Follow up to the dominican identity: The acknowledgment that there is a problem

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deelt

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I'm not really trying to start yet another discussion on this. But I did want to cut an paste yesterday's article from La Vida section, "Pieles Devaluadas", in the Listin Diario, in case those of you interested in this topic missed it. Make sure to pass it on...

http://www.listindiario.com.do/antes/agosto04/090804/cuerpos/vida/vid1.htm

It's in Spanish. For those who can't read it basically expresses the sentiments of those who are in fact marginalized and shows how this affects them in a very real and cotidian sense. Sonia Pierre, ED of MUDHA, an awesome org doing some good work, speaks in this article...Sad thing is that even when she came to the states she still suffered from the same discrimination at the hands of a US Dominican working in customs.

Some Key Quotes:

1) El estudio realizado este a?o por el soci?logo y antrop?logo, Carlos And?jar, titulado: ??el tema racial en la Rep?blica Dominicana??, plantea que ??en la sociedad dominicana el prejuicio racial, la discriminaci?n y el racismo han permeado la vida p?blica y las actitudes de los individuos en su accionar personal, que en muchos casos, no son conscientemente asumidos, lo que vuelve m?s complicado este enmara?ado y dif?cil tema??.

Translation: the sociologist and anthropologist discusses his study of which his main conclusion is that these issues do exists and are permeated life in such away that they are not even consciously about it. A list of his other conclusions are listed in the article.

2) Ashindi Maxton, del Goldman School of Public Policy, de la Universidad de Berckeley, Estados Unidos...

The dolls study was performed in DR by a student from UC Berkeley. The results verify what I have been saying all along...we need to change the DIALOGUE of how we talk about blackness among Dominicans. For a country so open and so willing to mix it is just plain ironic.

3) existen suficientes evidencias, de que en la educaci?n que se imparte a los ni?os dominicanos, existen elementos racistas.

There are racial elements that are engrained even in the education curriculum.

4) ??Los ni?os confirmaron que la gradaci?n de la pigmentaci?n de la piel va determinando cierto rango discriminatorio en la sociedad dominicana: mientras m?s se oscurece, m?s se acerca a los niveles bajos de la pir?mide ocupacional. Los blancos y de pelo m?s lacio, ascienden a los niveles m?s altos y de rango mayor??, revela el informe.

In another study, there was a categorization of skin tone/hair texture with occupation and yes the expected socio-economic dynamic is seen here that has been discussed ad nauseum.

5) Denial of entry to "exclusive" places on the basis of skin color.
 
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DR_DEFENDER

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I have but one question. I read in the article how they would not allow a couple in to a club because of their skin color but what exactly is the standard? Do you have to be totally black for them not to allow you in or are we talking about fair skin color people as well. I'm just curious. If anyone can answer my question it would be appreciated. Oh and another thing is..has anyone on here ever experienced such discrimination?

DR_DEFENDER (It's been a while).
 
S

stewart

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What I have seen

DR_DEFENDER said:
I have but one question. I read in the article how they would not allow a couple in to a club because of their skin color but what exactly is the standard? Do you have to be totally black for them not to allow you in or are we talking about fair skin color people as well. I'm just curious. If anyone can answer my question it would be appreciated. Oh and another thing is..has anyone on here ever experienced such discrimination?

DR_DEFENDER (It's been a while).
Click to expand...

I am by no means an expert. I am a red headed American. But my wife is a Dominican morena. It seems that everybody (an exagerration of course) tends to discriminate against anybody that they percieve to be daker than they are. People with "pelo malo" try to hide it by straitening it. Then lie about it and make fune of people with "pelo malo". Really dark people are considered to be haitians. And are called blue or purple for their color.
I was floored the first tie I heard a Dominican make a racist comment about somebody a little darker than them. That was 11 years ago. I have heard it so much since then that it has become common place. Among all socio-economic levels of Dominican society.
That's just my 2 cents
 
T

Tordok

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Oct 6, 2003
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deelt said:
I'm not really trying to start yet another discussion on this. But I did want to cut an paste yesterday's article from La Vida section, "Pieles Devaluadas", in the Listin Diario, in case those of you interested in this topic missed it. Make sure to pass it on...

http://www.listindiario.com.do/antes/agosto04/090804/cuerpos/vida/vid1.htm

It's in Spanish. For those who can't read it basically expresses the sentiments of those who are in fact marginalized and shows how this affects them in a very real and cotidian sense. Sonia Pierre, ED of MUDHA, an awesome org doing some good work, speaks in this article...Sad thing is that even when she came to the states she still suffered from the same discrimination at the hands of a US Dominican working in customs.

