MY SOURCES FOR MY DATA and an Interesting link

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,368
3,150
113
Here is something to think about

The Cibao has always been the major center of human activities on the isand. It was the center of Taino Civilization and it was also the center of European civilization. This is evident in the development patterns of the three major regions of the country.

The Cibao was where the bulk of the population of the country lived, most being of european decent, mostly from Spain. There were natives and blacks in the mix, but most were whites from the Iberian peninsula. The blacks that were imported were brought from Spain, who were slaves already in Spain. Aas a result, these blacks were already "hispanizised". Its no coincidence that the Cibao has most of the oldest settlements and towns in the country.

The East was developed later, mostly in the 1800s, with its major towns developing and growing in the early 1900s, due to the sugar boom. The east consisted of whites (who were a minority in this part of the island) and blacks imported from the British West Indies. These blacks had more of an Africanize culture because the British imported the blacks directly from Africa, contrary to how Spain imported most of its blacks through the mainland. As a results, the cocolos came with their heavily africanized culture which have an impact on that region.

The South developed around the sametime the Cibao developed, but it never really grew much due to its vulnerability of being ransacked everytime Haitian forces invaded, which were quite often. In fact, the south could be said to have the most Haitian influence, such influence is evident in the founding of Barahona which was founded by the Haitians.

How does all of that influence speech patterns in the DR?

Well, given that the South never fully developed properly and the East developed very recently, its almost natural to not expect much in terms of a unified sub-culture in those regions. In the contrary, the Cibao not only developed extremely early, but remain very Europeanized with whites making up most of the population in that region. Most whites left after the 22 year Haitian occupation of the island, but their legacy has remained.

As a result, the Cibao contains a sub-culture that is very europeanized and that culture is the culture being used to define as Dominican culture. The reason falls in that about three quarters of Dominicans live in the Cibao to this day. The huge european presence in the Cibao is also the reason why the Cibao population tends to be whiter or lighter than the rest and the reason why the region actually has a provincial Spain feel to it. That becomes very evident in the habits of the people in the region, which go hand in hand with Hispanic traditions.

Add to that the ethno-centric reality of cultures that developed on islands, and you got a sub-culture that still retains many elements of Spain, elements that have eroded in much of Spain in modern times, but remain intact and alive in the Cibao till this day.

Please keep in mind that there have also been some Haitian (ie. African) influence in the Cibao all this time with the constant migration. The last 10 years have seen the largest influx of Haitians into Dominican territory since their last invasion and as a result, their presence is causing deep feelings to come to light again. But, it cannot be denied that the African influence by way of Haiti has been felt in the country also.

It is important to note that because the Africans brought by the Spaniards most were slaves in Spain prior to being brought to the island, they had already a hispanic culture among themselves. Much of the African elements in the country have come through Haiti and the blacks who came from the Lesser Antilles and settled in the East and also, to some extent, the African-Americans that settled in Samana.

Another interesting fact is the survival of many Taino words and speech patterns in the Dominican Spanish (which is the Spanish spoken in the Cibao). This brings further evidence that the Tainos were either not completely annihilated as thought, or they were not killed as fast as thought. Otherwise, its a mistery why so much "Tainoism" has found its way into the European component of this society, most noticeable in the speech patterns of Dominicans.

The following link is a good article about the influences of Taino into the Speech patterns not only of the Dominican Republic, but of the entire Spanish Caribbean. I have posted this article numerous times in other threads, so if you have read it, I'm sorry for posting it again. But it brings some interesting insights into the legacy of the Tainos into the speech patterns of the Spanish Caribbean.
http://www.centrelink.org/davidcampos.html
 
Last edited:

Pib

Goddess
Jan 1, 2002
3,668
20
38
www.dominicancooking.com
Would you please provide cites, references and sources for the following assertions?
Nal0whs said:
...it was also the center of European civilization.
most being of european decent, mostly from Spain... most were whites from the Iberian peninsula.
The blacks that were imported were brought from Spain
the British imported the blacks directly from Africa, contrary to how Spain imported most of its blacks through the mainland.
Barahona which was founded by the Haitians.
Most whites left after the 22 year Haitian occupation
African influence by way of Haiti has been felt in the country also.

