Church & Politics. Touchy Subject!

Tony C

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Most DR1 veterans know that discusiing religion is a no-no on DR1 but with the Church's increasingly active role in the Upcomming elections how is that subject going to be handled here?
Most people here have no qualms bashing, critqueing, or praising various politicians. Will that be aloud in regards to the Church when they make statements or take actions?
 

Robert

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Tony C said:
Most DR1 veterans know that discusiing religion is a no-no on DR1 but with the Church's increasingly active role in the Upcomming elections how is that subject going to be handled here?
Most people here have no qualms bashing, critqueing, or praising various politicians. Will that be aloud in regards to the Church when they make statements or take actions?

If it was able to be debated in the right way, then I wouldn't have a problem. Based on previous experience, a number of posters here have no idea what the word debate means, stands for or how it should be used. It ends up in personal attacks, skewed personal opinions etc etc.

I'll leave this thread open and let's see how long it lasts before it's closed by either the moderator or me. I hope you prove me wrong!
 

Tony C

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Robert said:
If it was able to be debated in the right way, then I wouldn't have a problem. Based on previous experience, a number of posters here have no idea what the word debate means, stands for or how it should be used. It ends up in personal attacks, skewed personal opinions etc etc.

Robert,
That is the problem.
When a Politician or Statesmen says something we can bring up his/hers reputation and past actions. This also includes the organization they represent.
How can we bring that up regarding the Church without upsetting some of our more "touchy" members?
A interesting subject would be how the church uses the fact that most people will not critisize it publically because of peoples reaction?

Tony C
 

Criss Colon

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As far as I'm concerned,the Church is on the Right side of the election debate!

The Cardinal has stated on several occations that "Hipolito" should not run for re-election! Cris Colon.
 
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Tony C

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Criss Colon said:
The Cardinal has stated on several occations that "Hipolito" should not run for re-election! Cris Colon.

As much as I hate Hippo, I say let him run. I was never for term limits. I don't see the point. If you don't like him..vote him out!

Now back to the subject at hand......
I can go on and on about why nobody should listen to what the Cardinal has to say....But is that possible on DR1?
 

Robert

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Tony C said:
As much as I hate Hippo, I say let him run. I was never for term limits. I don't see the point. If you don't like him..vote him out!

Now back to the subject at hand......
I can go on and on about why nobody should listen to what the Cardinal has to say....But is that possible on DR1?

Only one way to find out...
 
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i don't see a problem with the church in the DR taking sides in public debates. the catholic church has never really been neutral anyway. an institution like the catholic church is supposed to stand up for what it right(or at least what they think is right) and make an effort to sway opinions.

i would be disappointed if all kinds of corruption and misery was about and the churches said nothing at all. it is a of moral duty. i have never looked at the churches as being neutral.

the church cannot force people to vote a certain way, only offer guidance. what is wrong with that?
 

Tony C

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joel pacheco said:
the church cannot force people to vote a certain way, only offer guidance. what is wrong with that?

Ok Here we go!

The problem with the Catholic Church offering guidance is that it has no moral standing to do so.
DO you know the real reason why the church has come out against Mejia?
 

getonwithit

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Tony C said:
Ok Here we go!

The problem with the Catholic Church offering guidance is that it has no moral standing to do so.
DO you know the real reason why the church has come out against Mejia?

you are making some brash statements and asking a lot of questions tony c, without actually telling us anything.
why don't you just get down to telling us what you think the church is all about and then let's see if the thread gets closed?
 

Robert

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getonwithit said:
you are making some brash statements and asking a lot of questions tony c, without actually telling us anything.
why don't you just get down to telling us what you think the church is all about and then let's see if the thread gets closed?

Exactly!
 

lhtown

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Tony C,

Interesting post. I think that your religious views are much better documented on this forum than mine. That in spite of the fact that I am a Baptist missionary. I have read and reread your post and even though I understand where you are coming from through reading some of your other posts, I am not sure exactly what you are getting at.

