Christopher Columbus Revealed!!

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/columbus/columbus.html?through=campaign|columbus|aolnews

For those of you living here in the DR and have Satelite, turn to the Discovery Channel at 10pm. I guess the same is for those living in the US.

Hopefully, we might be able to have a nice discussion on this afterwards. This is interesting to say the least.
 

juancarlos

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Sep 28, 2003
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Nal0whs said:
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/columbus/columbus.html?through=campaign|columbus|aolnews

For those of you living here in the DR and have Satelite, turn to the Discovery Channel at 10pm. I guess the same is for those living in the US.

Hopefully, we might be able to have a nice discussion on this afterwards. This is interesting to say the least.

Thanks, for reminding us Nal0whs. It was shown at 7:00 pm here in California and it was just that time when I saw your post. I watched the program, the conclusion they arrived at was that Colon was not Italian at all! They said he was a Catalan, they said he was not Jewish either, as some had speculated, however, they could not confirm the bones studied belonged to him. It was his son's -or were they his brother's bones? I don't recall now-which provided that info. I had previously read that they had concluded those bones in question were not his, so they were soliciting permission to extract the DNA from the ones buried in Sto. Domingo. I have not heard or read of any further developments on the case.
 

quejeyoke

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Jun 20, 2004
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the program also concluded that since they couldn't get results beyond reasonble doubt, they were going to hold some bone examples and results for when DNA tech is more advanced to do tests again. I could care less whether colon was from spain or italy or a jew but some spanish guy is trying to prove that colon was from spain and not from italy as colon never wrote a word in italian in none of his salvaged manuscripts even though he "left italy in his 20's".
 

NALs

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Well, I watch it and I'm slightly dissatisfied with the info they gave based on a few things.

1. They said that Diego Colon was Christopher's brother. Not true, Diego Colon was one of Columbus's son who ruled the entire hemisphere from the Columbus Alacazar in Santo Domingo. Columbus's brother was Bartolomeo, the founder of SDQ.

2. They probably were using the bones of Diego, who died in Spain and was buried there. His father is probably at the Faro A Colon here in SDQ based on a few possibilities:

(A) Records show that Columbus's brother "Bartolomeo" has been missing from SDQ and it is believe his body was the one transferred to Havana when the French took control of SDQ and then sent to Spain when Americans took control of Cuba.

(B) The priest (I believe it was Billini) while restoring the Cathedral of Santa Maria here in Santo Domingo, they found a sealed chapel where they found an elaborate box with the words in Latin "Here lies the Admiral Christopher Columbus". This happened around the mid to late 1700s, and from that point forward it the dispute has grown. Spain claims they have the right Columbus, SDQ claims that the wrong bones made the journey based on the evidence found by the priest. The truth is that both have a Columbus, the issue is figuring out which one is Christopher.

(C) Also, because the removal of the flesh from the body was a common practice to corpses that used to be kings and queens, it makes more sense that the bones they were looking into were those of Diego. Diego WAS a viceroy of the new world (as was promised to Columbus after his first Voyage by the king and queen of Spain). Also, Diego Columbus lived in Santo Domingo with his wife Maria de Toledo. The interesting thing is that Maria de Toledo was a niece of King Ferdinand of Spain (also known as Charles V). BTW, Calle Las Damas was named after Maria de Toledo and her friends habit of walking up and down that imperial Santo Domingan street every Sunday.

3. They discarted any possibility that his bones might be in Santo Domingo based on the evidence of flesh removal from the bones in Spain. As explained above, they probably were testing Diego's bones.

4. I'll be ready to accept that Columbus was a Spaniard after all, but not until I do more research into this aspect of him. One of the reasons why the program suggest he is from Barcelona and not from Genova is because he always wrote in Spanish. But, of course he was going to write in Spanish! And of course he was going to be considered a Spaniard because much of Italy was under Spanish control at the time! Italians were Spaniards at the time and they had to speak Spanish since it was the lingua Franca in business and trade in those times. In addition to that, what good would it be for Columbus to send a letter in Italian to the Spanish monarchs? Again, this is something that needs to be looked into in much more detail. Also, notice that all of the scientist were Spaniard. They might have a want or desire to make Columbus a Spaniard even if he wasn't. This Columbus deal is very close to the hearts of Spaniards, Italians, and to some extent in the Dominicans.

