A very long post on educating the children

Rick Snyder · Oct 26, 2004

In a lot of these posts the words (bettering the education in the DR) keep popping up and the remedies usually are way overboard and/or cost a lot of money. You can build all the new schools you want, supply the children with supplies, food and what ever else you want but if you continue to teach as they are presently teaching then you will still have uneducated children. I do not think any of you have seriously checked out the curriculum that if used in the pre and elementary schools, both public and private, here in the DR. In previous posts I have suggested to all of you DR1 members to go out into your communities and ask the children between the ages 8 to 18 how many letters are in the Spanish alphabet and if they can recite those letters. If you were to do this then maybe you would understand where the education system needs to start in bettering the education of the future leaders of this fine country. In the last two years I have asked 4,089 children the two above mentioned questions, remember 8 to 18, and 93% do not know that there are 29 letters in the alphabet and 93.7% can not recite the letters that they know. I know for a fact that the school system is not teaching the most important basics for good learning.
Of the schools that I have investigated and of the children that I have asked I have learned that they use the book Nacho 1 in the pre and elementary schools. Have you read this book? There is no mention as to what an alphabet is, how many letters it contains and the order that those letters are placed. Also, the schools here omit the letters che (ch) and elle (ll) in their teachings and I have no idea as to why that is. In the second grade they begin to teach what the alphabet is but with 27 letters instead of the 29 that have existed since the year 1803. With this in mind look at the book Nacho 2 on page 7 and you will see that they finally begin to teach what an alphabet is, how many letters it contains and their order, but, they only teach 28 letters and fail to teach the letter (w). Thankfully they finally teach the letters che and elle. Unlike in the USA the schools here teach the Christian religion and if you think about how the Christian religion deplores falsehoods and lies it seems strange that they teach that the alphabet has less then 29 letters.
One of the great things about the Spanish language is that if you learn all of the letters of the alphabet and the pronunciation of those letters you will be able to correctly spell any Spanish word if it is pronounced correctly. The vowels never change in their pronunciation, unlike in the English language, and their consonants have very basic and easy rules in their pronunciation. Because of the phonetic simplicity of the Spanish language I can not phantom as to why they do not teach the alphabet at an early age therefore giving the children a good, basic and solid foundation to expand from.
I sent a letter to the president and the secretary of education of the past administration concerning teaching the basics to the children at an early age and received a couple of the stupidest responses from supposedly educated people. Below is a copy of the letter that I have submitted to the present administration and am still waiting for a response. This letter was translated into Spanish for me by one of our DR1 members, as my Spanish is very bad, and I am greatly indebted to that person.
Octubre 4 de 2004

Excmo. Sr. Leonel Fern?ndez
Presidente de la Republica
Palacio Nacional
Santo Domingo

El Seibo, a 4 de octubre de 2004

Excmo. Sr. Fern?ndez:

Me dirijo a usted con el fin de discutir la siguiente propuesta. Me llamo Richard Snyder, soy americano y llevo ocho a?os viviendo en este pa?s. Despu?s de mucho observar me parece que hay fallas en el sistema educativo dominicano. Creo que juntos podemos identificarlas y llegar a un acuerdo sobre la causa de dichas fallas.

Mi hijo est? en el segundo grado y cuando estaba en el primero siempre me interesaba por sus estudios y sus tareas. Los libros que tiene son los siguientes: Nacho 1 y Gran ABC Dominicano. Los revis?. De acuerdo con el plan de estudios las vocales se ense?an primero y la pronunciaci?n de las mismas. Luego se ense?an los consonantes por ejemplo la (m) y los ni?os aprenden las s?labas ma, me, mi, mo, mu, y ?ma dos veces? lo cual equivale a ma/m?. De esta manera, aprenden a formar una palabra completa ?mam?. Esta manera de ense?ar me parece bien sin embargo, creo que falta algo.