I understand that you are referring to the Catholic church since you capitalized it and mention it in a Dominican context. Historically, from the very beginning, the Catholic church has been a political force. Also, it has not historically been open to criticism for its political views as politicians are. While indiviual members of the church are criticised from time to time, the church's official views have been regarded as sacred.

Other churches and groups have very different views and opiniones. For example, most evangelical churches take a hands off approach to politics. While individual members are encouraged to participate, the church as a group sticks to preaching righteousness and godliness, etc.- and in turn expects that the government will keep its hands out of the church.
 

Tony C

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Ok here we go!

The Catholic Church in the DR had a major hand in helping the PRD get the presidency.
The Fernandez Gov. Apparently did not give as much to the church as they wish and Hatuey saw this and took advantage of it. The first 1 1/2 years of Hippo's term saw much money changing hands between the Church and the Gov. Then things started to crumble. That church for the Armed forces had to be saved with church funds. Many other "Projects" were dropped by the wayside. You can cut public programs but don't you dare touch the Church's.

Now you have Opus Dei. A powerful organization in the Roman Catholic Church in most countries. A Huge power in the DR. Some of the most powerful, rich and influential people are members. How powerful? The Vatican had to give up allmost 1/2 of the Papal Nuncio's Residence in Santo Domingo for the Opus Dei's Offices. They are pretty much running the Church in the DR. I know this first hand.
Now these rich and powerful people are pissed at Hippo due to his slacking off of feeding Public money to the church. Enough to make the Cardinal and others come out against him. This is all just posturing. Sending a message to Mejia to get back on board. unless something happens you will soon see the the church back off on the attacks and Hippo will slide into 4 more years!

As in everything else....Follow the Money!
 

mkohn

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I think the Church has no place in politics, and never has. I agree 100% about the slogan 'follow the money.' It works for almost every motivation known by man.
As far as the Catholic Church in the DR and the rest of the world, it should be a shining example of perfection in thought, word and deed.
The church pays no taxes. And maybe should stick to educating the population, so the people are informed enough to think for themselves.
Teach me not what to think, but how to think.
mk
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do no harm - a brilliant concept
 

Texas Bill

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Church & Politics

mkohn said:
I think the Church has no place in politics, and never has. I agree 100% about the slogan 'follow the money.' It works for almost every motivation known by man.
As far as the Catholic Church in the DR and the rest of the world, it should be a shining example of perfection in thought, word and deed.
The church pays no taxes. And maybe should stick to educating the population, so the people are informed enough to think for themselves.
Teach me not what to think, but how to think.
mk
:cheeky:
do no harm - a brilliant concept

I think we're all forgetting something here!
History shows us that the underlying elements of government have their root in the major religious force of the populations of nations. While there may SEEM to be a seperation of "Church" and "State" there is in reality a reinforcement of the morality promulgated by the religious factions.
Look at the reasons given by the South African Government for continuing aparthied; at the original persicution of the early Christians by the Romans; at the continuous pograms in Europe of those of the Hebrew faith; at the world of Islam in their treatment (albeit against the stated precepts of that faith) of those of the Hebrew and the Christian faiths.
The Roman Catholic Church is one of the most powerful religious organizations in the world is a recognized fact. The Pope is viewed as infallible in matters of biblical interpretation by the Church's membership, and thus his representatives (the Cardinals, the Bishops and the Priesthood) fall under his umbrella of influence in such matters.
We can all agree that as such, their comments and representations of morality are not taken lightly by TRUE members of the faith; thus, the Church weilds a great deal of power over it's constituency.
As to seperation of Church and State in Spanish speaking countries, I submit that there isn't a great deal of seperation evident. The Church will always speak out (as it has done in the past) when governments are too harsh with their citizens and/or are tending to violate human rights too much.
I think that we have a rather strong contingent of opposition in the existing Church heirarchy in the DR and that they will continue to speak out against corrupt politicians in the future.
BTW, I' neither fish nor foul as regards religious matters. I belong to no religious organizations, having divorced myself from fantasy long ago.

