A fresh view on DR's corruption

anonymous1960 said:

"Sin embargo, la cultura dominicana no ha evolucionado lo suficiente para que los empresarios entiendan que un sistema capitalista sano debe permitir el desarrollo de una clase media saludable y de que ello debe estar acompa?ado de condiciones de calidad de la vida que aseguren un m?nimo de bienestar a todos los miembros de la sociedad."

http://www.clavedigital.com/ED15/Firmas/FI_CG_130704_01.htm

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I notice that there are no responsesto this post. Perhaps if the poster would translate to English, we might get something going here?

Texas Bill

For those intrested, here's my rough trans:

Nevertheless, the Dominican culture has not evolved to the sufficient stage in which the industralists understand that a healthy capitalist system must allow the development of a healthful middle-class and it must be accompanied by conditions of quality of life in which they assure a minimum well-being to all the members of society.

Well, that sounds like a cultural mindset for social classes, but not a real correlation to curruption to warrant a debate on the subject.

On the contrary, KD, I think what was posted lies at the root of the corruption problem.
In many societies, those with the economic power seek more power through the accumulation of more money, realizing that the money accumulated above and beyound their needs equates to power in both the economic and political arena. Thus, in their goal of gaining more power, they resort to those methods that will assure them of acquiring that power, sic-- bribery of government officials, suppliers and the like to effect that assurance. This eventually equates to monopolistic tendencies within the economic milieu by those industrial leaders leading to the exclusion stifling of competition.
Under such conditions, the beginner in the economic world cannot survive and this leads to a tremendous disparagement between economic and social levels.
You have but to look at the societies of Great Britain and the US in the early 19th century to see the results of such activity on the part of the "monied crowd'" in those societies. Or, in the DR today, for that matter. I'm afraid the middle economic class will goe the way of the Mexican middle class of the 70's if things don't turn around soon here.

Texas Bill

It pains me everytime to see my country fall in shambles because of corruption, I hate to hear about those 20-hour long Blackouts and poor education system. I don't want to blame Hipolito (for everything) because there's to many people in the government, I also feel bad for Leonel who will havr to fix all these problems (or most of them) because if he don't our country will have a dim future, I hope he can accomplish alot in these 4 years and not STEAL.

It pains me everytime to see my country fall in shambles because of corruption, I hate to hear about those 20-hour long Blackouts and poor education system. I don't want to blame Hipolito (for everything) because there's to many people in the government, I also feel bad for Leonel who will havr to fix all these problems (or most of them) because if he don't our country will have a dim future, I hope he can accomplish alot in these 4 years and not STEAL.

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capodominicano, I don't want to sound rude or anything, but I really don't like this helpless position you put yourself into. Why don't you do something to help the DR?

That's the problem with many folks in my country (I'm Dominican too, though of the higher up in the scheme of things), too many folks put themselves in the helpless position and expect someone else to do things right. If you don't do your part, the country is going nowhere. Remember, the DR doesn't just belongs to the rich, it also belongs to the middle class and the poor and as such, everyone must make an effort to better themselves. In return, that leads a full enhancement in the quality of life of all Dominicans.

I find myself in somewhat an ambiguous position here. I applied for a new company some 6 months ago to replace one of the ones i had formed. This application flew very well until the last phase which required review and approval of the application. All the paperwork was/is in order, but I find that a local has, through political maneuvering, caused a blockage to be placed on the application. That he will be a competetor to my business is, in my mind, very significant. It appears that he doesn't want any competition in the marketplace. To combat his interference, i have contacted the Senator from this district and wxplained the conflict to him. His remark was to go to Santo Domingo, retreive the paperwork, return to Manzanillo, get him and we would go back to Santo Domingo together where he would assure that the paperwork was properly signed, sealed and delivered so we could begin operations. Additionally, he stated he would eliminate the government employee causing the delay for his friend.

I guess what I am inferring is that unless one has polotical clout, or knows where and whom to sollicit for assistance, one can be hamstrung in his efforts to begin a business. Especially where the opposition doesn't wish for competition and has a connection in the government for support.

