My first Debate

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Talldrink

El Mujeron
Jan 7, 2004
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I have tried to steer clear from this portion of the Forum and I could not longer stand it. I see that most threads here are closed, and I guess with good reason. Most of the Haitian vs Dominicans get closed as well and those are the ones that seem most interesting, as so many people's true colors come shining through.

I want to start by saying that I am Dominican and have nothing against any other race, including the Haitians. In fact, my hairstylist is Haitian and she has been a great friend for about 12 years now. At her hair salon I've seen a slew of people come by, good, bad and ugly.

After reading one of the posts, I just HAD to say something. I did not appreciate this post at all:

...Back to what I was saying, haitians in the USA or more successful than dominicans in general. I am talking about the mass the 9 to 5 people. Dominicans barely can speak english and work at the bodega. Have u ever been to Washington Hgts.(I almost vomitted because of all the filth) Have you ever been to North Newark the dominicans there are even making the P-Ricans move out. Have you ever been to Boston dominicans are working at every Go-Go bar. The only profession I see you guys mastering is prostitution and hair salons. To make it worse the second genration can't speak spanish nor english correctly.

So here it goes:

Haitians to be more successful than the Doms - how and why do you say that. Name a few for me, because we can go on for days on the success of Doms both in the US, Dom Rep and around the wrold.

Doms barely speak English - Im sorry to break it to you, but I can tell a Haitian's accent ANYWHERE. Some of us learn the language, others dont. Same with the Haitians. So what is the point here?

.... most Doms work in Bodegas - yes baby, some do. Did you also know that they OWN these bodegas? and the others working by their side are the cousins and brothers and wives. Also, most bodegueros own their own house IN THE STATES and live a full life back home in DR. I dont remember the last business that is known to be owned by the Haitians.

Washington Hghts made you want to vomit, P ricans are moving out - this statement is LUDICROUS! One of the only countries known for its clean people is the DR! you can go to ANY Dom's home (rich or poor) and they will have everything neat and tidy and CLEAN. Im sorry, I've visited many Haitian homes and I cannot say the same. Some of these folks have money, cant tell though, the smell is the same whereever you go... As far as the P Ricans moving out of Newark, Please come back to reality, these people own Newark, there is nobody moving them out.

Working at Go Go's and Prostitutes - Oh, I forgot there are NO haitian girls in the US or in DR working in the oldest profession...

The second generation doesnt speak English or Spanish - give me a break. We are bilingual to the fullest. Too bad that Patua is not spoken in more countries than any other language like Spanish is.

So there, here is my first debate. I assume I will be closed shortly.
 

El Jefe

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Jan 1, 2002
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Having spent time in all three countries(Haiti, DR and PR) the cleanest was the DR. Most Dominicans seem to take pride in their home. The only time I did see problems were during strikes when sometimes the garbage increase. Puerto Rico, at least San Juan was (its been a few years) one of the dirtiest cities I ever saw. The beach area ws nice but when I had to go downtown to the DR Consulate it was terrible. Haiti might have had clean streets when the Docs were in charge but I wouldn't want to go there now. No government+no sanitation. No, I don't consider Aristides fling a government.

Can't speak about Washington Heights as I swore many moons ago that I would never go to NYC exceptto pass thru the airport, I have been to south Florida and find the Dominican Population getting more and more success as they become more assimilated into the community. The Haitians semm to spend most of their time crying to the Reverends Al and Jesse. Individually I am sure some have done well but they probably are part of the ones who got out with their fortunes earned during corrupt governments. This is the same as Dominicans, Cubans and others...the rich usually get out and get established then everyone else tries to catch up. The Haitians are relatively newcomers and hopefully in 10-20 years they will be where the Dominicans are now and the Dominicans will be caught up with the Cubans.

To say the Haitians are ahead of the Dominicans is either naive or an attempt at newspeak. I have to agree with Talldrink.
 
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Pib

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Jan 1, 2002
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I understand that you would need to vent at such nonsense. However, venting is not the same as debating. You see, you have to present us with a thesis that you'd like to defend, it might be hidden somewhere in your post but it isn't quite clear.

So what exactly is that you want to debate?
 

Criss Colon

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Jan 2, 2002
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I too find the Dominican People to be very clean!

Both in their personal hygiene,and in how they keep their houses,That said,once the dirt and garbage,old tires,junk cars,styrofoam /plastic containers,etc.reaches their front door,or gate,they just let it fly!!!!!!!!!!!!
I love the way the "Amas de la Casa" sweep,push,or
wash all the garbage "Down Hill"! Poor bastards living at the bottom get it all!
Personaly they are immaculate,communily they are a disaster!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
 

Talldrink

El Mujeron
Jan 7, 2004
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Well here's a debate...