Some Key Quotes:

1) El estudio realizado este a?o por el soci?logo y antrop?logo, Carlos And?jar, titulado: ??el tema racial en la Rep?blica Dominicana??, plantea que ??en la sociedad dominicana el prejuicio racial, la discriminaci?n y el racismo han permeado la vida p?blica y las actitudes de los individuos en su accionar personal, que en muchos casos, no son conscientemente asumidos, lo que vuelve m?s complicado este enmara?ado y dif?cil tema??.

Translation: the sociologist and anthropologist discusses his study of which his main conclusion is that these issues do exists and are permeated life in such away that they are not even consciously about it. A list of his other conclusions are listed in the article.

2) Ashindi Maxton, del Goldman School of Public Policy, de la Universidad de Berckeley, Estados Unidos...

The dolls study was performed in DR by a student from UC Berkeley. The results verify what I have been saying all along...we need to change the DIALOGUE of how we talk about blackness among Dominicans. For a country so open and so willing to mix it is just plain ironic.

3) existen suficientes evidencias, de que en la educaci?n que se imparte a los ni?os dominicanos, existen elementos racistas.

There are racial elements that are engrained even in the education curriculum.

4) ??Los ni?os confirmaron que la gradaci?n de la pigmentaci?n de la piel va determinando cierto rango discriminatorio en la sociedad dominicana: mientras m?s se oscurece, m?s se acerca a los niveles bajos de la pir?mide ocupacional. Los blancos y de pelo m?s lacio, ascienden a los niveles m?s altos y de rango mayor??, revela el informe.

In another study, there was a categorization of skin tone/hair texture with occupation and yes the expected socio-economic dynamic is seen here that has been discussed ad nauseum.

5) Denial of entry to "exclusive" places on the basis of skin color.
Click to expand...

Thanks Deelt,
not really news, but well articulated description of a persistently archaic discriminatory system. I just would be hesitant to turn it into a political issue, but rather promote appropriate civil values and education.
- Tordok
 
M

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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Tordok,

As usual a very cultured and mature response on your part. Hats off to you! Deelt already knows my stance. I read the article thoroughly three times and yes, there is an immediate need for reform. However, the first step is acknowledgement and awareness. I was overjoyed to see a polemic theme such as racial discrimination in a racially diverse country addressed in a respectful newspaper such as el Listin Diario. Hopefully the process of awareness will continue to be disseminated via el Listin D and other media.

-Lesley D

Tordok said:
Thanks Deelt,
not really news, but well articulated description of a persistently archaic discriminatory system. I just would be hesitant to turn it into a political issue, but rather promote appropriate civil values and education.
- Tordok
Click to expand...
 
D

deelt

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Tordok and Lesley D

Nice to see you again, Tordok. I've been missin' your intelligent posts. Thanks for the fix. :glasses: You are both right, of course.

We are all on the same wavelength here. It should NOT be a political issue. Framing the discussion in terms of civil values and education is on point, but like to get there there must be acknowledgement and awareness from the powers that be (not everyone is needed just those in key positions). The reform of the education curriculum is a great place to start as any. Targeting the new generation provides the highest return on impact.

I don't know about you...but there used to be a time when you went to school and they taught you etiquette and mannerisms, how to act in polite society. Why can't this be something we recapture with a twist? It provides a wider lens to our beauty as Dominicans. Implementing this would also address many of the issues that people have with "Dominicansyorks," by showing people how to act BEFORE they leave the country.
 
Hillbilly

Hillbilly

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Deelt, and DR-DEFENDER

Interesting perspectives and oh so correct.

Defender asked if anyone had directly experienced this discrimination. Well, many many years ago we were "criando"a couple of little girls from Mao, and they went everywhere with us. One day we were in POP/Playa Dorada and we went over to the then named Eurohotel. We just "stroded in", me, Mrs. HB and a whole gaggle of kids, maybe seven or eight. One of the a$$hole guards singles out Ana Iris and stops her and says she can't go in there. I thought my dear wife was going to kill the stupid s.o.b.! Ripped hiim a new one and we never went back there, ever again. Sent a "charming letter" to the management, too.

I thoroughly agree with deelt that etiquette and 'mannerisms' (sic) [It's 'manners'.] should be taught. It used to be called ?ducaci?n Civil" but was dropped from the curriculum some years back. Most adults want to see it back in.