Texas Bill

No, I?m not offended but sometimes reading all of this negative press buts me in a pessimistic mood. I would like to help the DR but don't know how, My family owns land and have invested in the past but it is not enough, if you talk to much about politics and Dominican society people believe you are preaching and nobody likes a preacher. I?m just too young to change the system, I always talk about DR politics/situation to the Dominican-Yorks but people in my Generation, at least most of us Dominicans are just to "ghetto" to care, instead of taking advantage of the US education system, we would rather hang on the corner and smoke some weed. In the future I hope, once I graduate from college I can help the DR and join political movements but for now I can just hope that the next couple of governments will stabilize the DR. If I could so something now I would but what can a young adult do?

I do not believe that the government should help out the people a 100%, my beliefs are that a community can supply for themselves, but since this government has played a big part in the downfall of DR, hopefully the next can restore somewhat of the annual 8% growth we had during the mid 90s. I feel the same way that people should stop being lazy and help out, instead of complaining we have no jobs create jobs, from homemade restaurant to zapateros.

What can a young adult do? How about networking with your Dominican brothers & sisters of your own age to pass on some of the benefits, educationally, you feel you are getting? Writing articles, obviously you are bi-lingual, for Dominican magazines/newspapers? You, as a Dominican, stand much more chance of being "heard" than we gringos, but we gringos are heard also, I'm agreeably surprised to say!

What i think

Capo I see what you are trying to say, It may seem difficult to perceive how us young Dominicans living abroad are able to affect change upon the Dominican Republic. However, we that is the challenge that we face. Myself, for example struggle with the same idea "how"?

I thought of a program to erradicate corruption in the Dominican Republic, although I do not know how applicable it is. It entails having a person arise to power in with the vision of ending corruption by setting "examples" to be seen throughout the country, and the world with an attitude of "vamos a ver si es verdad que no se puede con la corrupcion." The notion is quite simple although perhaps controversial to some.

First, either with the total overhaul of DEPRECO or the creation of a new anti-corruption body compile evidence against those people who engage in what I would call the first level of illicit corruption related activities. This new body should be composed of young prosecutors born in the Dominican Republic, however educated outside of the country. These idealistic young men would be granted ample powers by the executive, and hopefully insulated from the general environment of patronage now in place.

Anyone, involved in drug related or financial emblezzement activities with international ramifications should be rendered special attention. The international piece is key because it would enable the DR gov't to work closely with its American counterpart (US Justice
Dept.) This caveat allows us to have a maximum effect on corruption while minimizing the impediments for the law to be applied.

Secondly, pursuing those violators at home whom have committed blatant abuses. Ensuring that the case "lands in the right place" be creating a special anti-corruption chamber. A panel of judges with an untarnished record of impartiality, and affording those judges an increased level of protection, perhaps seclusion.

I honestly believe it is much more than this that is required to reduce the influence of corruption on Dominican society.

principe said:

Capo I see what you are trying to say, It may seem difficult to perceive how us young Dominicans living abroad are able to affect change upon the Dominican Republic. However, we that is the challenge that we face. Myself, for example struggle with the same idea "how"?

I thought of a program to erradicate corruption in the Dominican Republic, although I do not know how applicable it is. It entails having a person arise to power in with the vision of ending corruption by setting "examples" to be seen throughout the country, and the world with an attitude of "vamos a ver si es verdad que no se puede con la corrupcion." The notion is quite simple although perhaps controversial to some.

First, either with the total overhaul of DEPRECO or the creation of a new anti-corruption body compile evidence against those people who engage in what I would call the first level of illicit corruption related activities. This new body should be composed of young prosecutors born in the Dominican Republic, however educated outside of the country. These idealistic young men would be granted ample powers by the executive, and hopefully insulated from the general environment of patronage now in place.

Anyone, involved in drug related or financial emblezzement activities with international ramifications should be rendered special attention. The international piece is key because it would enable the DR gov't to work closely with its American counterpart (US Justice
Dept.) This caveat allows us to have a maximum effect on corruption while minimizing the impediments for the law to be applied.

