*** Corruption ***

Robert

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Jan 2, 1999
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This is something that almost everyone complains about, but actually do very little to stop.

Why is that? Is it in our best interests to keep it alive and flourishing?

What are you doing to stop it or show you care about it? How do you draw the line?

I must admit, I'm no angel and I have greased a few palms to get the job done. Up until now it appears to have worked in my favor, but is that really true? I know that's very short term thinking, but sometimes that's how you have to think here.

The debate...

Is it in our best interests to keep corruption alive and flourishing?
 

Criss Colon

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Jan 2, 2002
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I can't say if it is "OUR" best interest,but it is definately in "MY" best inter

Since my "Dominican" salary is now "worth" only 1/3 of what it was 6 years ago,what is my alternative?Go Without? Not Me!

I take "Measures" to lower,or eliminate my monthly "Expenses!

The day that "EVERYONE" has an electric meter,and pays for all electricity they use,so will I! Until then???????????????????????

Cable TV?If Telecable National" paid their technicians a good salary,maybe they wouldn't "Hook" people up,and sell the "Boxes"!

Until the "Government" decides that educating the poor ignorant masses of dominicans is a worthwhile goal,and not stealing all the budget to buy "jepetas",I will pay maids,cooks,nannys,gardeners,and other unskilled labor,2000 pesos a month!

The better question might be,"Are we all (Expats) guilty of "Economic Colonialism" and Exploiting" the dominican Republic,or are we "Helping"by creating jobs,and importing dollars"?

Or maybe we don't want to answer that question after all!

Cris Colon
 
Keep Corruption alive.

naw


as long as money is to be made corruption will exist even with regulations.

Robert is this corruption on the low end, high end or both

meaning low life corruption, corporate corruption or both and in between.
 

Robert

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sancochojoe - Corruption, is corruption. It doesn't matter what end of the scale, it all comes back to the same, corruption.

Cris - I think your question depends on who you talk to.
All expats have different priorities and agendas.

I would like to think what I do and the work I'm involved in here has a positive impact on the country. But on the other hand, the country offers certain financial benefits that are not available in a "less" corrupt environment.

Corruption is so endemic here, that people often don?t see it as corruption, more a normal way of life.

As I?m permanent guest in this country, maybe it?s better to go with the flow, than getting an ulcer fighting the tide?
 

Adrian Bye

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Jul 7, 2002
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Corruption won't exist if there is solid enforcement. Thats what developed countries have, which in turn helps develop a certain value set in people.

I guess its either an upward or downward spiral.

Personally I have no problem paying extra to get things done, and its smoothed the path for me many times. Its just how things get done here.

But I wouldn't even consider it anywhere else.
 

Criss Colon

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In a "Poll" in a local Newspaper here this year,

Dominicans were ask what was the cause of the current economic crisis in the DR.Corruption came in # 5 I believe.
If you can't identify the problem,how can you begine to correct it? CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
 
Well you may have to pay little extra because you have no connections to do business

or you pay little to nothing if you know someone.

It doesn't have to be corruption to do that.

sounds like you might have to make a lot of friends on the high and low end of the scale.

My friends and I call it "Getting a hookup"

snobish people call it "The good o'l boy system"

either way it's corruption
 
Apr 26, 2002
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The idea of "ending corruption" is, I think, limited to the Anglo-American mindset (excluding many posters to this forum, of course). This is the same mindset that believes they can "win the war on drugs". The word "anal retentive" comes to mind.

Most of the globe believes that corruption will always exist, and that it is best to deal with it and restrict it to the extent possible and WHERE NECESSARY.

Perhaps Formosano can opine, but I have a friend who lived in Taiwan for many years. Taiwan has what he called "efficient corruption", meaning that public officials were corrupt, but everyone knew exactly where the corruption was and the going price to get things done. In other words, bribes could be accurately budgeted for and, where bribes were paid, the desired service or authorization was actually provided. In a way, you could call it transparent. As a result, the system functions relatively well.