5. The suggestion that he was a Jew is not very likely in my mind. He might have been a missionary or something, if you notice on his writings you will notice that he does mention God and "the Mission God gave Columbus". I have come to the conclusion after much research that one of Columbus's motives was to spread Christianity into the Holy Land once again. Remember the inquisition against mostly Muslims in Spain was in full force during Columbus's time and as such, it makes sense to assume that Columbus was not very happy with his Arabic neighbors.

Also, the Scientist were not able to get their hands on the bones in Santo Domingo based on the fact that the Dominican authorities don't trust the Spaniard in this one. A debate came up last year with the conclusion that the bones won't be made available to the Spaniards because the test are being done 100% by Spanish scientist. The possibility that they will switch the Dominican bones with the one they currently have if they find that Santo Domingo did had Columbus' bones is too great. The Dominican authorities also wanted to test to be done here on the island, but the Scientist don't want to becuase the proper equipment is found abroad for suchthing. Those are just the rumors, don't really know what happened.
 

Narcosis

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Dec 18, 2003
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Nal0whs said:
Well, I watch it and I'm slightly dissatisfied with the info they gave based on a few things.

1. They said that Diego Colon was Christopher's brother. Not true, Diego Colon was one of Columbus's son who ruled the entire hemisphere from the Columbus Alacazar in Santo Domingo. Columbus's brother was Bartolomeo, the founder of SDQ.

2. They probably were using the bones of Diego, who died in Spain and was buried there. His father is probably at the Faro A Colon here in SDQ based on a few possibilities:

(A) Records show that Columbus's brother "Bartolomeo" has been missing from SDQ and it is believe his body was the one transferred to Havana when the French took control of SDQ and then sent to Spain when Americans took control of Cuba.

(B) The priest (I believe it was Billini) while restoring the Cathedral of Santa Maria here in Santo Domingo, they found a sealed chapel where they found an elaborate box with the words in Latin "Here lies the Admiral Christopher Columbus". This happened around the mid to late 1700s, and from that point forward it the dispute has grown. Spain claims they have the right Columbus, SDQ claims that the wrong bones made the journey based on the evidence found by the priest. The truth is that both have a Columbus, the issue is figuring out which one is Christopher.

(C) Also, because the removal of the flesh from the body was a common practice to corpses that used to be kings and queens, it makes more sense that the bones they were looking into were those of Diego. Diego WAS a viceroy of the new world (as was promised to Columbus after his first Voyage by the king and queen of Spain). Also, Diego Columbus lived in Santo Domingo with his wife Maria de Toledo. The interesting thing is that Maria de Toledo was a niece of King Ferdinand of Spain (also known as Charles V). BTW, Calle Las Damas was named after Maria de Toledo and her friends habit of walking up and down that imperial Santo Domingan street every Sunday.

3. They discarted any possibility that his bones might be in Santo Domingo based on the evidence of flesh removal from the bones in Spain. As explained above, they probably were testing Diego's bones.

4. I'll be ready to accept that Columbus was a Spaniard after all, but not until I do more research into this aspect of him. One of the reasons why the program suggest he is from Barcelona and not from Genova is because he always wrote in Spanish. But, of course he was going to write in Spanish! And of course he was going to be considered a Spaniard because much of Italy was under Spanish control at the time! Italians were Spaniards at the time and they had to speak Spanish since it was the lingua Franca in business and trade in those times. In addition to that, what good would it be for Columbus to send a letter in Italian to the Spanish monarchs? Again, this is something that needs to be looked into in much more detail. Also, notice that all of the scientist were Spaniard. They might have a want or desire to make Columbus a Spaniard even if he wasn't. This Columbus deal is very close to the hearts of Spaniards, Italians, and to some extent in the Dominicans.