?Si usted fuera ni?o de cinco o seis a?os de edad y estuviera en un aula y la profesora le dijera que las letras: a, e, i, o, u se llaman vocales, qu? pensar?a usted? Yo me imaginar?a cu?l es la diferencia entre una vocal y una letra. Tal vez los ni?os piensen igual. Despu?s de haber estudiado las vocales por unos cuantos d?as la profesora empezara a ense?ar los consonantes y les dijera que un consonante es una letra como la (m). Ahora bien si yo fuera uno de los estudiantes no entender?a de d?nde vienen los consonantes. Hay que tener en cuenta que hasta ahora no se ha ense?ado que cada idioma tiene su propio alfabeto y el alfabeto es una serie de letras que representan el sonido fon?tico de las palabras y el alfabeto espa?ol tiene veintinueve letras. En mi opini?n la formaci?n (o el aprendizaje b?sico) b?sica no es adecuada. Dicha formaci?n es igual para todos los idiomas. Seria l?gico ense?arles qu? es el alfabeto, cu?ntas letras tiene el alfabeto espa?ol, y cu?les son las letras.

Supongamos que el estudiante aprende el alfabeto espa?ol, cu?ntas letras tiene y puede decirlo de memoria. Cuando la profesora dice que hay cinco letras que se llaman vocales sabr?a qu? es una letra y podr?a pronunciar las vocales porque ya habr?a aprendido a recitar el alfabeto. Cuando la profesora empieza con los consonantes sabr?a de d?nde vienen esas letras, y que forman parte del alfabeto. La ?ltima etapa es aprender la pronunciaci?n de las s?labas por ejemplo ma- me- mi- mo- mu. Otro beneficio de recitar el alfabeto en voz alta es el estudiante aprende el orden del alfabeto y servir?a tambi?n cuando el estudiante aprenda a leer porque podr?a entender f?cilmente los libros que est?n organizados por orden alfab?tico como el diccionario y la gu?a telef?nica por s?lo nombrar algunos.

En los ?ltimos dos a?os averig?? y pregunt? a m?s de cuatro mil ni?os de entre ocho y dieciocho a?os de edad las siguientes preguntas:

● ?Cu?ntas letras tiene el alfabeto?
● ?Usted puede recitar el alfabeto?

El 93% no sab?a cu?ntas letras tiene el alfabeto y no pudo recitarlo. Estas cifras demuestran que no se ense?? la base que necesitan para aprender m?s f?cilmente.
Cuando comenc? mi investigaci?n me di cuenta de inmediato que los ni?os no aprendieron el alfabeto como es debido. De inmediato pens? en c?mo los ni?os en los Estados Unidos aprenden y recitan el alfabeto como si fuera una canci?n desde un principio. En el 2002 les ense?? a doce ni?os de mi barrio, y a mi hijo tambi?n, el alfabeto como si fuera una canci?n y ahora saben el alfabeto de memoria. Les ense?? la canci?n en dos partes de media hora cada una. Los ni?os disfrutaron de lo que ense?? porque lo hice si fuera un juego. Despu?s de s?lo una hora de ense?anza a?n se acuerdan del alfabeto dos a?os despu?s. ?Cu?l es la recompensa? La recompensa es s? que hay doce ni?os que saben el alfabeto y probablemente hay muchos m?s que no lo saben.

En mi opini?n si se ense?aran mejor los conceptos b?sicos, los ni?os aprender?an m?s f?cilmente y tambi?n estar?an m?s interesados en aprender en general. Creo que el aprender a recitar el alfabeto es una de las cosas m?s b?sicas y simples y no requiere de tiempo. Adem?s es una diversi?n que no cuesta nada. Si le interesa saber m?s de este m?todo de ense?ar me encantar?a tener una cita consigo para explic?rselo. Este servicio es gratis y mi ?nico deseo es que los ni?os aprendan mejor. Si usted no est? de acuerdo con esta idea sugiero que la probemos como parte del programa en El Seibo. S?lo necesitamos un poco de tiempo. Lo veo como una idea innovadora para el sistema de educaci?n. Se lo garantizo que los ni?os aprender?n a recitar el alfabeto en una hora. Si tiene preguntas y quiere m?s informaci?n puede ponerse en contacto conmigo al 809-552-2748 o a mi direcci?n de correo electr?nico Homeseybo@Yahoo.com. Ser?a un placer revisar mi propuesta con usted.