If you do, please do so in another thread.
 
Last edited:
Apr 26, 2002
1,806
10
0
Pib said:
Would you please provide cites, references and sources for the following assertions
Pib,

Please let me note that the founding of Barhona has always been somewhat of a mystery to me. Various sources say that it was founded on orders of the Haitian General Toussaint L'Overture. E.g.: http://www.provinciasdominicanas.or...ge&PHPSESSID=dada18bda2120f97a81d4110cb8a4fa8. However, other accounts of Barahona's early history note that it was originally settled by Dominican woodcutters.

It seems very unlikely to me that the City was named "Santa Cruz de Barahona" by the Haitians - Barahona being a Spanish surname (even though most of the people I know in Barahona swear that "Barahona" is a Taino word and no amount of references to the Spanish surname "Barahona" will change their thinking). Yet I can find no reference to the original Haitian name for the place, if any and if not "Barahona", nor can I find any reference to a name change.

Perhaps it originally was a Taino name of similar sound and was then altered in spelling to the known Spanish word "Barahona".

In any case, Nalowh's reference that Barahona (once the de facto capital of the DR) and the South are somehow less Dominican than the Cibao are greatly resented. Heck, Surenos actually speak Spanish - not that grinding sound that they speak in the Cibao that even makes Boricuas cringe when they hear it. And I think I speak for Maria Montez, Buenaventura Baez, Kinito Mendez, Casandra Damiron and other Surenos when I say so.
 
Last edited:

Mirador

On Permanent Vacation!
Apr 15, 2004
3,563
0
0
I read somewhere that 'barahona' is chibcha

"That summer Bartolom? Colon collected 300 "prisoners" and sent them back with Ni?o's fleet, while they built Santo Domingo on the south coast of Espa?ola. Bartolom? visited Behechio in Jaragua and allowed him to pay tribute in cotton, cassava, and hemp, because the region had no gold. Meanwhile alcalde mayor (chief magistrate) Francisco Roldan was leading the hungry, lusty, and greedy in a rebellion, because food had not arrived, they were not allowed to take native women, and they wanted to seek gold. They plotted to assassinate the adelantado Bartolom? Colon when he was going to hang their friend BARAHONA;..."

http://www.san.beck.org/AC5-AmericaConquerors.html
 

Chirimoya

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2002
17,850
982
113
Pib said:
Would you please provide cites, references and sources for the following assertions?

If you do, please do so in another thread.

Pib, you won't get cites from Nals. I am still waiting for the one I asked for about his claim that 90% of slum dwellers in the DR are Haitians. I mean :rolleyes:.

Nevertheless, this sort of thesis provides a fascinating case study in some Dominicans' self-delusion and denial about their origins and their relationship with Haiti.
 
Apr 26, 2002
1,806
10
0
Mirador said:
I read somewhere that 'barahona' is chibcha
Interesting reference, Mirador. Do you think that the referenced "Barahona" was Spaniard or Taino? It's difficult to tell from the jumpy syntax of the passage. Also, what's "chibcha"?
 
Last edited:

Mirador

On Permanent Vacation!
Apr 15, 2004
3,563
0
0
"Chibcha (chb?ch) (KEY) , indigenous people of the eastern cordillera of the Andes of Colombia. Although trade with neighboring tribes was common, the Chibcha seem to have evolved their culture in comparative isolation. They were the most highly developed of the Colombians, practicing agriculture, melting and casting gold and copper ornaments, mining emeralds, weaving textiles, and making pottery. They evolved a stratified society of overlords and vassals, in which succession to office was matrilineal and inheritance of personal property was patrilineal. Among the commoners, or farmers, organization was patrilineal. The priesthood constituted a hereditary noble class. Religious ceremonies included human sacrifice. The source of the legend of El Dorado is attributed to them, probably because of a Chibcha ceremony, also partly legendary, in which a new ruler was covered with gold dust each year, and then washed in a sacred lake. The Chibcha were conquered by the Spanish conquistador Gonzalo Jim?nez de Quesada between 1536 and 1541. The Chibcha languages, a separate language family, are spoken in Colombia and spread northward to other areas. Surviving Chibcha-speaking tribes, such as the Cuna and Lenca of Central America, have experienced much culture change since the Spanish conquest."

http://www.bartleby.com/65/ch/Chibcha.html
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,368
3,150
113
The following link is very interesting. It brings to light why Haiti and the DR are so disparate considering their similarities.

http://www.intervision2000.com/iv2-dcforum/relations-internationales/9.html

Also, here are MY SOURCES for anything Dominican. Here are only a sampling of the sources where I get my data from. Some data I get are purely confidential, so of course, you will not receive the source of that, but everything else is up for grab.

