Rural "Middle Class" Life?

Gregg

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Apr 26, 2004
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i am a new member to your forum. i spent an entire rainy, cold weekend reading the forums and archives. i went from relative ignorance to total confusion...all part of the learning process.

we too would like to move to the DR and have been researching like mad.

We would like to live on a small (less than 10 acres?) farm outside of a larger city where we can access services and goods when needed. We do need telephone but can provide our own electricity if we have to. We are envisioning a "middle class" Dominican home and an older car/truck. The cooler hills are attractive for us. Some Dominican middle class or farming prosperity would be good. Schooling is a big issue, we will accept more basic public schools and supplement at home if needed. We assume that most infrastructure drops away quickly once outside the cities. We would like to have access to the expate community, but not too close or else our immersion will not be as profitable. We have experience renovating/repairing houses and can do almost all work ourselves except forming concrete.


Here's the catch, can we do it for around $1000 USD per month for the first few years? We cannot rely on any business/employment income until we become proficient in language and culture (a good 12-24 months). We already own an entire household etc...


most of the forum discussions are about living as a retiree or a couple without school-age children. and most of the income estimates etc... are tied to more developed cities and communities. the discussions about maintaining a middle classs lifestyle are not dissimilar to issues we have in Canada(to a different degree, of course).


About Us:
a younger Canadian family already living in a rural setiing on a farm about 100 km southwest of Toronto. my wife and I are under 40 and in good health, we have 2 children, ages 10 and 12.

we are already hobby/subsistence farming and raising our own pigs, chickens and garden crops. no profit but excellent food and good exercise.

we have experience with:

intermittent power (up to 2-3 days without power!)
wells with contamination or running dry
heating all winter with wood
very poor roads, almost impassible in winter and spring without a 4*4
driving 25-45 km for every just about everything except eggs & smokes
paying for "private" or alternative health care
reduced level of education and school funding
freethinking in a very closed, white, European community
some petty theft and rip-offs for the "city" family
stray/wild animals, farm dogs, lots of insects
contributing and volunteering in our community
 

frank alvarez

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Apr 13, 2004
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Santiago Area

Gregg,
I assume you have been to the DR before and are familiar with it in order to be considering making such a big move. The most prosperous area of the country, outside of the capital Santo Domingo, is "El Cibao", or central -
northern area, specifically around Santiago. I would recommend looking in that area for a small farm as you desire since it would be the best and possibly least expensive with what you would get in return.
You would need to generate your own power for part of the day, probably, since electricity reaches just about everywhere but is not reliable. In the last few years inverters have become very popular, and they run from a 2-battery set-up to as many as 16 which can run everything. These charge when there is electricity and then the stored power is used when there is none being provided. Water in this area is not really a problem.
Santiago has large supermarkets where you can get any and everything, fast food chains if you would like to 'keep in touch' in that way, a couple of decent malls, movies, etc. and is only one hour away from Puerto Plata and all the other north coast tourist-oriented businesses.
US$1,000 monthly is enough to maintain a basic lifestyle once you have purchased your property and your vehicle.
If you have local contacts, by all means use them, even to help you negotiate for property or vehicles since the seller will raise the price to a foreigner, most likely. Hope this helps.
 

Gregg

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Apr 26, 2004
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Thanks for the quick response Frank. Yes, we are familiar with the DR and some other caribbean nations. We will still face a number of challenges. At first glance, outside Santiago or, maybe, San Francisco de Macoris would be a good choice.

We are slowly rejecting the larger tourist and expate areas because of cost. There may be more economic opportunities there but the overhead would force us into the "game" too early.

We plan to rent for the first while but we are impetuous at times and it will be hard not to jump at the first few properties. However, we do not want to change locations too much as this would be hard on the kids.

We don't have any contacts or network. Trying to limit the price gouging to the first rental propery and an over-priced used car. Next major purchases would be in the following months/year with us a little wiser (hopefully).
 

Criss Colon

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Jan 2, 2002
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So we are talking about 43,000 pesos a month,"Mas o Menos"?