Le saluda muy atentamente,
Richard Snyder

bob saunders · Oct 26, 2004

My wife informs me that in her school they teach kinder and grade one all the letters except w, which they teach in grade two. The reasoning is that few words in spanish contain the w, therefore it is perceived that it is not important to know. As i have been to the school many times and observed the classes, most children in grade one are reading at a level compariable to a North American school. I can't comment on the public schools, but my wife's school in Jarabacoa has a good reputation for teaching the basics in both language and math.

deelt · Oct 26, 2004

Providing a real education would buck the status quo.
Why would anyone in power, regardless of political affiliation,
want to do that?

Marianopolita · Oct 26, 2004

Education is a problem in the DR

In general, I think a variety of factors constitute a "compatible" educational system anywhere and the DR is not an exception. To the naked eye lack of monetary resources, modernization of the teaching methodology and competent educators seem to be some of the primary factors behind the problematic educational system in the country. Rick's letter addresses a potential problem in the primary school system but according to a recent article posted in el List?n Diario the problem continues at all levels. "A good education in the DR" is exclusive to only a limited number of the population and the rest of students are subjected to the substandard education that is offered by the public school system. Another problem in the DR is many young children simply do not attend school for diverse reasons which in the long run has an impact and eventually does reflect negatively on educational level of the general population.

Deelt,

I was wondering if you could expand a bit to ensure that I am reading into what your saying correctly. Your statement bends towards the pros and cons of changing the status quo and how that would affect those who are in power etc. and its implications. Am I correct?

-Lesley D

Here is the article from el List?n Diario:

Autoridades admiten educaci?n RD presenta un nivel muy bajo
Por WANDA M?NDEZ - List?n Diario Digital - 03/10/2004

SANTO DOMINGO.- La calidad de la educaci?n en Rep?blica Dominicana est? lejos de lo demandado por la sociedad moderna del conocimiento y presenta sus dificultades y rezagos en los niveles primario, secundario y universitario.
Las secretarias de Educaci?n (SEE) y de Educaci?n Superior Ciencia y Tecnolog?a (SEESCYT), Alejandrina Germ?n y Ligia Amada Melo, reconocieron esa realidad y plantearon ayer que trabajar?n para mejorar la calidad educativa en sus respectivas ?reas.
Germ?n y Melo hablaron luego de participar en un conversatorio de la Fundaci?n Global Democracia y Desarrollo (Funglobe) sobre la calidad de la Educaci?n en la Sociedad del Conocimiento, que tuvo como expositor al profesor de la Universidad Complutense, de Madrid, Emilio Garc?a.
Garc?a expuso ayer que la educaci?n tiene planteada a exigencias m?ltiples, crecientes, complejas y contradictorias. Puntualiz? que se exige ofrecer criterios y orientaciones para no perderse entre cantidades ingentes de informaciones m?s o menos superficiales y ef?meras que invaden los espacios p?blicos y privados, para mantener el rumbo en proyectos de desarrollo personal y social.
Melo estim? que aunque el pa?s hace esfuerzo por mejorar la calidad de la educaci?n en todos los niveles, todav?a deja mucho que desear, porque las universidades no est?n a la altura de lo que demanda la sociedad del conocimiento.
Sostuvo que los estudiantes tienen deseo de superarse porque ven frente a ellos una competitividad amenazante, pero se?al? que requieren de mucha ayuda, recursos y de instituciones que impulsen su meta.
Refiri? que los que quieren superarse buscan una beca para el extranjero, pero consider? que no es la soluci?n, porque s?lo pueden hacerlo una minor?a.
Manifest? que hay que trabajar para que el egresado de las universidades tengan unos niveles altos de excelencias en las ?reas que elijan para su formaci?n.

Spirit7 · Oct 26, 2004

It's not only the textbooks....

It's not only the textbooks that are inferior or questionable but the teachers' preparation, or lack thereof, is appalling. I don't know about private schools and suspect the teachers are better prepared but in the public schools they are completely lacking in basics such as pronunciation and correct forming of sentences and the 'street lingo' dominates. It's hard to see any changes soon.