Also, notice that many of the sources I point here are actual books, not something you can just search up on the net.

This was done in response to the increasing demands of other DR1ers to verify what I post. I hope this helps them understand better what I am saying, my ideology in this, and hopefully, they will stop questioning with so much suspicion everything I say or post. Have fun!

Italize means title, non italize is the author's name

The Unfinished Experiment: Democracy in the Dominican Republic Juan Bosch

The Devastation of the Indies Bartolome de Las Casas

Rag-Tags, Scum, Riff-Raff and Commies Eric Thomas Chester

Trujillo:The Death of the Goat Barbara Diederich

Santo Domingo Past & Present with a Glance at Hayti Samuel Hazard

The Tainos: The People Who Welcomed Columbus Francine Jacobs

Pillaging the Empire Kris E. Lane

The Dominican Intervention Abraham F. Lowenthal

Almost a Territory W.J. Nelson

The Dominican Republic: A National History Frank Moya Pons

Dictator Next Door: The Good Neighbor Policy and the Trujillo Regime, 1930-1945 Eric Paul Roorda

The Conquest of Paradise Kirkpatrick Sale

The Slave Trade Hugh Thomas

The Dominican Republic: A Caribbean Crucible Howard Wiarda & M.J. Kryzanek

Over Ramon Aristy

Antologia Personal Juan Bosch

Don Quixote in Exile Peter Furst

The Cross and the Sword Manuel Jesus de Galvan & Robert Garves

La Isla al Reves: Haiti y el Destino Dominicano Joaquin Balaguer

Peasants and Tobacco in the Dominican Republic, 1870-1930 Michiel Baud

Beyond the Lighthouse James Ferguson

The Making of a Transnational Community: Migration, Development and Cultural Change in the Dominican Republic Eugenia Georges

Developing Poverty Jose Itzigsohn

Peripheral Migrants: Haitians and Dominican Republic Sugar Plantations Samuel Martinez

Merengue: Dominicana Music and Dominican Identity Paul Austerliz

Tainos: Pre-Columbian Art and Culture from the Caribbean Fatima Bercht & Estrellita Brodsky

Bachata: A Social History of Dominican Popular Music Deborah Pacini Hernandez

500 Anos de Historia Monumental Marcio Veloz Maggiolo & Adriano Tejada

Colonial Houses of Santo Domingo Eugenio Parez Montas

Caribbean Art Veerle Poupeye

Modern and Contemporary Art of the Dominican Republic Suzanne Stratton

Flowering Trees of teh Dominican Republic; National Parks of the Dominican Republic Jurgen Hoppe

Hacia el Techo del Caribe: Caminatas al Pico Duarte Renato Perez & Andreas Schubert

The Dominican People 1850-1900: Notes for a Historical Sociology H. Hoetink

Overtaken by Events: The Dominican Crisis from the Fall of Trujillo to the Civil War John B. Martin

Politics, Foreign Trade, and Economic Development: A study of the Dominican Republic Caludio Vedovato

The Caribbean as Columbus Saw It Samuel E. Morrison

Aves de la Republica Dominicana Annabelle Stockton de Dod

Last Resorts, The Cost of Tourism in the Caribbean Polly Pattullo
 

BushBaby

Silver
Jan 1, 2002
3,829
329
0
79
www.casabush.org
Ahhhhhhh, Now I understand!!!

The Highrises in Puerto Plata are NOT for people to live in, they are to be a warehouse for all your books!!!! Why didn't you say so first off?? I'll go talk to the Mayor & Govenor this afternoon!!! ~ Grahame.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,368
3,150
113
BushBaby said:
Ahhhhhhh, Now I understand!!!