Then you are talking about a very very "Basic" lifestyle!!!!
Just so you know,gasoline is about 100 pesos a gallon,If you have your own power plant,66 pesos a gallon for diesel fuel.Carton of milk,40 to 50 pesos."School" is just a place to "Warehouse" your kids for 4 hours a day!
Now how about medical care,and/or medical emergencys???
I now have 4 children,from 6 months to 12 years,and want to move to the "States" to educate them.
Read,"Mosquito Coast" by Paul Theroux the DR,especially the "Country"is very primative,and it is not cheap to live here!
Good Luck,you should at least have "Bail Money" if you all have to leave,
for whatever reason! CC
 

Gregg

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Apr 26, 2004
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Criss Colon said:
Then you are talking about a very very "Basic" lifestyle!!!!
Just so you know,gasoline is about 100 pesos a gallon,If you have your own power plant,66 pesos a gallon for diesel fuel.Carton of milk,40 to 50 pesos."School" is just a place to "Warehouse" your kids for 4 hours a day!
Now how about medical care,and/or medical emergencys???
I now have 4 children,from 6 months to 12 years,and want to move to the "States" to educate them.
Read,"Mosquito Coast" by Paul Theroux the DR,especially the "Country"is very primative,and it is not cheap to live here!
Good Luck,you should at least have "Bail Money" if you all have to leave,
for whatever reason! CC

Thanks Criss, I have noticed and appreciated alot of your input in the forums. Gasoline in Canada is over 100 pesos to the gallon now and still going up. Please note that we did say that the $1000 USD per month would be for the first year or two only. We already own most of the major household items so we can coast a bit. We do plan to earn income at some point but wanted to be realistic about the time frame. Even in Canada it takes a good year to make some venture profitable.

I can only speak to Canadian issues but I would offer the following thoughts:

Private healthcare is quickly becoming a reality as is private education. We have experienced first hand how quickly our own infrastructure is collapsing under the weight of healthcare and education costs. While I will plead ignorance of most DR issues, many expates make the mistake of comparing a current DR with their historical experience in their original country. The living standards in Canada have truly declined and the true rate of inflation is much higher than what they report in the media

The grass is always greener on the other side. I would venture to say that many become disillusioned with the Canada/U.S. societies too.
 

miguel

I didn't last long...
Jul 2, 2003
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Sir!!

Gregg, I will advise you to wait a little longer and plan very carefully and above all, save. I have been planning to move to the DR for quite a few years already and althought I can, financially, move there right now, you have a large family that you need to think of. Of course that you can move and live there with US $1,000 a month but my only concern is that you will have to pay rent and buy a car. Although 43 to 45,000 pesos a month is fine to start, your rent would take at least 7 to 15,000 of it (yes, there are houses that you can rent for much less than that, but you will need to look under a microscope to find them). A used reliable car would cost you from 200 to 700,000 pesos and then since it was used in the DR, you will need to make many repairs.
I am not trying to discorage you, not at all, I am just telling you that you need to save more and then when you can buy a home house, then yes, you can move over there with that amount. People that I know have been making it for MUCHHHHHHHHHH less than that but they knew before moving over there that their ways of life would HAVE to change completely. If you and your family take the same living mentality that you have now, there is no way that you will make it. Relocating to the DR is not a piece of cake, you WILL have to get use to so many things that you have not even seen or heard of.
It seems to me that you just want to live a quiet, simple life, so that tells me that you are a simple person. Just remember than when you move over there, there's no way that you will still do all the things that you did as a tourist.
Please try to educate us and tell you how many times have you been to the DR and for how many days was your stays and why are you thinking about moving there.
Again, if you are going to be one of these foreigners that want to move over there and live the "high life", moving to the nicests neighborhoods, eating in the nicest restaurants, have their kids attend the priceists private schools, dinning and wineing their high class friends, going to the most famous discos, giving money away to some of your "poor friends" (of should I say leashes, and YOU WILL get some of those), shopping at the most exclusives stores, bying the best clothes and spending as there is no tomorrow, then stay home. But since you don't sound like that, my friend, save to buy a home and YES, you will be able to make it with US $1,000.
Yes sierryyy. Good luck.
 

Peter6218

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Apr 20, 2004
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All the above very interesting.

But what about someone who wants to retire to the DR.

Would prefer an apt. Away from the big cities.

Is this even possible?

Any Advice appreciated.

Peter :cool:
 

miguel

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Jul 2, 2003
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Si!

Peter6218 said:
All the above very interesting.

But what about someone who wants to retire to the DR.

Would prefer an apt. Away from the big cities.

Is this even possible?

Any Advice appreciated.

Peter :cool:
Yes, Peter, it is possible but all I wrote to Gregg aplies to you too. See, all depends of if you have the capital to make it.
If you have the capital and have budgeted yourself, then by all means, move here and have your first Presidente for me.
 