You don't really have to do the doll test: Just open the Social pages or the society magazines that Hoy and the List?n Diario are publishing...One would think this is a very light-skinned country..

HB, sometimes called "rubio"
 
M

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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Deelt,

?Volando alto! Como siempre D- me impresionas.

I agree with you 100% and there is no time like the present but as you stated people in the "key positions" have to initiate the changes and out from those changes we will see reform. I hope I am around to live and witness more racial equality en la RD it's long overdue.

-Lesley D


deelt said:
Nice to see you again, Tordok. I've been missin' your intelligent posts. Thanks for the fix. :glasses: You are both right, of course.

We are all on the same wavelength here. It should NOT be a political issue. Framing the discussion in terms of civil values and education is on point, but like to get there there must be acknowledgement and awareness from the powers that be (not everyone is needed just those in key positions). The reform of the education curriculum is a great place to start as any. Targeting the new generation provides the highest return on impact.

I don't know about you...but there used to be a time when you went to school and they taught you etiquette and mannerisms, how to act in polite society. Why can't this be something we recapture with a twist? It provides a wider lens to our beauty as Dominicans. Implementing this would also address many of the issues that people have with "Dominicansyorks," by showing people how to act BEFORE they leave the country.
Click to expand...
 
I

Indie

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Nov 15, 2002
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deelt, really interesting article. I am passing it on to a few folks...thanks.

DR_DEFENDER said:
I have but one question. I read in the article how they would not allow a couple in to a club because of their skin color but what exactly is the standard? Do you have to be totally black for them not to allow you in or are we talking about fair skin color people as well. I'm just curious. If anyone can answer my question it would be appreciated. Oh and another thing is..has anyone on here ever experienced such discrimination?
Click to expand...
DR_DEFENDER, I'm not sure about the 'standard(s)', but I've seen racial discrimination openly practiced in some places:

-One night in Santo Domingo a few years ago I went out with some friends, a black couple, to El Metro Club. They wanted merengue. I didn't care, so while we waited in the car, my friend's boyfriend went to see what type of "night" it was (in relation to the type of music they were playing - - you also had to go down the stairs as the entrance was "underground"), and he was denied entry to the place, because they were having a 'private party' according to the doorman. My friend's boyfriend bought it. I was appalled. But I didn't have the heart to tell them I had called the club about an hour earlier to ask about the details (club's exact location, cover charge, etc.), and was told "yes, we're open 'til..." by whomever answered the phone that night. They never said anything about a 'private party' to me.

-Another night in Sans Souci as my date and I were walking up the stairs to the restaurant/bar/club's entrance, we overheard the doorman turn two young guys away, alleging that the place was full and that they had no more tables. The guys, dark in color but not very dark, accepted it, turned around and walked down the stairs. Upon hearing this my date, a white man, started to do the same when the doorman, smiling from ear to ear, stopped him and told us, "Uds. dos pueden entrar, vengan." Needless to say, they had more than enough tables and the place was full, but it wasn't packed. I remember my date giving me that "you-know-how-it-is" look.

-A friend of mine, light-skinned, told me about the time he went to Bella Blue, a former club on the Malecon, with a couple of his friends and the doorman stopped and told the really dark one, incredibly, loudly and with an attitude, "El negro no puede entrar". They all left.

That's all I've personally witnessed and heard, but sadly and unfortunately, I'm sure there are many more stories like these in the DR.

-Indie
 
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NALs

NALs

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Most of the discrimination can be said to be because of Socio-economics standing rather than actual skin color.

Since the poorest of the poor are very dark in skin color, its only natural to assume that any really dark skin person would be poor and what wealthy person wants to be seen near a "riff raff".

Notice how most of the examples given here about discrimination takes place in places where upper class/ middle class Dominicans hang out. In the much more humble locations, such action is almost non-existent.

Ever tried going into a club in the Hamptons in NY? If you don't have "the looks" and "the money" or seem well off, you are not going in! This is evident around the world.
 
X

xamaicano

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Nal0whs said:
Most of the discrimination can be said to be because of Socio-economics standing rather than actual skin color.

Since the poorest of the poor are very dark in skin color, its only natural to assume that any really dark skin person would be poor and what wealthy person wants to be seen near a "riff raff".

Notice how most of the examples given here about discrimination takes place in places where upper class/ middle class Dominicans hang out. In the much more humble locations, such action is almost non-existent.

