue, because it will only hold you back in becoming all you can be, whether laywer, doctor or basketball player.

Now, if the only thing that you have any ability for is playing the victim I feel sorry for you and you should hang on to history.

Surely even you cannot deny that things have improved for colored people... Let's hope things get even better.


MD



PS: As far as my sources go on where the slaves came from in the first place, I went directly to the horses mouth, namely the archives of the fabled 'Dutch West Indies Company' (VWC). This company, which was a major trader in slaves to the West Indies clearly describes in her logs the buying of slaves in Africa from the local African traders and the selling in the West Indies. It was all part of the triangular trade route.
 

Forbeca

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MerengueDutchie said:
Given that there is a population existing of different colors and with a different history, I would prefer to move forwards on this issue and not look over my shoulder all the time. To me that means offering opportunities to all regardless of race, according to the individuals abilities.

Going forward I also think that people should let go of their sensitivities regarding this issue, because it will only hold you back in becoming all you can be, whether laywer, doctor or basketball player.
MD




I agree with you 100%. Why keep bringing up something that happened so long ago, I doubt anyone understands completely all the related facts, etc. How can we? we weren't there. Although slavery was a tremendous injustice to mankind, it should be left in the past where it belongs. We should learn from it, and move forward.

Sorry Joe, I know what you're trying to say, but it does no good to argue about it my friend, we're never going to come to an agreement.
 
Re: heat :classic:

MerengueDutchie said:

Going forward I also think that people should let go of their sensitivities regarding this issue, because it will only hold you back in becoming all you can be, whether laywer, doctor or basketball player.

Now, if the only thing that you have any ability for is playing the victim I feel sorry for you and you should hang on to history.

I guess your assuming people are not moving forward and its holding people back. Talking about anything historical does not hold one back. My masters degree will still hang on my wall, my honorable discharge and service awards from Desert storm will still hang on the wall, my awards from Dept of Defense and State Dept will continue hang on my wall. Nope talking about it does not hold me back at all, it actually motivates me. Why, because the perception that you have is so twisted it is laugable. I would challenge you to let go of your perception of people, because thats really the problem. So you have it twisted, a history of having nothing to having something is a motivator than it is a hinderance.

The reason why people of color want to talk about it because "its there history". The reason why whites dont want to talk about because again "its their history" Its not holding anyone back, you guys seem to use the argument over and over. I know more professional wealthy people of color than non wealthy and professional people of color. That is not the issue. The issue is that we all learn from the past, but some people seem to have selective memory and rather romaticize some parts as if thats how everybody was and its not true. Thats all i'm saying and many others say. No one is crying or whining.

Look I understand that the subject talks about the worst of people of European heritage in this region of the world and you and others feel attacked. and as someone told me if I was on the other side, I would lash back and be defensive as well and say, "just forget it, and don't remind me of it",

But to me and others its just as offensive to say Just forget about it and move on when most people do move on, but the last thing someone will do is forget the little history they have of a group of people.

Forbeca, with do respect, I'm not arguing about it, I'm talking about it. I know where most of you stand, and it will never change, and because of that, certain groups will not forget, no matter how much you would like them to do so. 100 years is not a long time ago, my great grandmother died at 97 years old in the late 90's with stories that would blow your mind as she grew up in the carribean, so sorry charlie, I could not not give you the satification to forget my grandmas past and people like her.

Its amazing, we morn the losses of WWI that was almost 100 years ago, Pearl Harbor 60 years ago, The Alamo (for gods sakes) over 100 years ago, the Holacaust 70 years ago, etc etc yet you tell other people to forget theres.

again selective memory
 
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