Discrimination Just for been Haitian

simpson Homer · Jul 16, 2004

It's hard to believe what's going on lately with some Hatian citizen in the Dominican Republic who are working illegaly in there.

I know law is blind but in the Dominican Rep. law have one eye with good vision specially in Immigration. most countries Illegal worker get a fine or deported with out matter where that person come from.

Look it in this way. Now and always has been a immigration bus taking out every Haitian who doesn't have work permit or Dominican Visa.

But is a HUGE shame that they don't take those foreignor who are working illegaly in the Dominican Rep. specially in the Turism field.

I don't see the problem that Haitian could cause just for work construction where Domicans don't do it.

But there are a major problem, hotels hire foreignor people.

In USA and any other country they deport any body who is working illegally
not matter color or from where you come from, is out that you will go if you are immigrant working illegaly.

PS: I'm really sorry if my coment is really strong for some people here in the board but immigration law has to apply for every body in the Dominican Rep. not just for Haitian.

Lambada · Jul 16, 2004

You are absolutely right, it should be the same for every illegal worker. I personally witnessed a very over the top incident last week, when Haitian construction workers were marched off at gunpoint by police, having been roughly handled first. As soon as the pistols were drawn I ducked for obvious reasons. I have never seen a group of illegal German, British or American tour guides/tour sellers handled in the same way.

Rocky · Jul 16, 2004

Utopia,

Lambada said:
You are absolutely right, it should be the same for every illegal worker. I personally witnessed a very over the top incident last week, when Haitian construction workers were marched off at gunpoint by police, having been roughly handled first. As soon as the pistols were drawn I ducked for obvious reasons. I have never seen a group of illegal German, British or American tour guides/tour sellers handled in the same way.

In an ideal world, everybody would be treated equally, regardless of race, religion or political beliefs, but the Dominicans have a long standing dislike for Haitians, stemming all the way back to the days when Haiti invaded and took over Santo Domingo and most of the country.
To compound the problem, darkness of skin is associated with being of lower class and people of fair skin are considered to be elite.
This is a story about racism and it affects Dominican Immigration department politics.
Look at the treatment the Japanese in America got after Pearl Harbour.

Oche · Jul 16, 2004

Good comparison Rocky. Asians were discriminated for ages in the US after WW2.

As for Lambada's comment, i'm not sure about other foreigners being exempt of bad treatment. You just have to take a look at the dominican police and its members which are constanly on the lookout for that opportunity to nail any white foreign victim for some pesos.

The race issue is a double edge sword. It's true that the darkness of skin is associated with lower classes, but a fair skin would not exempt for getting hassled by the police either, since there is this universal presumption among dominicans that anyone light skinned or white has enough money to go about his/her business. So from this presumption, anyone light skinned or white is considered economically viable.

MrMike · Jul 16, 2004

Well it might help if we all kept in mind that this is not necessarily discrimination. Generally Europeans and North Americans who are here illegally are providing valuable services to the country, including employing Dominicans and improving the quality of sevice in the tourist industry in a way that would be impossible for locals due to language and cultural barriers.

The benefits reaped by the country by Haitian immigrants is easier to debate, since obviously there is a need for them or they wouldn't be working, but at the same time they compete directly with lower income Domnicans who are already having a hard enough time and are certainly not responsible for Haiti's problems. They do vote however in local and national elections so the powers that be need to be seen to at least try to stem the flood of illegal workers.

Also there must be several hundred (maybe thousands) of Haitians in the country illegally for every non Haitian illegal. For one thing, the other nationalities can't just walk across the border. So if you see 200 Haitians ronded up and marched back home and 1 other foreigner dealt with similarly that's pretty much the ratio you would expect if Dominican immigration practiced "affirmative action".

Also, let's say you are a Dominican Cop, (Don't strain yourself, some of them CAN read.) you've got a Belgian on one hand who has money, documents, (just not the correct ones) living and working in a Hotel and generally liked by everyone he spends money on and employs, and then you've got 3 Haitian families of squatters in an unfinnished construction site bathing in rainwater runnoff, with 0 documents and 50 pesos between them.

The Belgian can be told to go to such and such office, pay such and such fine and file various papers, the Haitians... well it's pretty hopeless so into the truck they go. The neighbors have been complaining about them for months and the local burglars are using them as scapegoats, so the solution seems obvious.

ltsnyder · Jul 16, 2004

Calling a spade a spade . . . . .

Look, let's be honest here. Any Haitian trying to do work in the DOminican Republic is a sterotype (i.e. 99.99%) can all be assumed to be dirt poor, own nothing but what that have on thier backs and have nothing (as far as capital assets) to lose by running away. Now I'm sure you can sit back from a distance and say "The policeman should not have drew his gun", but if you had thier job, and all you wanted to worry about is getting home to your wife and kids, you'd have your gun drawn too. As sad as it may seem, for many Haitians, the work is close (or is) a matter of life or death. Could you imagine how much tourism would surge if your were laying on a beach chair and saw some tourist being lead away from the beach by Dominican policemen with pistols drawn.

Boy that would be a sight. . .