Ever tried going into a club in the Hamptons in NY? If you don't have "the looks" and "the money" or seem well off, you are not going in! This is evident around the world.
Click to expand...

Dude, you are hilarious. :laugh:
 
M

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
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Una broma de mal gusto

Nals,

I read your comment several times before responding and once again I am lost. But not due to misdirection but rather disbelief. Your second line is the most ludicrous comment I have read in a long time, are you really serious? Just playing on the second line alone don't you think if the really dark skinned people are poor it is because they are victims of the racism that persist in the society which they live? As well, your comment is two fold: 1) yes, they may be poor because they are dark which is a reflection the DR's racial problem as stated in the article please note the title "pieles devaluadas" and 2) this racism reflects back on you to ASSUME that since they are dark they are poor which very well may not be the case.

Nals,

Como ya te dije, qu?tate la venda que est? tapando tus ojos. Ahora es cuando tratas de entender la ra?z del problema en vez de cubrirlo.

-Lesley D




Nal0whs said:
Most of the discrimination can be said to be because of Socio-economics standing rather than actual skin color.

Since the poorest of the poor are very dark in skin color, its only natural to assume that any really dark skin person would be poor and what wealthy person wants to be seen near a "riff raff".

Notice how most of the examples given here about discrimination takes place in places where upper class/ middle class Dominicans hang out. In the much more humble locations, such action is almost non-existent.

Ever tried going into a club in the Hamptons in NY? If you don't have "the looks" and "the money" or seem well off, you are not going in! This is evident around the world.
Click to expand...
 
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I

Indie

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xamaicano said:
What a difference a thread makes.
Click to expand...
In the previous "Identity" thread, the theme was more about (the need for) celebrating our African ancestry. In this thread we are discussing the article, aknowledging the fact that there is an inherent racial discrimination problem in the DR, and citing examples, so I'll venture to say that yes, there is a difference in threads. I'm curious though, xamaicano...why do you say that?

Nal0whs, I see you automatically equate being black with being poor. You probably equate being white with being wealthy too. Most likely, you think being white guarantees you intelligence as well. Hitler and Trujillo, can you hear me?
Since the poorest of the poor are very dark in skin color, its only natural to assume that any really dark skin person would be poor and what wealthy person wants to be seen near a "riff raff".
Click to expand...
This statement has got to be the most judgemental, blatantly racist, stupidest and next to the most abominally ignorant thing I've read here thus far. I could go on and on, but it really isn't worth the bytes.

First of all, the black people in the examples I mentioned were NOT poor. I don't know or care about the economic status of the two guys who were turned away from the place in Sans Souci, but I can tell you they looked presentable. Secondly, we are NOT talking specifically about locations here - whether they be 'upper', 'lower', or 'middle-class' hangouts. We're talking about all types of downright racism still prevalent in my country today. I PERSONALLY have not witnessed such racial discrimination anywhere else in the world, by the way, not even in the United States. And for you to even suggest that such behavior is totally understandable in the DR on this "Dominican Identity" thread is insulting as it is outrageous.

Change your mindset, dude -- you're embarrassing. You really should get out more, and read a book or two every eclipse.

-Indie
 
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NALs

NALs

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Nal0whs, I see you automatically equate being black with being poor. You probably equate being white with being wealthy too. Most likely, you think being white guarantees you intelligence as well. Hitler and Trujillo, can you hear me? This statement has got to be the most judgemental, blatantly racist, stupidest and next to the most abominally ignorant thing I've read here thus far. I could go on and on, but it really isn't worth the bytes.
Click to expand...
Its not that I equate such thing, that is the perception based on what I see. I know there are white Dominicans that are poor, but have you been to the slums? Now, have you been to the upper class neighborhoods? Notice the difference in skin color. Even within the slums, the darkest and the Haitians live in the most meager dwellings.

BTW, there are some pretty dark folks that live in my neighborhood and they drive Mercedes and have beautiful big houses. I am speaking in general terms, not me personally.

I can tell what economic position a person is more by their speach pattern than by their skin color, but OTHERS just based their perception by their skin color. I am speaking in a general terms here, not me personally.

And for you to even suggest that such behavior is totally understandable in the DR on this "Dominican Identity" thread is insulting as it is outrageous.
Click to expand...
Never assume anything. Always accept things as they are shown to you. My purpose in my response was to make people realize that it is understandable. Being understandable doesn't mean its right, it just mean that YOU UNDERSTAND WHY SUCH THING HAPPENS!