Texas Bill
 

bob saunders

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Even though I agree that the Catholic Church always looks after it's own interests first, I submit that it would be in their interests to have a goverment in place that was doing more to Govern the country in a manner that would provide more funds for the church and its programs. If the economy is healthy the church gets more. This is a truism in the DR. As far as separation of church and state, Tonys party, the republicans are controlled by the religious right, even though there is official separation of Church and State in the USA. Religions either control or influence goverments far beyond what they should be allowed to.
 

Texas Bill

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bob saunders said:
Even though I agree that the Catholic Church always looks after it's own interests first, I submit that it would be in their interests to have a goverment in place that was doing more to Govern the country in a manner that would provide more funds for the church and its programs. If the economy is healthy the church gets more. This is a truism in the DR. As far as separation of church and state, Tonys party, the republicans are controlled by the religious right, even though there is official separation of Church and State in the USA. Religions either control or influence goverments far beyond what they should be allowed to.

Bob;

We're NOT talking about what should be allowed, but what is.
As to the Religious Right in the USA, that is off-thread and I, for one, won't touch it!
What we're refering to is the role of the Roman Catholic Church in the DR and the power it exercises in this country; whether direct or indirect and to what degree!
The RCC has always had a great deal of influence on the governments of the countries in which it has a majority of population as members. France, Italy, Spain, virtually all of Mexico, Central and South America are cited as examples of such.
Also, one point should be made and that is this; the religious factions (churches) influence governments through their membership who vote for the representatives, senators and presidents, etc. and not directly.

And this thread is becoming convoluted!
I retire.

Texas Bill
 

Robert

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bob saunders said:
As far as separation of church and state, Tonys party, the republicans are controlled by the religious right, even though there is official separation of Church and State in the USA. Religions either control or influence goverments far beyond what they should be allowed to.

This is the reason threads get closed or deleted. I knew it would be just a matter of time :disappoin
This comment has ZERO to do with the DR.

Let me remind everyone, this is the debate forum and it's ONLY about debates relating to the Dominican Republic.
 

bob saunders

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It seems to me that other than the odd rogue priest the Catholic Church preaches restraint and non-violence. Perhaps the church is also a convient scapgoat for others(the elite) to blame excesses on. How bad can we be, we're not doing anything the church doesn't do. Since the majority of the Catholic priests in the DR are also Dominican perhaps they have the same problems with greed and coruption as their fellow Dominican politicians.
 

tired_boy

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I am only going to add one comment on this thought and that is that Jesus said in the bible that his kingdom is no part of this world, during his life he resisted all attempts on behalf of the jews to make him king and to become involved in political issues. Jesus always pointed to Gods kingdom as being the solution to mans problems.

I am not telling you my personal opinion because i am not into these kind of debates, i am just stating the fact that the churches trust 'should be in God', and yet they now look to politicians for solutions to problems. You could ask yourself 'do they really follow the bible (and their beliefs) anymore by being involved in human governments'. 'Do not put your trust in noble man, in whom no salvation belongs' is another biblical passage they might have forgotten.

Dont anybody jump down my throat please, i am simply stating what their 'guidebook' says and questioning whether or not their ideas have changed of recent years.

I am back off to 'general' and 'trip reports' now! It is safer in there. LOL
 

Tony C

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Lets get back on track here.

We won't talk religion. Lets talk organization. It shouldn't matter if the group is Catholic, Baptist, Jewish or Hindu. Better yet try not to think of any religion at all. So talk talk of God, Jesus, Allah, Vishnu,...ect. Save that for another fourm. Try to think of it as another type of Organization. Technically Non-Political.

We are talking about an Organization that has major property holdings throughout the country, has a budget in the Tens of Millions of $. Receives Millions of $ more in Public Funding yet pays no TAXES.(I am talking in the DR. World wide drop the "M" and add a "B") Yes they do provide some important and vital services(Education, Help for the poor...ect) but they will never open their financial records for public scrutiny. No other not-for-profit could get away with that. Even their most ardent surporters would find it hard to say that every cent goes to help the unfortunate.
This same organization now is getting less public funding and amazingly they have suddenly come out against the present Gov!
Do they have the Moral standing to do so? I am fully aware of the power they hold over a large part of the populace. Is it warranted?