I have some land on the edge of town (Puerto Plata), one day I was walking around my small peice of property (1000m2 , it boarders fields) and I saw this Haitian young boy/man laying in the drainage gutter next to the wall of the house property that boarders mine. At first I thought he was sleeping, but then when I looked he looked like he was shaking (maybe mastrabating? I had no idea ok wall he wasn't), but he was there and in retrospect very nervous. I tried to ignore him and walk on. Later that day with some of my DR friends in that area, we saw the policia looking for Hatians with out working papers. Everything clicked at that moment. The policia where going up the pasture looking for them but on that day to no avail.

Haitians are viewed in the DR as a cheap labor source, any one that wants to get something done, wants Haitian labor, but every one does not want them camping out in thier area, because it increases petty theft, and you generally don't feel safe walking around with people who have fallen so far down the economic later that they have nothing left to lose.

-Lee

Rocky · Jul 16, 2004

Astute

MrMike said:
Well it might help if we all kept in mind that this is not necessarily discrimination. Generally Europeans and North Americans who are here illegally are providing valuable services to the country, including employing Dominicans and improving the quality of sevice in the tourist industry in a way that would be impossible for locals due to language and cultural barriers.

The benefits reaped by the country by Haitian immigrants is easier to debate, since obviously there is a need for them or they wouldn't be working, but at the same time they compete directly with lower income Domnicans who are already having a hard enough time and are certainly not responsible for Haiti's problems. They do vote however in local and national elections so the powers that be need to be seen to at least try to stem the flood of illegal workers.

Also there must be several hundred (maybe thousands) of Haitians in the country illegally for every non Haitian illegal. For one thing, the other nationalities can't just walk across the border. So if you see 200 Haitians ronded up and marched back home and 1 other foreigner dealt with similarly that's pretty much the ratio you would expect if Dominican immigration practiced "affirmative action".

Also, let's say you are a Dominican Cop, (Don't strain yourself, some of them CAN read.) you've got a Belgian on one hand who has money, documents, (just not the correct ones) living and working in a Hotel and generally liked by everyone he spends money on and employs, and then you've got 3 Haitian families of squatters in an unfinnished construction site bathing in rainwater runnoff, with 0 documents and 50 pesos between them.

The Belgian can be told to go to such and such office, pay such and such fine and file various papers, the Haitians... well it's pretty hopeless so into the truck they go. The neighbors have been complaining about them for months and the local burglars are using them as scapegoats, so the solution seems obvious.

Very astute remarks, Mike.

simpson Homer · Jul 16, 2004

Not reason

I understand your point but I think immigration has to have the law working not just for Haitian it have to be for every illigal worker. Just Imaging to have a convicted for murder working in an resort as guest service or working saling excursion. I don't mean the DR have to be perfect but the problem is chasing just Haitian.

I know some freignor are providing jobs to Dominicans in this case still they have to have Documentation for legal reason.

there is not diference in a Black Haitian or white person generally foreignor.

Look it this, Cabarete is Full of foreignor working illegally why because the owners. With out mention Punta Cana it was a Bar owner Italian 95% Italian.

Is not that Dominican have not capacity, is that Immigration is Not working Drma with the Haitian like is the main problem.

Just to tell, I witnessed a big discrimination last year.

I was having to girl from Colombia as co-workers "donkeys" I was doing my job ad their job many times because they were not having preparation for that position. Not English, Not french, not italian. NOT WORK PERMIT

Then Haitian guy clean, organized, speaking French, portugues, German, English, Spanish and Italian. the guy did not get the job because he was not having work permit. Man I felt so bad,I had a big argue with my supervisor for that I could not work that day I left the area for that day because I could not keep seing my to donkeys co-worker.

MrMike said:
Well it might help if we all kept in mind that this is not necessarily discrimination. Generally Europeans and North Americans who are here illegally are providing valuable services to the country, including employing Dominicans and improving the quality of sevice in the tourist industry in a way that would be impossible for locals due to language and cultural barriers.
.

Rocky · Jul 16, 2004

Donkeys?

simpson Homer said:
I understand your point but I think immigration has to have the law working not just for Haitian it have to be for every illigal worker. Just Imaging to have a convicted for murder working in an resort as guest service or working saling excursion. I don't mean the DR have to be perfect but the problem is chasing just Haitian.

I know some freignor are providing jobs to Dominicans in this case still they have to have Documentation for legal reason.

there is not diference in a Black Haitian or white person generally foreignor.

Look it this, Cabarete is Full of foreignor working illegally why because the owners. With out mention Punta Cana it was a Bar owner Italian 95% Italian.

Is not that Dominican have not capacity, is that Immigration is Not working Drma with the Haitian like is the main problem.

Just to tell, I witnessed a big discrimination last year.

I was having to girl from Colombia as co-workers "donkeys" I was doing my job ad their job many times because they were not having preparation for that position. Not English, Not french, not italian. NOT WORK PERMIT

Then Haitian guy clean, organized, speaking French, portugues, German, English, Spanish and Italian. the guy did not get the job because he was not having work permit. Man I felt so bad,I had a big argue with my supervisor for that I could not work that day I left the area for that day because I could not keep seing my to donkeys co-worker.