The Highrises in Puerto Plata are NOT for people to live in, they are to be a warehouse for all your books!!!! Why didn't you say so first off?? I'll go talk to the Mayor & Govenor this afternoon!!! ~ Grahame.
Very funny, very funny...

First I get criticized for not revealing my sources, then when I do, I get criticized for revealing them...

what is this world coming too....!!!! :laugh:
 

BushBaby

Silver
Jan 1, 2002
3,829
329
0
79
www.casabush.org
That was not criticism Old Man, that was pure, unadulterated humour!! A Jest, Joke, light banter between friends. Please do not get you nickers in a twist over that lightheartedness - life is MUCH too short for that!! ~ Grahame.
 

ogro

New member
Oct 2, 2004
10
0
0
The colony's population

According to Frank Moya Pons( which I don't consider to be a biased historian), by 1700, Whites were the minority in the whole island, even the Cibao. Many Mulattoes and even Blacks held high position in the colonial administration due to the lack of Whites to fill them, something unthinkable in the English colonies on the North American Mainland. The reason was that the Spanish Empire was so vast, that there weren't many whites around to administer everything. " el que abarca mucho, aprieta poco". Also, by 1600, the colony of Santo Domingo was already in decline and neglected by Spain. Spanish settlers were just going where they could find gold and get rich quick. Other parts of the Empire like Mexico and Peru.

Moya Pons does mention about some " Ladinos"(Iberian black slaves), but is not like " all of them where ladinos". More than 50% came straight from Africa, many bought from the Portuguese. The first Africans that arrived in SD were reportely Mandingos bought from the Portuguese. How then can you explain the " Congos of Villa Mella" then? Also, there were some fugitive slaves that went there from neighboring Saint Domingue, ones where the Minas tribe, they reportely settled in what is now " Los Minas"in Santo Domingo, after their name. The belief that " everything black in D.R is Haitian influence" is just anti-haitian propaganda crap created by the anti-africanists and negrophobics. Dominicans have a much longer African history and tradition than the Haitians, hell, Saint Domingue(today's Haiti) didn't even existed !!
 

Chirimoya

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2002
17,850
982
113
Nal0whs said:
The Unfinished Experiment: Democracy in the Dominican Republic Juan Bosch

The Devastation of the Indies Bartolome de Las Casas

Rag-Tags, Scum, Riff-Raff and Commies Eric Thomas Chester

Santo Domingo Past & Present with a Glance at Hayti Samuel Hazard

The Tainos: The People Who Welcomed Columbus Francine Jacobs

Pillaging the Empire Kris E. Lane

The Dominican Intervention Abraham F. Lowenthal

Almost a Territory W.J. Nelson

Dictator Next Door: The Good Neighbor Policy and the Trujillo Regime, 1930-1945 Eric Paul Roorda

The Conquest of Paradise Kirkpatrick Sale

The Slave Trade Hugh Thomas

The Dominican Republic: A Caribbean Crucible Howard Wiarda & M.J. Kryzanek

Over Ramon Aristy

Antologia Personal Juan Bosch

Don Quixote in Exile Peter Furst

The Cross and the Sword Manuel Jesus de Galvan & Robert Garves

La Isla al Reves: Haiti y el Destino Dominicano Joaquin Balaguer

Peasants and Tobacco in the Dominican Republic, 1870-1930 Michiel Baud

The Making of a Transnational Community: Migration, Development and Cultural Change in the Dominican Republic Eugenia Georges

Developing Poverty Jose Itzigsohn

Peripheral Migrants: Haitians and Dominican Republic Sugar Plantations Samuel Martinez

Merengue: Dominicana Music and Dominican Identity Paul Austerliz

Tainos: Pre-Columbian Art and Culture from the Caribbean Fatima Bercht & Estrellita Brodsky

Bachata: A Social History of Dominican Popular Music Deborah Pacini Hernandez

500 Anos de Historia Monumental Marcio Veloz Maggiolo & Adriano Tejada

Colonial Houses of Santo Domingo Eugenio Parez Montas

Caribbean Art Veerle Poupeye

Modern and Contemporary Art of the Dominican Republic Suzanne Stratton

Flowering Trees of teh Dominican Republic; National Parks of the Dominican Republic Jurgen Hoppe