The DR's problem is that corruption is endemic at every level and in ways both predictable and unpredictable. And the "system" has no interest in efficiency or productivity. You pay a bribe, but you still don't get what you need. And if you have to pay $1000 in May, that amount might be $5000 in September. And if you pay the deputy, the director might come along and demand another share. This lack of predictability and efficiency just kills us.

I think Leonel had the right idea: Gradual steps taken to limit corruption not at every level but first at the day to day business level. Once this is achieved, further steps can be taken as the "culture of corruption" is reduced.
 

Texas Bill

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Feb 11, 2003
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Porfi;

Again, I find myself admiring your insight to a problem and offering a reasonable solution thereto. Our opposition in another question not withstanding.

That corription is an endemic feature of all societies throughout history is a known fact. The Chinese have their "chop", the "South of the borderer's" have their "Mordido", the Arabs have their "baksheesh". I don't know what other nationalities call it, but the "bite" is always there. It is just more prevelent in some societies than in others.

I suppose the best way to combat it is to negotiate that element of "doing business" whether personal or professional and dependent on the level one is at.

Corruption stemming from Public Officials is always viewed with distaste because it is evidence of a violation of trust in the dealings that the government has with it's constituents. That such violations should be dealt with severly is self evident, but is not done, thereby giving support for further corrupt dealings.

Since greed is endemic in the human race, perhaps the solution is to attempt to reduce that greed to a minimum at all levels over several generations.;)

After that facitious remark, I'll retire and observe.

Texas Bill
 

jsizemore

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Aug 6, 2003
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the world is currupt

When an Autobus driver makes sure the gringo has a good seat hoping to get a better tip that is corruption.
We pay extra money for special services all the time. We give that special motorconcho driver a little extra to make sure he is right where we want him to be when we need him.
We pay a little extra to get something walk through the process at the government building.
In a society where trying to make extra at whatever means is accepted it is not corruption. It is the way things are down. If it were corruption then the population would be upset about it.
Look at it this way, the level of bribe needed to get things done is directly related to the amount that is perceived you can or will pay. For me it is a fact of life that things are done different here. When I am down there fulltime all I can hope for is to keep my own integrity and continue to grit my teeth and hold my nose when doing what I need to survive.
John
 
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mikeyone

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Apr 16, 2003
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when in Rome......

I tried semi-fighting the system down here for 5 years....always...Well in Canada you couldnt do this.. that..Always I was told... this is not Canada.....Now. Fully Converted.....When in Rome.. Do as the Romans Do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.Cheers.M.
 

mountainfrog

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Dec 8, 2003
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Live and Let Live

Well, I am a guest in this country, suppose, I will have to put up with circumstances and customs. I did not come here to change the world and I am not a missionary either. I do pay bribes if there is a service linked to it . Life has become so expensive that people depend on bribes to make ends meet. Unfortunately,
the poor are normally not in a position to benefit from the system. I certainly hate to pay off the big shots (yeepetas, gold chains, pistol -stuck- in -belt type).
BTW, the DR ranks 59 (out of 102 ) when it comes to the Corruption Perception Index. Not so bad after all. Or would you like to live in Finland? (ranks first)
 
Oct 13, 2003
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norms not the norm

While foreigners should be careful not to impose their value system on others that may not want that, it is not entirely true that corruption is only a matter of morality.

When in business the point is to make money from business transactions. Where some grease is needed to oil the wheels, this cuts into the profit made on the deal. This is not necessarily bad, as greased wheels can (and often will) expedite matters, a service which has its own value.

However, when the level of grease to be paid becomes such that the profit from the transaction is completely evaporated, it makes no sense to do business anymore. Therefore, corruption has a natural limit which directly relates to the amount of profit made from a transaction.