Change your mindset, dude -- you're embarrassing. You really should get out more, and read a book or two every eclipse.
Click to expand...
Good tip, you should follow it. Also, don't assume anything, just accept things as they are presented to you. I mean, how many times have you said something in your life and others have accepted in a way you did not intended to.

Also, people attract people with the same personality and mentality. Since you seem to be attracted to most of my responses, that means that by your definition, you are yourself an embarrasement. Not my words or intentions, just a simple fact about human nature. People are attracted to folks that think and live alike.

Hopefully next time, you would just let me post my opinion and things and you post your opinion on things, not your opinion of my opinion. I don't post my ideas so that others can try to discredit me. I simply post my opinion because that is what people do in threads like these. However, if you want to have a discussion with me about my way of thinking, I am more than happy in creating a thread for that purpose.

Thank You.
 
NALs

NALs

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I read your comment several times before responding and once again I am lost. But not due to misdirection but rather disbelief. Your second line is the most ludicrous comment I have read in a long time, are you really serious? Just playing on the second line alone don't you think if the really dark skinned people are poor it is because they are victims of the racism that persist in the society which they live? As well, your comment is two fold: 1) yes, they may be poor because they are dark which is a reflection the DR's racial problem as stated in the article please note the title "pieles devaluadas" and 2) this racism reflects back on you to ASSUME that since they are dark they are poor which very well may not be the case.
Click to expand...
Lesley D]

Um, I don't really think that racism has much of an effect on a dark skin person's ability to move up the economic latter. Other wise, how can you explain the dark skin folks that are in high positions here in the DR?

However, your desire to succeed will show through your acheivements. Here in the DR and education and connections are essentials to move ahead in most aspects of life, but not all. If a person (black, white, whatever) truly wants to make it in life here in the DR, they will have to gain those two attributes. Period.

Most people in low positions tend to dream of living in NY or something and never really dream of furthering themselves here in the DR. They think of baseball, of going in a yola to Puerto Rico, or on going with a fake visa to NY and live happily ever after "over there". If they truly wanted to succeed here in the DR, they would. Again, if they truly wanted they could. All people need is connections and some education (in any order, for lower classes its better to get connections before further education, for obvious reason). But if they truly wanted, they would achieve their object. Anything that the mind of man can conceive, it can achieve. That is a fact of human nature.

Now, does whatever racism that exist have some effect on dark skin people in the DR? It could have, but then again once you got connections your barriers crumble like the Berlin wall. If they truly wanted, they could make. If they barely want it, they won't make, and if they want something for nothing, they would opt going to NY or PR rather than doing something to improve their life here. Afterall, the perception of most lower class Dominicans is that life in NY or PR is much easier because their is so much money. That is an ignorant generalization of what life is in those places by the Dominican masses, simply because they feel they can get something for nothing in those respective places. Of course, once they make the journey there, they realize that its all work and desire to achieve their goals, just like back at home.


Nals,

Como ya te dije, qu?tate la venda que est? tapando tus ojos. Ahora es cuando tratas de entender la ra?z del problema en vez de cubrirlo.
Click to expand...

I really like discussing with you because you are always very respectful, however I have never told you or anyone else how to think, so please don't tell me how to live my life. I am just expressing my opinion on the subject, not on our or anyone else's way of thinking or way of life. Thank You.
 
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P

Pib

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Behind Nal0whs's bad wording there is truth. I commented on the same thing on the other thread. But since I am too lazy to copy and paste I guess you will be left with the burden of looking it up for yourselves.

BTW, why a second thread on the same?
 
M

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
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Pib,

This thread was created based on the article published in El Listin Diario on August 9, 2004. It is a follow up to the previous discussion however, this one with a focus on discrimination as detailed in the article. The link is available in the first post.



Pib said:
Behind Nal0whs's bad wording there is truth. I commented on the same thing on the other thread. But since I am too lazy to copy and paste I guess you will be left with the burden of looking it up for yourselves.

BTW, why a second thread on the same?
Click to expand...
 
D

deelt

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Lesley D

You know I do love the bible. I find it has a little bit of everything we need for daily living. It's nice to find solance in this at times...here is a passage that I have had to go to when confronted with certain types of people:

Proverbs 9:7-9 (Written by the very wise man, Solomon)
"Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult; whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse. Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you. Instruct a wise man and he will be wiser still; teach a righteous man and he will add to his learning."

Girl, let it go. Somethings can't be changed.
D
 
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