Care to elaborate on the donkey thing?

simpson Homer · Jul 16, 2004

Stupid

Donkey = Burra or Burro = in propper English Stupid = Spanish (Estupido o Estupida) I guess! it's mean stupid

The propper word I should use Lazy or Useless maybe

Indie · Jul 16, 2004

Ooohh. When I read 'donkeys' in the same sentence as 'Colombia', I thought you meant MULES.

My bad.

Lambada · Jul 16, 2004

Out of interest, the recent incident which I witnessed, referred to above, included some rough handling of the unarmed Haitian construction workers. I did not witness the blow, because self preservation had me ducking behind a wall when the guns came out, but certainly one of the Haitians received a head injury & was carried off, viz could not walk. I agree that white illegal foreigners are targetted in different ways (i.e. for money) but that did not make what I saw excusable. My Dominican neighbours (wealthy & well travelled) were noticeably unconcerned - they felt the Haitians were doing a lot of fighting among themselves, so it was a good thing a few had been removed. And my neighbours are really nice, kind caring people. They had absolutely no sense of outrage at what we all witnessed. Different strokes for different folks, I guess!

simpson Homer · Jul 16, 2004

Human Rights

Does anybody knows what is Human rights in Dominican Rep.?

Not punishmenent for those who abuse about it. I don't know how human rights work, deport someone who is Illegal in the DR I am agree but I am not agree about abuse.

Goverment where are you? I would not be surprise if a Haitian get shot trying to scape from immigration.

ERICKXSON · Jul 16, 2004

STOP NOW! guys stop beign so ignorant about THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC AND FREAKING READ! HAITIANS OUT PERIOD.

simpson Homer · Jul 17, 2004

Out what

Maybe is funny for you to say!

Is not about ignorancy is about discrimination.

Would you like to be Treated like that too, Put yourself in the same place!
yes all who are Illegaly working out not just Haitian.
That doesnt apply for those who has business well "some people"

Jumping back to 1999 my first time in Punta Cana on the bus I toke from Higuey to Bavaro at 8:00pm stop in one Parador in Beron.
Guess what immigration was there taking all illegal haitian but the good thing is that one representative from the Haitian consulate was there to make sure every thing was ok and that were not discrimination.

ERICKXSON · Jul 17, 2004

Simpson have you been to the Haitian side? have you seen the way they treat Dominicans ( I GUESS NOT) relax man this is a 2 way relationship in which Dominicans and Haitians are involve, History will be the judge.

Rocky · Jul 17, 2004

Exactly right.

ERICKXSON said:
Simpson have you been to the Haitian side? have you seen the way they treat Dominicans ( I GUESS NOT) relax man this is a 2 way relationship in which Dominicans and Haitians are involve, History will be the judge.

We are talking about 2 nationalities who dislike each other.
You might even say they hate each other, so why would anybody be surprised by the way Immigration treats them?
Is it correct? No.
Can we do anything about it? No.
Will it continue? Yes.

MrMike · Jul 17, 2004

simpson Homer said:
I was having to girl from Colombia as co-workers "donkeys" I was doing my job ad their job many times because they were not having preparation for that position. QUOTE]

Dude, you need a spelling and grammer checker, This sentence brings alot of wierd images to mind, mainly columbian girls in wierd positions with donkeys in various stages of preparation. Sorry you're having to work so hard, I do not envy that "position".

simpson Homer · Jul 17, 2004

Hi

Surprise!

I have been in Haiti 4 times and still door open to gobck there at any time,
they did not treat m different and saw a few Dominicans woking there actually they live in Hotel Hatt in Port au Prince. I don't have problem with Haitian. I am 100% Dominican.

I know is Historical problem, still not reason treat them like animals.

To Mrmike:

I know, I might not write or speak the propper English but how is your spanish?
to get the point for you and any other who does not understand me:

"I was working with 2 Illegal Colombian girl who were doing nothing because were having low skills" while " a Haitian having good skill got refuse to work at the Hotel" Let me know if you want me write it for you in spanish myb could be easier for you! And I would not have problem with grammar spelling.

PS: This thread could be close at any time Im not going to waste my time with you guys. Have a nice weekend and mucho Brugal.

Adios

ERICKXSON said:
Simpson have you been to the Haitian side? have you seen the way they treat Dominicans ( I GUESS NOT) relax man this is a 2 way relationship in which Dominicans and Haitians are involve, History will be the judge.

MrMike · Jul 17, 2004

Your post was hilarious, Simpson, you must have a sense of humor or you would have picked a different handle.

My Spanish is and has been fluent for over 15 years, but I still have to use a spelling and grammar checker when I write in Spanish because it will never be my native language.

I am sure you are aware that you are free to hire any Haitians you would like to, shouldn't be hard to keep the immigration folks off of their backs if they are important to you.

If you are not in a position to hire anyone, then I hope that by the time you are, you will retain your current idealism AND PRACTICE IT or else have a good reason why you don't; as I'm sure the operators of your hotel do.

Discrimination Just for been Haitian

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