In case of established norms of corruption i.e. $500 pesos for 'running a traffic light' everybody knows what to pay and the results can be calculated for. If I go to make a delivery this will cost me an additional $ 500 for a so-called 'traffic violation'. If I make less than $ 500 from the run, its not worth it. I call this the secure corruption system and it is workable to do business in such an environment.

However, if the only certainty is that you are going to be shaken down but have no idea for how much, then it becomes a big problem. Which runs can you still make and turn a profit? This system of insecure corruption will eventually have a big negative effect on business. Unfortunately the DR, in my opinion, is currently in this situation.

In my view it is the insecurity that should be adressed, not the payment of 'extras'.

MD
 
Oct 13, 2003
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can't I'm too insecure! LOL!

Seriously though, if you do lower the variance in pay-offs for the same event, the existing corruption would be much easier to live with..

MD
 

simpson Homer

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Nov 14, 2003
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Goverment Work Position

Well every thing start in this way :


President hire some people with out preparation enough to handle a field. Thats normal in the Dominican Republic and this is how start the corrupcion. If every goverment hire people not matter where are they come from and with the education the country will be different.

There many people with degree to work in some gov. possition but they don't why? some people working for the Gov. must be ready to work 3 month with delay payment and where do they get money to support them self while they are waiting for the payment ?

The govs. doesn't have power to punish their own people they make a drama for the press for a week and then leave every thing like nothing has happen.

Baninter case, Not body talk about it after many people lost them money this guy responsible about the fraud went to jail resort for a few month then Dec.24, the guy are out. $$$

Homer Simpson
 

bochinche

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Jun 19, 2003
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i think most 'anglos' and americans recognise the fact that corruption exists everywhere, in all countries. there are of course different levels of corruption.

in north america and western europe (not including italy of course - that other country run by a bald headed burro who is plagued by a scandal similar to baninter, i.e. parmalat), corruption is more prevalent in the higher levels of society.
just how do you think those british royals manage to get accepted in oxford or cambridge with such mediocre exam results?
why are most british chiefs of police also members of some masonic lodge.
the same goes for the u.s. - how many more chinese men need to pay political bribes to presidential campaigns, before the people realise what is going on.

in other parts of the world it can extend to the more primitive.
in some parts of west africa you can't drive very far before being stopped by a policeman (whether the light was red or green) and if you don't pay him something (a good deal more than rd$500) then you run the serious risk of getting shot.

the church - don't talk to me about the church - show me a member of opus dei and i'll show you a corrupt church official. plus don't mess with the vatican's bank, you just might be forced to commit suicide under blackfriars bridge early one morning.

no the good thing here is that the corruption is, for want of a better word, average when you compare it to other countries.
i'm not talking about the sums of money involved (baninter, national lottery, etc.), but the manner in the way corruption is carried out.

what i don't understand is why some of you people are so ready to accept when you have to pay it.
some of you talk like it's the 'norm' to pay somebody off.
accepted, like cris, i pay to get my eleccy fixed. i'm not going to pay full price if nobody else is.
i get my friends in the banks to reduce my mortgage rate a couple of notches - the banks make enough as it is.
i don't remember the last time i paid off a policeman - i don't give any of them my licence and the worst they can do is give me a ticket. if they don't want to give me the ticket immediately, i go. i am not held up or anything. most of these policemen treat you like they do, because they know they can intimidate you into giving them something.
of course, don't take the long road if it is going to waste you time and money, and there is no way out, but for f*ck's sake look for the way out first.
 

Tom F.

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Jan 1, 2002
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Corruption is why systems break down. In the DR, none of this happens without the permission of the boss. It all goes to the top. The cops on the street are told by the captian they need 2,000 peso every day. If he doesn't bring it in, someone else is put there. He might shoot for 2500. Hey, thats 500 for him. The Coronel has 10 capitains who are supposed to bring in 1,000 each and the general wants his cut also. That is how all this bullshit works.

Tom F.