Pib, you can call my post a vent, because I sure had to do it after reading some of these other posts. If you feel the need to move it,then do so. Some of the so-called Haitian movement people havent responded, Im pretty sure they will something to say about it.

Criss, I will take you up on this. Maybe where you live they are a disaster in cleaning their sidewalks, but where I'm from, that is not a problem. If the neighbor up the hill pushes the garbage down,then the people down the street push further and so forth. Very rarely do you see garbarge piled up in the street in front of someone's home, once it piles, they burn it. So to say that they are a disaster as far as cleaning is wrong and not in a long shot...
 

mountainfrog

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Dec 8, 2003
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What?s the Subject?

I am not really sure, what the subject is.
To me it seems to be: Tell me how tidy a peron she/he is and I tell you her/his nationality.
That, however, might go under "racism" or "garbage problems in DR".
There are very clean and tidy Dominicans and there are litterbugs and puercos. Very much so like in other countries.
If we are talking about percentages of population, well, that?s a different story.
M?frog
 

Jan

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Jan 3, 2002
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I agree with Criss. Dominican houses are the cleanest I've ever seen. Even in the poorer areas they sweep the dirt in front of thier homes. But when it comes to garbage outside its like they'er different people. The stuff is swept into the gutters and pushed farter by the next person til it ends up in the water.Just walk along the Malecon and look into the water. When there gets to be too much garbage in the water they just burn it. All those plastic bottles. What a stick it makes. Or look at a park in the morning. There are garbage cans and still everyone just leaves their bottles and such laying around. Here everyday there are people that clean the streets and they have way too much garbage to pick up in just one day.
I was having a little debate with a friend. Talking about excessive garbage. Like those disposable plastic razors for example. I dopn't like to use them as its my littl part not contributing to garbage that doesn't bio-degrade easily. She said that everyone uses them and why shouldn't I? I hear that alot here, everyone throws their garbage into the street so why not do it? I say just one person not making garbage helps.
Can't add anything about Dominicans or Hatians in USA. I never met any when I lived there. And never been to NY.
 

pasha

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Sep 4, 2003
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Talldrink....

I try to read the posts at least 3 - 4 times weekly and note you are a regular contributor. Perhaps I missed it, but when was the last time you were in the DR? I know that you're Dominican since you've pointed that out any number of times. Just curious....

Best, P
 

mountainfrog

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Dec 8, 2003
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More education!!

What lacks is a common sense of RESPONSIBILITY.
Here so many people if caught red-handed would automatically respond: No fui yo.
Even the president so many times shrugs his shoulders when confronted with his responsibilities. Pointing one?s fingers at others , giving the blame to neighbours etc. seems to be part of the Latino culture.
After a long weekend you can see long lines of big yeepetas leaving Las Terrenas with the people flinging out their garbage bags down the scenic mountain road. Of course many don?t do that ... they leave it at the beach.
At school children are not taught to respect their environment. Often teachers themselves are litterbugs.
Here people tread on this planet as if they had another one stashed away.
On the other hand the law against pollution and littering does exist, it?s just not enforced.
In Europe foam containers are prohibited, bottles and tins carry a deposit, almost everything is recycled on a community level.
In Singapore you are fined heavily for any littering or spitting. Chewing gum is banned from public transport .... In the US (so I was told) two-stroke-engines are prohibited.
But maybe many foreigners came to live here to live out the dirty personality in them? The Fre... seem to adapt very quickly here.
M?frog
 

Talldrink

El Mujeron
Jan 7, 2004
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pasha said:
I try to read the posts at least 3 - 4 times weekly and note you are a regular contributor. Perhaps I missed it, but when was the last time you were in the DR? I know that you're Dominican since you've pointed that out any number of times. Just curious....

Best, P

Pasha, I just came back in January. I go there at least twice a year. Why do you ask?

I do agree that the garbage is a problem. And that as far as throwing it out in the streets, is all true. When Im out with friends I dont dare leave anything behind and always try to look for a garbage can, not many around, but I seem to be the only one worrying about it. So that point I agree with.

What I dont agree with is what the Haitian Debate Team was saying, they were alluding to the fact the we keep trashy houses and are dirty people. Someone went as far as saying that the Doms are scaring others away. That is not true and I will argue about the cleanliness of homes and ourselves (bodies) to the end. I have been to too many of their homes and you cant compare the two.
 

pasha

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Sep 4, 2003
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TDrink.....