Rick Snyder · Oct 26, 2004

Thank you keep it going

Bob Saunders
Thank you for your input. It is nice to know that not all schools are the way they seem to be in the eastern part of this island. All the children and teachers that I have interviewed live and go to school between Santo Domingo and La Romana and Higuey. Even though the letter (w) is not used in words of Spanish origin it is and has always been a letter in the Spanish alphabet and therefore, IMHO, should been taught in pre-school along with the other 28 letters and not change horses in mid-stream.

Deelt
Is that really your honest opinion? Do you really think that the powers to be do not want the Dominicans to be educated? How many more out there share this opinion? To those of you that are Dominican do you hear what they are saying?

Spirit 7
What you said is true but if the textbooks were correct then they could be better used as a guide line. And once again I believe that for any language you must first teach what an alphabet is, how many letters it contains and the order that those letters are placed. I have communicated with the departments of education in Spain, Columbia and Mexico and they have told me that they in fact teach their children how to recite the alphabet in pre-school. In my 22 years in the military I had the fortune to live in 6 different countries in Europe and Asia and they all taught the children how to recite the alphabet in pre-school.
I don?t know but I believe Canada does and I know the USA does. As the education in all these countries is better then here is it not possible that learning the alphabet in pre-school would help the children here in the DR?

Lesley D
I read that article and if the problem is widespread it is going to be tough to get it right but I still believe that they should start with the pre-school as this will have a ripple effect all the way up as time passes. If you lay a good foundation, regardless of what you are building, you will have a better finished product.

deelt · Oct 26, 2004

Rick and Lesley D,

Yes to both of your inquiries. It does not take money to obtain a copy or copies of a curriculum or curriculums, respectively. Now a days all it takes is an email. It does not cost anything to make an Executive decision. Both are especially true in a developing country. Implementation occurs with an authoritative word/hand shake.

How can it be that people are still printing the same Nacho books I studied from over 30 years ago? How can it be that there are still inappropriate racial depictions? Go to the company that prints these Nacho books and find out their political affiliations and look at their political contributions.

Same goes for all other aspects of education. At the end of the day getting anywhere in DR is not what you know is who you know...no need to look further than the political appointments made to see how the country is in fact being led. I believe that people in power/in money actually benefit financially by keeping the masses in ignorance. However, their own ignorance doesn't allow them to see how much more they could benefit if you had a better educated populous. Case in point, India vs. Singapore in the biotech arena.

Like I said in a previous posting (regarding giving back to the homeland on this very issue of education) education is not a priority in the DR. Look at Sri Lanka. This is a DEVELOPING country in lont-term CIVIL WAR. Yet look at their development indicators over the last 10-15 years. They have among the highest literacy rates in the WORLD, same for vaccination, etc. You can have the crappiest building but if people are dropping knowledge no one can take that away from you. This is what you see in these Asian countries. In China, by the time they are 10 years old they are doing college visits to leading learning institutions. These kids are not rich they are just disciplined and realize how enriching an education is.

Education is not an issue of money. It is an issue of morality, values and thus, priority.

D

NALs · Oct 26, 2004

Same goes for all other aspects of education. At the end of the day getting anywhere in DR is not what you know is who you know...no need to look further than the political appointments made to see how the country is in fact being led. I believe that people in power/in money actually benefit financially by keeping the masses in ignorance. However, their own ignorance doesn't allow them to see how much more they could benefit if you had a better educated populous. Case in point, India vs. Singapore in the biotech arena.

I agree on the first part, but the middle part ( the rich wanting the masses to be ignorant) that is just not true for the most part. Though, there are people in powerful positions who take a very paternalistic view towards the masses, most people don't worry about the poor because its not in our best interest.

Everybody persues what's in their best interest, regardless of socio-economic status. Poor people in the DR are ignorant because they prefer to be in such position, not because anybody forces them to be. After all, this country is dotted with internet centers where anybody can go and search up anything they want, there are plenty of bookstores and the libraries are open to all. In addition, there are many kids who do extremely well in the public school system, they are so good that they even get scholarships and grants from organizations in other countries!