Mar 21, 2002
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Constanza

Think about Constanza. Its cool year round and cold in the winter abot the 40 to 50 F range. The rest of the country will make your blood boil due to heat, humidity, rats and mosquitoes. Constanza folks are laid back enough for 2 frozen Canadians as yourselves. Just kidding- must put that in here because lately many on this site have very short tempers and don't have a sense of humor anymore. You guys know who you are. What is it?- your devalued money, lack of AC burning you out?
 

Gregg

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Apr 26, 2004
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Thanks Miguel,

I shoud clarify, my apologies. I felt we would have the $1000/month after we had purchased a property and vehicle.

So I do feel a little more encouraged.

I am pursuing a simple life. Our wants and needs have slowly changed over the last 10 years or so. It is because of these changes that we do not feel as comfortable in Canada as we did. I suppose the last 2 years for us have been the Canadian "Harrowsmith" experience with me hewing wood and drawing water.

I am trying to become more simple...but I am not a simple man. I have travelled (not just vacationed) in some interesting parts of the world and I would be coming to DR with eyes wide open. I have a background in technology and call centres and am educated. I have also lived in many years in Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver. Not quite the same thing I know, but please don't think I am country hick looking for a cheaper farm.

You'll note too that I am not talking about coming here circa age 50 with my retirement nest egg and opening a nightclub/hotel/restaurant just because I liked the beach and the hotel I once visited. I am very aware that we'll be babes in the woods. That is why I am trying to figure if I can get by until I get up to speed (a good two years). That is also why I have heeded some good advice here already that was "buy nothing, invest in nothing the first year and then decide..." or something like that.
 

Gregg

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Apr 26, 2004
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Thanks Onions and Carrots,

It does seem that there is quite a bit of negativity. It's hard to win here. If I just ask one of those open questions about moving here you get jumped on to do more research. If I try to explain who I am it appears that I already know everything.

I have read a great deal of the archives and have done a fair amount of research. All I can say is that I am trying hard.

We know we will have a hard time adjusting to the poverty and economic disparity between groups. I do have a real problem with garbage. We know we will be the outsiders for a long time to come.

I will look more into Constanza too.

We have worked really hard to wean ourselves off the Canadian teat. We eat very few processed/packaged foods. Almost everything is from scratch. We are already eating a similar diet (not the same variety though). Two of my family haven't even eaten wheat in the last few years... Shopping is not our sport and we are not typical by Canadian standards. Trying, within reason, to live at a more basic level. That is one reason why we know we need to be outside the city and be able to do a little farming...just as we do here.

Well enough self-justification. I am only digging a hole I suppose and alienating others at the same time. Just not accustomed to having to show all my credentials just to have a conversation. Maybe my tone seems too cold from the weather...
 

Lambada

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Mar 4, 2004
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Having the "right" attitude

is more important than having masses of money. If you see the challenges of living in the DR as opportunities rather than problems, you are already part way there. Sounds to me like you already approach life in this way.
When we came here nearly 12 years ago (2 adults, 1 dog, no children) I think we brought U.S.$3000 & that was it. We got jobs & lived a very simple life, living off our Dominican salaries. I know cost of living was cheaper then, it was easier to get jobs then etc etc. The point of this post is that we earned the respect of our neighbours & friends for NOT being filthy rich gringos. These friendships have endured over the years, even though we now have money, a nice house etc. We learned some invaluable lessons from those early years, which doubtless contibuted to how "at home" we feel here. I wish you all the very best with your move & leaving the rat race behind.
 

Criss Colon

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Don't "Buy" for a minimum of a year,better yet two!

Fact of the matter,it is cheaper to rent,than to buy here! And you won't tie up your capital!I think you will get 100% support on that from people who live here!Clear title to "farm land" is hard to obtain here.The dominicans have passed the titles,if there is a title,from hand to hand for years and years!they never pay the transfer taxes! They ddon'r seem to care,but I DO!
I have ducks,chickens,cats,dogs,and ate my pig,here in Santo Domingo! Lots of fruit trees,corn,beans,fruits etc.CC
 
Mar 21, 2002
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Criss Colon said:
Fact of the matter,it is cheaper to rent,than to buy here! And you won't tie up your capital!I think you will get 100% support on that from people who live here!Clear title to "farm land" is hard to obtain here.The dominicans have passed the titles,if there is a title,from hand to hand for years and years!they never pay the transfer taxes! They ddon'r seem to care,but I DO!
I have ducks,chickens,cats,dogs,and ate my pig,here in Santo Domingo! Lots of fruit trees,corn,beans,fruits etc.CC

You ate your pig! Man you're insensitive. When I was a child my grandfather gave me a girl pig. Her name was Totita. I cared for her till the end of her days. We never ate her. I loved Totita very much. No sick immoral jokes about her cuz I know you all too well Crisssssssssss Colonnnnnnnn.
 

miguel

I didn't last long...
Jul 2, 2003
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Hey Colon?