Secondly, pursuing those violators at home whom have committed blatant abuses. Ensuring that the case "lands in the right place" be creating a special anti-corruption chamber. A panel of judges with an untarnished record of impartiality, and affording those judges an increased level of protection, perhaps seclusion.

I honestly believe it is much more than this that is required to reduce the influence of corruption on Dominican society.

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principe,
An interesting idea - certainly I believe there needs to be both "carrot" & "stick". You make some suggestions for penalising corrupt officials, but how would you implement the "carrot"? I feel this needs to start in the home & the education system. If there was a lot of positive reinforcement of "non-corruption" attitudes from a very early age onwards, do you feel this would make a difference? Or would such lofty idealism go out of the window, if the child grew up to be an adult with a little bit of political power?
I also feel a non-partisan career civil service would help enormously.

Lambada;

Your comment about a "non-partisan civil service" is very appropriate.

We have had such a system in the US for about 100 years. While that system hasn't completely eliminated corruption it has mitigated it to the point of being unique within the system. The punishment is rather severe for those convicted and that has been a significant deterrent.

I have suggested such a system on several occasions on many threads, but haven't received much support for same. Maybe the idea is just too alien to consider at this point in the development of the Dominican psyche relative to government. I would hope that will pass with time and concentration.

Texas Bill

Lambada & Texas,

You point out something rather interesting in your exchange. Both of you have approaches with which I agree with, however, I do not know precisely how applicable these approaches would be considering the severity and pervasiness of the corruption situation in the Dominican Republic. As for Lambada's notion of education yes, good idea however, I would focus specifically at least initally on teaching children the harsh consequences of those committing this type of activity in a form incorporated into their schoolwork . Thus, raising a generation perhaps fearful of committing the act as opposed to one that is simply aware that an act is wrong.

Texas, points out that an apolitical civil service would provide a flow of civil servants whom perhaps may not be inclined to committ these types of acts as frequently. And, I must also agree with you since this idea is but advanced than our reality. For this action to effectively take root a social consciouness of "anti-corruption" must precede this step.

principe,
I have actually met very few children here in the DR who do not know the difference between right & wrong, & I include in that the children of economically poor & uneducated parents, many of whom have very high moral standards, which often go hand in hand with their religious beliefs. Sure, these kids may become "disaffected" teenagers, all kids go through that, but what I tend to notice is that when someone gets a little bit of power, he/she makes it hell for those beneath him in the "pecking order". I am wondering if people who generally feel powerless, have to use the little bit of power they have to reinforce a sense of self worth? And so the 10 year old makes his 7 year old brother do the heavy, dirty work.......& the adult official in government offices will take his "cut", because he sees his "big brother" the Minister of Migracion/ or the President, taking his?
And IF it is anything to do with this, I humbly submit it cannot be eradicated without dealing with poverty first.

I am new to DR!, and have only visited DR 5 times. I am planning top possibly establish residency here in my youthful "retirement" (we'll see how long THAT will last...:laugh: ).

I spoke with a Dominican friend recently about logistic issues in an upcoming trip there which involves bringing in an airplane among other items. He said to wait until after the new guys are in charge, because virtually all civil servents will turn over. He said that government jobs are political.

That is a serious problem, IMO. How can a country have any continuity without a non-political civil servant workforce? And how can a country establish any real economic growth without that continuity? And isn't econmoic growth what the DR really needs?

I don't mean to be critical, because I am in no position to critique. I accept things as they are, and will just roll with the punches. That doesn't mean I can't hope for the best for all the citizens and residents of DR.

You will find, in your research, that the DR has a clientist, nepotismistic political system. it doesn't matter which political party is in power. The higher jobs go to the ones who have paid in the most money to the winning party. They will then benefit the most to the "mordido" that must be paid at each level of operations by those who wish to be served by the government. It has been this way since the country was formed and is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. There is too much resistance to changing the system.

Texas Bill

Que sera, sera!

Don't want to be pessimistic but a system that's been entrenched for so long ain't gonna change until one of two things take place:Either a new generation of "untouchable" legislators enact and impose SEVERE penalties for graft, fraud and other "white crimes" ; or, (most likely) leave things well enough alone and concentrate on raising the GNP so that a new, wealthier middle class can (hopefully) rise above the need for ill-gotten $ and set a trend that can be followed by the next generation.-as long as the rule of law is in place and treated as a sacred cow.