The problem with education lies in the lack of goals the average Dominican tends to not impose on him/herself. Too many Dominicans are just comfortable being in mediocrity and quite frankly, that is the recepie for failure.

Like I said in a previous posting (regarding giving back to the homeland on this very issue of education) education is not a priority in the DR. Look at Sri Lanka. This is a DEVELOPING country in lont-term CIVIL WAR. Yet look at their development indicators over the last 10-15 years. They have among the highest literacy rates in the WORLD, same for vaccination, etc. You can have the crappiest building but if people are dropping knowledge no one can take that away from you. This is what you see in these Asian countries. In China, by the time they are 10 years old they are doing college visits to leading learning institutions. These kids are not rich they are just disciplined and realize how enriching an education is.

Literacy rates in the DR hover in the mid to upper 80%. That is pretty high compared to much of the world. Please post your source for Sri Lanka, I would like to look more into that.

China can't be considered here because China is a communist authoritative nation. People there do what the government tells them to do, unlike in the DR where people do whatever they want. The same thing could be arguably said about Cuba, a country where everywhere you go people seem to have a degree on something and/or it is noticeable that they were educated, at least up to high school level.

The fact that they are in a highly unfree society could very well reflect their behaviors in this respect.

Education is not an issue of money. It is an issue of morality, values and thus, priority.

If the parents priority are not in education, don't expect a country to change over night. It starts at the lowest easiest levels first. Parents must learn to put more attention to education, but most are not. Those parents who are are creating the brain power of tomorrow for this country. Because only a minority of parents are doing so, the power system will continue unabbated.

That is guaranteed not because "the rich" don't want the poor to progress, but simply because the poor are keeping themselves impoverished by doing the same thing that keep's them poor.

Their is a saying that says "One of the reasons why men fail to reach their goals is because they kept doing the same thing all their lives"

If some thing is not working, you modify your attitude so that it works. If you don't modify your attitude towards that, change will not come, end of story.

Marianopolita · Oct 26, 2004

Deelt,

Thank you for expanding on your points in your original post. I completely understand your point of view and believe there is very much truth to what your saying. However, I think we have fused two concepts here that should not be fused when trying to understand the problems in the DR educational system. As I perceive it I think we have to consider the following:

What is being taught (which is validated by your post) vs. how education is being taught (Rick's letter). Both concepts right now are the two driving factors that have contributed to the demise of the system overtime. In my opinion I don't think a joint resolution is possible because the current government based on the article from El List?n D may address the issue of having a better curriculum and better teachers but no change to the methodology of teaching. The reverse is possible as well. Alejandrina Germ?n may address improvement in the teaching methodology but of antiquated material. As you mentioned the same Nacho books from thirty years ago. I still think money needs to be put into the system (in the right hands) to instigate any kind of change.

-Lesley D

deelt said:
Rick and Lesley D,

Yes to both of your inquiries. It does not take money to obtain a copy or copies of a curriculum or curriculums, respectively. Now a days all it takes is an email. It does not cost anything to make an Executive decision. Both are especially true in a developing country. Implementation occurs with an authoritative word/hand shake.

How can it be that people are still printing the same Nacho books I studied from over 30 years ago? How can it be that there are still inappropriate racial depictions? Go to the company that prints these Nacho books and find out their political affiliations and look at their political contributions.

Same goes for all other aspects of education. At the end of the day getting anywhere in DR is not what you know is who you know...no need to look further than the political appointments made to see how the country is in fact being led. I believe that people in power/in money actually benefit financially by keeping the masses in ignorance. However, their own ignorance doesn't allow them to see how much more they could benefit if you had a better educated populous. Case in point, India vs. Singapore in the biotech arena.

Like I said in a previous posting (regarding giving back to the homeland on this very issue of education) education is not a priority in the DR. Look at Sri Lanka. This is a DEVELOPING country in lont-term CIVIL WAR. Yet look at their development indicators over the last 10-15 years. They have among the highest literacy rates in the WORLD, same for vaccination, etc. You can have the crappiest building but if people are dropping knowledge no one can take that away from you. This is what you see in these Asian countries. In China, by the time they are 10 years old they are doing college visits to leading learning institutions. These kids are not rich they are just disciplined and realize how enriching an education is.