Criss Colon said:
Fact of the matter,it is cheaper to rent,than to buy here! And you won't tie up your capital!I think you will get 100% support on that from people who live here!Clear title to "farm land" is hard to obtain here.The dominicans have passed the titles,if there is a title,from hand to hand for years and years!they never pay the transfer taxes! They ddon'r seem to care,but I DO!
I have ducks,chickens,cats,dogs,and ate my pig,here in Santo Domingo! Lots of fruit trees,corn,beans,fruits etc.CC
What was the name of the piggy that you ate?. And you eat it all, you go dog. Next time save some for me and O&C.
 
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miguel

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Alrighty then!

Gregg said:
Thanks Miguel,

I shoud clarify, my apologies. I felt we would have the $1000/month after we had purchased a property and vehicle.

So I do feel a little more encouraged.

I am pursuing a simple life. Our wants and needs have slowly changed over the last 10 years or so. It is because of these changes that we do not feel as comfortable in Canada as we did. I suppose the last 2 years for us have been the Canadian "Harrowsmith" experience with me hewing wood and drawing water.

I am trying to become more simple...but I am not a simple man. I have travelled (not just vacationed) in some interesting parts of the world and I would be coming to DR with eyes wide open. I have a background in technology and call centres and am educated. I have also lived in many years in Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver. Not quite the same thing I know, but please don't think I am country hick looking for a cheaper farm.

You'll note too that I am not talking about coming here circa age 50 with my retirement nest egg and opening a nightclub/hotel/restaurant just because I liked the beach and the hotel I once visited. I am very aware that we'll be babes in the woods. That is why I am trying to figure if I can get by until I get up to speed (a good two years). That is also why I have heeded some good advice here already that was "buy nothing, invest in nothing the first year and then decide..." or something like that.
So, it's US $1,000 after you buy the house and a car, then I see no problem of you living in the DR. As I said before, people live there with much, much less than that.
 

Tom F.

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Jan 1, 2002
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I would recommend looking around the entire Cibao region if you want to live in a mountainous area. Constanza would be a great place. You will have to educate your children in English unless you live near Sosua, Santiago, Bonao. or Santo Domingo. (Add any other cities with English schools near mountains and I know SD is not near mountains.) These schools are not cheap either. In the DR, they only go a half day anyway, the other half can be for home schooling. I know the San Francisco de Macoris area well and would feel comfortable living a middle class rural existence because my wife's family contacts. I do not know how I would pick an area without some local support. We sold a solar system to Julia Alvarez's husband for nice home/farm outside of Jarabacoa. The Rio San Juan/Cabrera area is unbelievably beautiful. I have met "gringos" scattered all over the country. You don't see too many people moving down with school age children. I hope they are ready for a complete culture change. Learning Spanish like a native will be very valuable for them. I would try a 25-30 acre farm to start, depending on what you plan on doing. That way you can have plenty of citrus, mango and zapote trees. Also, you may want to contact Entrena about what they might be able to provide your family for an orientation of sort. The contacts you make there may be valuable as you try to integrate into the country.
 

Peter6218

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miguel said:
Yes, Peter, it is possible but all I wrote to Gregg aplies to you too. See, all depends of if you have the capital to make it.
If you have the capital and have budgeted yourself, then by all means, move here and have your first Presidente for me.

Since my income is from pensions there is less of a worry about capital.

It seems, from what I have read so far, that rental rather than ownership is the route to go?

Based on what i've seen for apt. rentals in Santo Domingo it is actually lower than where I currently live in Canada. Moving to a smaller city might even yield a more economical situation??

Peter
 

sjh

aka - shadley
Jan 1, 2002
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Gregg,

What you are wanting to do is possible but not easy nor cheap. Depending on the area, vehical, house, farm your set up costs could easily exceed 300K US.

From what I have read it almost seems like you havent actually visited here. Until you have been here several times, dont waste the time and effort thinking about living here..

As mentioned early, I have a site up about our life here at www.geocities.com/shadley000 While I am very very happy here, please keep in mind that I dont write about the bad stuff because mom reads the site.

Stephen