While I don't wish to bring faith nor religion into this conversation, I feel that God's answer to Moses (when Moses asked who He was) answered,"I am that I am", signifying Himself to be Absolute!

I can't help but define the Spanish "Machismo" attitude in the same vein, whereby most assume that attitude towards others in an attitude of being better and more strong than those to whom they speak and act. It is a form of arrogance that infers infallibility on the part of the individual and is, in my observations a universal attribute of Spanish males(others, also. You're not alone).

(Edited and added)

The above is a characteristic of the so-called "Aristocrats" of every Nation. They have been raised in an atmosphere of priviledge and command throughout history and feel themselves to be the only ones who are qualified to lead their nation/tribe.
Such an attitude fomented the French Revolution, the American Revolution, the Labor Revolution in GB, the Russian Revolution, the Chinese Revolution and many others that I really can't specifically cite. It is significant that such "revolutions" have, and are, taking place throughout the SA countries presently and in the immediate past.

The drive behind such is the basic fact that people get tired of being "have-not's" and attempt to do something about it, not realizing that it only through a thorough understanding of worldwide economic interaction that a nation can elevate itself and it's constituancy economically.

No form of government will truly solve the problems of economically deprived nations until the basic education system is capable of informing that society of the basic requirements for success.

The systems of Socialism and Communism depend on a healthy economy and a benevolent government to be successful. A firm agricultural base, a strong industrial base coupled with the availability of the necessary raw materials for production of goods are necessary ingredients which haven't/don't exist(ed) in the SA environment. I include the Caribbean and CA in this scenario.

Again, it's difficult to think about draining the swamp when you're up to your a** in alligators. Howsomever, it must be done.

Now, you've made me forget what the discussion was all about!!

So much for attention span!

Texas Bill


And I don't mean that in an arrogant manner, although it seems to be coming out that way. My apologies for offending.

Texas Bill

Foreign educated Dominicans

Quote:
Capodominicano said: It pains me everytime to see my country fall in shambles because of corruption, I hate to hear about those 20-hour long Blackouts and poor education system. I don't want to blame Hipolito (for everything) because there's to many people in the government, I also feel bad for Leonel who will havr to fix all these problems (or most of them) because if he don't our country will have a dim future, I hope he can accomplish alot in these 4 years and not STEAL.

Quote:
NalOwhs said: capodominicano, I don't want to sound rude or anything, but I really don't like this helpless position you put yourself into. Why don't you do something to help the DR?

That's the problem with many folks in my country (I'm Dominican too, though of the higher up in the scheme of things), too many folks put themselves in the helpless position and expect someone else to do things right. If you don't do your part, the country is going nowhere. Remember, the DR doesn't just belongs to the rich, it also belongs to the middle class and the poor and as such, everyone must make an effort to better themselves. In return, that leads a full enhancement in the quality of life of all Dominicans.End of quote.


It is the foreign educated Dominicans that have made this country great and a reason for Dominicans to be proud of their heritage. Almost all of the truely great Dominicans left this country to further their education and then returned here to better the lives of all Dominicans. The first person of this caliber was Juan Pablo Duarte who left in 1828 to be educated in England, France and Spain. He returned in 1833 and the rest is history. It is these Dominicans, and there have been many, that saw how other countries do things along with furthering their education and then returned here and made a difference through change. Leonel is another of these foreign educated Dominicans but it's a tough row to hoe when you are alone. Now is the time for those of you that are Dominican and have some education to get inspired and involved in the congress and/or senate for the 2006 elections. If Leonel had educated and enlightened people, who have the interests of the Dominican people in mind, in the government this country would grow and prosper so fast it would make your head swim. Enlighten the masses as to how things should be done and teach them how their representives have not properly represented them and how they can change everything with their vote in 2006.

PS: There are those that will say El Ladron, eccuse me Hippo was foreign educated but one semester in NC State Univ on how to grow tobacco does not constitute a foreign education.

Rick