Education is not an issue of money. It is an issue of morality, values and thus, priority.

D

deelt · Oct 26, 2004

Sri Lanka
http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/cty_f_LKA.html

DR
http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/cty_f_DOM.html

Lesley D,

While I understand where you are coming from money is not the panacea. Since money has been injected but stolen, this is not a good course of action to repeat. Sri Lanka has an much, much. much lower GDP than DR yet look at the break down of investment in public spending and outcomes in literacy rates. Maybe a possible solution is bringing in teachers from Cuba or other more qualified teachers from countries which provide better educational preparation. The thing is that if these teachers are not qualified to teach no money that you pump in is going to change that. Leonel tried to enforce a hire level of education requirement of the teachers and it just plain back fired. There is really no fear of removal, no need to deliver high expectations.
The teachers union is eeringly connected to strong-hold political parties. It is a job security/preservation venue. It is not about the kids.

Nals,

It's interesting that you take such a Republican perspective. All it takes is enforcement of the current regulations. An enforced law can make all the difference to parents who don't give a damn.

The information cited can be found anywhere...look at the UNDP cited above.

On China, to the contrary of your point, it benefits the current gov't to have an ignorant populous. Yet the people can't break their habit of educational excellence (making it a value/moral issue). The communist gov't, as manifested in China, is not as stringent as you think, especially at the local level. At the local level it is like any other country with democratic elections and civic engagement/participation. I speak from my experience from having gone there and the knowledge I have gained from friends that have lived the experience.

Lesley D said:
Deelt,

Thank you for expanding on your points in your original post. I completely understand your point of view and believe there is very much truth to what your saying. However, I think we have fused two concepts here that should not be fused when trying to understand the problems in the DR educational system. As I perceive it I think we have to consider the following:

What is being taught (which is validated by your post) vs. how education is being taught (Rick's letter). Both concepts right now are the two driving factors that have contributed to the demise of the system overtime. In my opinion I don't think a joint resolution is possible because the current government based on the article from El List?n D may address the issue of having a better curriculum and better teachers but no change to the methodology of teaching. The reverse is possible as well. Alejandrina Germ?n may address improvement in the teaching methodology but of antiquated material. As you mentioned the same Nacho books from thirty years ago. I still think money needs to be put into the system (in the rights hands) to instigate any kind of change.

-Lesley D

Rick Snyder · Oct 26, 2004

I don't belive this

NalOwhs,
If there are ANY people in powerful positions with paternalistic views and those people would apply those paternalistic views then the DR would not be in the position it is in. You also said that most rich people don?t worry about the poor because it is not in (your) best interest. I beg to differ with you because it is in your best interest to worry about everything that has a bearing on this country and act accordingly.

Your quote ?Poor people in the DR are ignorant because they prefer to be in such position not because anyone forces them to be.?

ARE YOU SERIOUS? Do you honestly believe that? Now lets look at the rest of your paragraph. You mention that there are a lot of internet centers in the DR but I think it is safe to say that the majority of the Dominicans are computer illiterate still, but that is changing. Book stores are great if you can afford to pay the outrageous price that they want and you are the typical poor Dominican. How many libraries have you seen books in and I use the word libraries loosely. Sure there are children that do well in school but I can almost guarantee you that there are parents or caring people that have helped those children along all through their school years. You failed to mention that the DR has a 58% rating of children that fail to complete 8 years of schooling.

I?ll get to the rest of your post later, my dinner is ready.

NALs · Oct 26, 2004

Sri Lanka
http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/cty_f_LKA.html

DR
http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/cty_f_DOM.html

Nals,

It's interesting that you take such a Republican perspective. All it takes is enforcement of the current regulations. An enforced law can make all the difference to parents who don't give a damn.

The information cited can be found anywhere...look at the UNDP cited above.

Thank you Deelt for the sources. I'll look into them.

And I agree with you on the enforcement of the laws. That makes it clear that the "rich" have nothing to do about the education crisis in this country neither does the actual people in the government, but the enforcers of those rules and regulations that exist already on paper.

What good is a good politician writing in a law when the police won't enforce them properly?