5. The suggestion that he was a Jew is not very likely in my mind. He might have been a missionary or something, if you notice on his writings you will notice that he does mention God and "the Mission God gave Columbus". I have come to the conclusion after much research that one of Columbus's motives was to spread Christianity into the Holy Land once again. Remember the inquisition against mostly Muslims in Spain was in full force during Columbus's time and as such, it makes sense to assume that Columbus was not very happy with his Arabic neighbors.

Also, the Scientist were not able to get their hands on the bones in Santo Domingo based on the fact that the Dominican authorities don't trust the Spaniard in this one. A debate came up last year with the conclusion that the bones won't be made available to the Spaniards because the test are being done 100% by Spanish scientist. The possibility that they will switch the Dominican bones with the one they currently have if they find that Santo Domingo did had Columbus' bones is too great. The Dominican authorities also wanted to test to be done here on the island, but the Scientist don't want to becuase the proper equipment is found abroad for suchthing. Those are just the rumors, don't really know what happened.

Thanks for the "heads up" on this subject although I missed it last night.

I had introduced this very subject in the "America??" thread a few months ago and would like to point out a few aspects you are overlooking.

1. The original letters have not been found but are said to be in Catalan.

2. The "copies" or the exsiting letters are in Castilian and have many gramatical errors that experts have shown are due to the fact these are actually translations, of the original letters, made in Barcelona from Catalan to Castillian.

3. The depth, stlye and descriptions are, according to language experts, the style of an upper-class citizen of the time, and not a poor uneducated person as is assumed by a supposed Genovese origin.

4. The names of some of the Caribbean islands Colom gave them have a direct connection to Cataluna and would be unlikely names if he was of Italian origin, names that would not even please the Castilian Kings that financed the trips, if it was not for a strong connection these same names have with the Catholic church instead of just common names linked to a beloved Catalan homeland. names such as Monserrat, Nuestra senora de la Antigua, San Cristobal y Nieves (St. Kitts & Nevis), Las Vigenes, Virgen Gorda (After the 11,000 virgin followers of St. Ursula), etc.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Anything I say on this response are just possibilities. I'm not implying that whay I respond here to your post Narcosis is the absolute truth, just possibilities.

2. The "copies" or the exsiting letters are in Castilian and have many gramatical errors that experts have shown are due to the fact these are actually translations, of the original letters, made in Barcelona from Catalan to Castillian.
It is assumed they are translations, but if it turns out that they are not then maybe Columbus was from Genova afterall. Its a possibility.

3. The depth, stlye and descriptions are, according to language experts, the style of an upper-class citizen of the time, and not a poor uneducated person as is assumed by a supposed Genovese origin.
Because Columbus kept his childhood literally to himself, never revealing to people where he came from (maybe because of shame), he could had been trying to emulated those who would have made his voyage a reality, the upper classes. Thus, the high class style with grammatical error. Again, another possibility.

4. The names of some of the Caribbean islands Colom gave them have a direct connection to Cataluna and would be unlikely names if he was of Italian origin, names that would not even please the Castilian Kings that financed the trips, if it was not for a strong connection these same names have with the Catholic church instead of just common names linked to a beloved Catalan homeland. names such as Monserrat, Nuestra senora de la Antigua, San Cristobal y Nieves (St. Kitts & Nevis), Las Vigenes, Virgen Gorda (After the 11,000 virgin followers of St. Ursula), etc.

That is true. Columbus also named an island Isla Sabona after Sabona Italy. Today its known as Isla Saona off the coast of Parque del Este here in the DR. This is one of the few places believed he named after an Italian place and that could simply be because he denied his roots in order to be granted his wish of sailing by the monarchs of Spain.

The connection to the church is very accurate. Just look at the cities he founded here in SDQ, San Felipe de Puerto Plata, Santo Domingo de Guzman, La Concepcion de La Vega, etc.

There is also evidence that understandably he showed admiration and gratitude to the monarchs of Spain. The evidence lies in the naming he gave to several places here in the DR: Mount Isabel de Torres, etc.

Again, all of these things are nothing more than possibilities. Only his spirit and God knows what truly happened.