Hacia el Techo del Caribe: Caminatas al Pico Duarte Renato Perez & Andreas Schubert

The Dominican People 1850-1900: Notes for a Historical Sociology H. Hoetink

Overtaken by Events: The Dominican Crisis from the Fall of Trujillo to the Civil War John B. Martin

Politics, Foreign Trade, and Economic Development: A study of the Dominican Republic Caludio Vedovato

The Caribbean as Columbus Saw It Samuel E. Morrison

Aves de la Republica Dominicana Annabelle Stockton de Dod

Nal, thanks for posting this list but we were asking for specific cites to qualify some of your assertions, not a bibliography. Anyone could produce an impressive-looking list of DR-related books and say 'it's in there, somewhere', banking on the odds that no-one will have read them all. I have taken out the few I have read in-depth because I know for a fact that the claims that are being questioned are not in there.

I once again ask where it says that '90% of slum dwellers in the DR are Haitian' as you have stated on several occasions.

Ditto for the list of requests made by Pib in the newly-split thread.

And BTW, Trujillo:The Death of the Goat is by Bernard, not Barbara, Diederich.
 

Ursulita

New member
Feb 20, 2003
23
0
0
Amen To That !

ogro said:
According to Frank Moya Pons( which I don't consider to be a biased historian), by 1700, Whites were the minority in the whole island, even the Cibao. Many Mulattoes and even Blacks held high position in the colonial administration due to the lack of Whites to fill them, something unthinkable in the English colonies on the North American Mainland. The reason was that the Spanish Empire was so vast, that there weren't many whites around to administer everything. " el que abarca mucho, aprieta poco". Also, by 1600, the colony of Santo Domingo was already in decline and neglected by Spain. Spanish settlers were just going where they could find gold and get rich quick. Other parts of the Empire like Mexico and Peru.

Moya Pons does mention about some " Ladinos"(Iberian black slaves), but is not like " all of them where ladinos". More than 50% came straight from Africa, many bought from the Portuguese. The first Africans that arrived in SD were reportely Mandingos bought from the Portuguese. How then can you explain the " Congos of Villa Mella" then? Also, there were some fugitive slaves that went there from neighboring Saint Domingue, ones where the Minas tribe, they reportely settled in what is now " Los Minas"in Santo Domingo, after their name. The belief that " everything black in D.R is Haitian influence" is just anti-haitian propaganda crap created by the anti-africanists and negrophobics. Dominicans have a much longer African history and tradition than the Haitians, hell, Saint Domingue(today's Haiti) didn't even existed !!


Even thought I don't come often in the board, I always keep reading. I think that by my emails peoples can read that I am anti-racismo and very proud of my African background (which gave this perfect a... and these juicy lips) as well of all my other backgrounds.

The subject is not about our ethnic backgrounds but I just want to say that Ogro said it right, it's about time many of us stop being ashamed of this African blood running threw our veins and this African influence in our cultures (I am Boricua), withouth it we would have never being able to dance that merengue de manera tan loca! :laugh:

Africans were brought all over America (except some little parts- which are surely not the Caribbeans!) and we have to stop the madness saying that "No, this..., no that, Haitianos blablabla and not in SD or PR blablabla".

It is written in all history books because it's a fact. Punto.

Now let's learn how to live with it and to discover this part of our blood, that we are so ashame of.

I've made it already... And it made me even more proud of my island.

I am finish! Finish! Finish! To the fanatics anti-Haitianos, anti-Negroes, anti-Morenos, Anti-whatever you want..Pleeaassee no me maten for what I just said por favoorrr ;)
 
Last edited:

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
766
113
A question for you

Ogro,

Since you mentioned Frank Moya Pons I was wondering what book of his did you read? I read El Pasado Dominicano and I think it is solid, detailed and is certainly an interesting overview that covers key historical events that make up the Dominican Republic's interesting history although not nearly as extensive as it can be. Every now and then I read over certain chapters just to refresh my knowledge and I agree with you he is unbiased in his approach (at least that is my perception). The version I have was published in 1986. I would like to read a newer edition. Especially the last few chapters that are dedicated to the future, which has definitely come and gone. I just thought you can give some insight.