NALs · Oct 26, 2004

If there are ANY people in powerful positions with paternalistic views and those people would apply those paternalistic views then the DR would not be in the position it is in.

Maybe I used the wrong word, what I meant to say was that there are some people in powerful positions who look at this country as a fiefdom where the "serfs" (ie. masses) exist for the sole purpose of granting the "nobles" wishes.

You also said that most rich people don?t worry about the poor because it is not in (your) best interest. I beg to differ with you because it is in your best interest to worry about everything that has a bearing on this country and act accordingly.

What happens in global economics is in our best interest, more so than among the poor, except if its a planning of revolt or something. Remember, we are an export oriented economy, how our goods and services sell abroad is more important to some extent to how well they do at home because we earn more from abroad than at home.

Given the free trade deal going on, anything the country needs could be supplied by foreign corporations whom themselves have huge stakes in international business.

Your quote ?Poor people in the DR are ignorant because they prefer to be in such position not because anyone forces them to be.?

The average poor Dominican women has more children than the average rich Dominican women. The one's who can't afford more children are the one's having more children. That is simply going to cause further strains in their income distribution, thus causing the future generations to be much more poorer than the present. Did anybody besides a poor man forces a poor woman to have children rampantly? I don't think so.

In addition, poor people don't save anything of what they earn. Sure, saving now would cause them to consume less, further agravating their current living conditions, but the future rewards of having savings as a cushion in the long run and for future generations within that family are worth the present sacrifice. Of course, they don't see that, they don't plan for the future in any sense, economically, socially, or anything. It's a shame. They don't plan how many kids they can economically have (for most I would say would be zero), they don't budget well, etc.

Poor people are poor because they keep doing over and over again the very same things that made them and/or kept them poor to begin with.

You mention that there are a lot of internet centers in the DR but I think it is safe to say that the majority of the Dominicans are computer illiterate still, but that is changing.

Illiterate people can self teach themselves if they truly have a will to learn. That is my underline basis in all of this, if people don't have a real will to learn, then forget it, they are not going to learn.

Even if you force them, they will learn the minimal at best and maintain horrible overall grades at best.

It's like I said, the truly smart ones are already stellars in the system.

How many libraries have you seen books in and I use the word libraries loosely.

I'll agree that many libraries are ill fully lacking books. However, the Biblioteca Nacional in Santo Domingo is quite well stocked with books and in my opinion, its not being visited enough, considering that Santo Domingo is home to 3 million people. What good are well stocked expensive libraries if nobody will visit them?

Sure there are children that do well in school but I can almost guarantee you that there are parents or caring people that have helped those children along all through their school years.

That's my point! The parents that truly care about their children's future are those who believe in their own children. As such, those parents put heavy emphasis on education and their children become stellar educated peoples, even though the system is in shambles. Now, imagine if most parents were like that, we would not be lamenting the education problem in this country, now would we?

You failed to mention that the DR has a 58% rating of children that fail to complete 8 years of schooling.

Why do they fail? Was it because of the "rich" or their economical situation? Then, I'll ask why is it hard for many poor parents to see that if they keep their kid in school, he or she would probably be better off in the long run, almost ensuring (based on how most Dominicans think) that their kid will be able to take care of them once they are old. But, no. They only worry about right now and as such, the kid comes out of school to "help support the family", making the child's future empoverished before the child even has a say in it, afterall its his future.

Now, I understand there are some families that just have to do such drastic measures in order to really survive, but I don't believe that their numbers should be enough to create such statistics as that which were presented here.

I?ll get to the rest of your post later, my dinner is ready.

In that case, tenga buen provecho.

deelt · Oct 26, 2004

Thanks for agreeing with me on enforcement, but I can't return the favor. I was just responding to your logic using your logic. The fact that their is no enforcement proves my point, so I'm with Rick on this one. I just don't have the energy or time right now to duke it out with you since I have to earn a living.

Nal0whs said:
And I agree with you on the enforcement of the laws. That makes it clear that the "rich" have nothing to do about the education crisis in this country neither does the actual people in the government, but the enforcers of those rules and regulations that exist already on paper.