Talldrink said:
Pasha, I just came back in January. I go there at least twice a year. Why do you ask? QUOTE]
nothing deep in the question, just curiousity. I do note though that sometimes you seem of two minds. In one breath you talk about "their" houses as though Dominicans are strangers and at same moment talk about "our" cleanliness. Just an observation.

M'Frog....you are an astute observer and commentator.

Best, P
 

CES

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Jan 1, 2002
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and now this broad brush . . .

as in painting a picture devoid of much, if any, detail.

[for the newbies, Mrs. CES es una Dominicana with US citizenship and I'm a (expletive deleted) Gringo Norte type-o-guy and we've lived in N. California for 35+ years.]

For most/ some of/ a few of/ the Dominicans that we know (family, long time friends, casual acquaintances) that don't live full time in the DR there is an implied 90 day guarantee thing. I should add that this group would include but not necessary be limited too Dominicans that have lived in Europe (Spain in particular), and South and North America.

The 90 warranty thing: After recharging your Dominican culture experience thing (visiting the old neighborhood) for a period of time, you find that it's time to say "Thank you. It's been nice but I got to go now". In other words, just how many bachatas are too many? As in 24/7. . .

Oh, BTW, we love visiting the DR every chance we get and in the near future we'll be moving to Florida for our retirement and as a way to be in the "old neighborhood".

. . . CES
:alien:
 

Pib

Goddess
Jan 1, 2002
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I have to agree with Criss ...

::wait for lightning to strike::

...we pride ourselves in having clean homes and are almost obssesive when it comes to personal hygiene. B.O. is a huge faux pas in the D.R, but when it comes to littering, ut oh! I really don't get us!

As an aside, yesterday, after a meeting of the Lunch Research Foundation, Chirimoya and I encountered a citizen of a certain quasi-developed Asian country in front of a restaurant that shamelessly dropped a foam cup on the sidewalk out of the window of his brand new SUV. I went to him and told him "I think you dropped your cup" to which replied with a cold "yes" and shrugged it off and drove away. I gave him the Look of DoomTM :dead: Look for him in the obituaries.
 

XanaduRanch

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Sep 15, 2002
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Pib said:
...we pride ourselves in having clean homes and are almost obssesive when it comes to personal hygiene. B.O. is a huge faux pas in the D.R, but when it comes to littering, ut oh! I really don't get us!
But, it's true. For Dominicans, the home, and all responsibility seems to stop at the door. Anything outside the front door, front gate, etc. is S.E.P.*

Tom aka XR Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

*The letters stand for "Somebody Else's Problem". An S.E.P. field can be erected on, or projected around a bizarre and unbelievable scene so that the unconscious minds of the observers instantly abdicate responsibility for its existence, assert that it's "somebody else's problem", and therefore don't perceive it at all. The S.E.P. field requires much less energy than a normal invisibility field, due to the natural propensity of humans to see things as Somebody Else's Problem.

- Paraphrasing the late Douglas Adams in his Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series.
 
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JenniferDiaz

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Jan 31, 2003
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This is typical of Haitians.

This is just part of the Haitian agenda of trying to put Dominicans down, by spreading lies about us. They are always trying to lower us to their standards, that ways they feel better about themselves. They use international forums, newpapers, books, everyday talks, all they can to spread lies and malicious information about us.

But look, that mentality is what has them where they are today: a non-nation with contant conflic. I hope you all can see this relationship. Again, is never about the truth, is about what they want people to believe. This is why they can never agree and are always fighting.

After all, look at Haiti and look at DR, they are trying to cover the light of day with a finger.
 

Larry

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Mar 22, 2002
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Pib said:
As an aside, yesterday, after a meeting of the Lunch Research Foundation, Chirimoya and I encountered a citizen of a certain quasi-developed Asian country in front of a restaurant that shamelessly dropped a foam cup on the sidewalk out of the window of his brand new SUV.

Have you ever seen Chinatown in NYC? You want to talk about throwing garbage in the streets? I doubt from your post that the person you are referring to is Chinese but maybe it's an Asian thing. I dont think they believe in garbage pick up there; it just all goes intio the street. Disgusting!

At least Dominicans can feel some consolation in knowing that there are people somewhere else who care even less about the environment.

Larry
 

JenniferDiaz

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Jan 31, 2003
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important.

I also must add, that we have to refute this information point by point, beacuse there are people that do not know those are lies.
 
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JenniferDiaz

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Jan 31, 2003
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mountainfrog said:
Sorry, Jennifer. I don?t understand what you are referring to.
Haiti? The garbage problem in DR?
M?frog

If you read the first posting in this Thread ( by Talldrink ), you might understand.
 
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