I enjoyed the last three lines of your post. It will spark some controversy for sure but stand your ground. That statement had impact and the terminology you used: "anti-africanists" and "negrophobics" are most appropriate to describe some beliefs and sentiments that have been inculcated in the minds of many and are still very deeply rooted today.

-Lesley D


ogro said:
According to Frank Moya Pons( which I don't consider to be a biased historian), by 1700, Whites were the minority in the whole island, even the Cibao. Many Mulattoes and even Blacks held high position in the colonial administration due to the lack of Whites to fill them, something unthinkable in the English colonies on the North American Mainland. The reason was that the Spanish Empire was so vast, that there weren't many whites around to administer everything. " el que abarca mucho, aprieta poco". Also, by 1600, the colony of Santo Domingo was already in decline and neglected by Spain. Spanish settlers were just going where they could find gold and get rich quick. Other parts of the Empire like Mexico and Peru.

Moya Pons does mention about some " Ladinos"(Iberian black slaves), but is not like " all of them where ladinos". More than 50% came straight from Africa, many bought from the Portuguese. The first Africans that arrived in SD were reportely Mandingos bought from the Portuguese. How then can you explain the " Congos of Villa Mella" then? Also, there were some fugitive slaves that went there from neighboring Saint Domingue, ones where the Minas tribe, they reportely settled in what is now " Los Minas"in Santo Domingo, after their name. The belief that " everything black in D.R is Haitian influence" is just anti-haitian propaganda crap created by the anti-africanists and negrophobics. Dominicans have a much longer African history and tradition than the Haitians, hell, Saint Domingue(today's Haiti) didn't even existed !!
 
Apr 26, 2002
1,806
10
0
Racist rantings

Well, NawOhws does have some Balguer stuff in his list, so he probably does have a legitimate source for racist rantings. I said "racist rantings", not statistics or facts or anything else useful. There's a difference.

And please, NawOhws, please tell those poor, stateless, uncultured Barahoneros and other surenos exactly where in "Colonial Houses of Santo Domingo" by Eugenio Parez Montas it mentions how El Sur is not "Dominican". Better yet, tell us where in "Colonial Houses of Santo Domingo" by Eugenio Parez Montas it says anything that you wrote ... anything at all.
 

Kaizen68

New member
Aug 25, 2004
165
0
0
ex cbs intern...

Chirimoya said:
Nal, thanks for posting this list but we were asking for specific cites to qualify some of your assertions, not a bibliography. Anyone could produce an impressive-looking list of DR-related books and say 'it's in there, somewhere', banking on the odds that no-one will have read them all. I have taken out the few I have read in-depth because I know for a fact that the claims that are being questioned are not in there.

I once again ask where it says that '90% of slum dwellers in the DR are Haitian' as you have stated on several occasions.

Ditto for the list of requests made by Pib in the newly-split thread.

And BTW, Trujillo:The Death of the Goat is by Bernard, not Barbara, Diederich.
Nal, you must've worked for Dan Rather till recently...
your fact finding abilities, are just that... boberia.

c-ya..!
 

ogro

New member
Oct 2, 2004
10
0
0
Moya's history

Lesley:


I read his book in English " Dominican Republic:a National history". I also have Ernesto Saga's " Race and Politics in the Dominican Republic". The last books should be title " Anti-haitianismo in D.R" instead, because that's what he keeps repeating all the time. There are more books that are more " in depth" about colonial Santo Domingo, you can find those in the bibliography of " D.R:A national history" by Moya Pons. One is " slavery in colonial Santo Domingo". Again, unfortunately, we can't get those books outside of Quisqueya. You'll have to go there to get those. Afro-Dominican history has been preserved thanks to unbiased anthropologist like Fradique Lizardo, and efforts of people like Jose Duluc( He is in Japan now), I think without them, the Eurocentrics, anti-africanists were going to win the battle of brainwashing the Dominican masses with their racist views.
 

FuegoAzul21

New member
Jun 28, 2004
217
0
0
I dont really think dominicans deny thier african roots , i just think they just like to remind poeple that they are of other ancestry as well and that is not taken well by extranjeros .they cannot stand that we , having an african component ,like to acknowledge our other componants as well and if the outsiders knew more about us and about our history they would understand why the dominican poeple feel the way they do.