What good is a good politician writing in a law when the police won't enforce them properly?

On some of your other points man I really don't know where you get this stuff.
It's just so prime for comment.

The average poor Dominican women has more children than the average rich Dominican women. The one's who can't afford more children are the one's having more children.

Who are these women having babies with? I'd say the well established philandering men...usually the local "Don" spreading his seed without shame and without support.

On the saving issue...how can you save with a fluctuating peso; how can you save or make plans in an unstable economy and with the only thing that is certain is uncertainty? Ask any Argentinian how much they were able to save during the crash. Please...

Families supplementing their child's education by helping their child to read and think critically are EDUCATED themselves. This eases the child's understanding in the classroom. Most likely than not, the most educated parents/families are also well connected...sure helps when it comes time to "apply" to those scholarships. Even the most legitimately granted scholarships go to those in higher echelons of the social ladder. You should know a little bit about that I would think. Last time I checked you were among those blessed to go abroad, right? I would love to hear your rags to riches USA bonified graduation story. I want to hear it all. Starting from your first Nacho book to how you were able to make it knowing only 27 letters in the alphabet. Couldn't resist.

I really don't have the time right now, hopefully Rick or someone else can pick the ball up on this one.

Marianopolita · Oct 27, 2004

Deelt,

I looked at the links and I also understand your analysis especially the part where you state that the teacher's union (therefore the educational system) is linked to "strong-hold political parties". So what you are saying in a nutshell is:

Esto va pa' largo. No tiene soluci?n inmediata como el problema del suministro de la luz. Es un reflejo de la corrupci?n que persiste en los pa?ses del Tercer Mundo. I hear you loudly and clearly.

-Lesley D

deelt said:
Sri Lanka
http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/cty_f_LKA.html

DR
http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/cty_f_DOM.html

Lesley D,

While I understand where you are coming from money is not the panacea. Since money has been injected but stolen, this is not a good course of action to repeat. Sri Lanka has an much, much. much lower GDP than DR yet look at the break down of investment in public spending and outcomes in literacy rates. Maybe a possible solution is bringing in teachers from Cuba or other more qualified teachers from countries which provide better educational preparation. The thing is that if these teachers are not qualified to teach no money that you pump in is going to change that. Leonel tried to enforce a hire level of education requirement of the teachers and it just plain back fired. There is really no fear of removal, no need to deliver high expectations.
The teachers union is eeringly connected to strong-hold political parties. It is a job security/preservation venue. It is not about the kids.

Nals,

It's interesting that you take such a Republican perspective. All it takes is enforcement of the current regulations. An enforced law can make all the difference to parents who don't give a damn.

The information cited can be found anywhere...look at the UNDP cited above.

On China, to the contrary of your point, it benefits the current gov't to have an ignorant populous. Yet the people can't break their habit of educational excellence (making it a value/moral issue). The communist gov't, as manifested in China, is not as stringent as you think, especially at the local level. At the local level it is like any other country with democratic elections and civic engagement/participation. I speak from my experience from having gone there and the knowledge I have gained from friends that have lived the experience.

deelt · Oct 27, 2004

Exactamente. People are out to make a quick buck with no regard to long-term planning and with no accountability.

D

Lesley D said:
Deelt,

I looked at the links and I also understand your analysis especially the part where you state that the teacher's union (therefore the educational system) is linked to "strong-hold political parties". So what you are saying in a nutshell is:

Esto va pa' largo. No tiene soluci?n inmediata como el problema del suministro de la luz. Es un reflejo de la corrupci?n que persiste en los pa?ses del Tercer Mundo. I hear you loudly and clearly.

-Lesley D

Rick Snyder · Oct 27, 2004

This is not an attack on anyboby

NalOwhs, Don?t take this wrong as it is not an attack on you, rather an observation of the typical Dominican and their mind-set. I have read many of your posts and from them I have ascertained that you are very intelligent but still think like a typical Dominican. IMHO the mind-set of the typical Dominican has nothing to do with smart or stupid, rich or poor, young or old, it has to do with that age old custom of self-centeredness. As you have never posted your autobiography I can only reflect on the information that you have posted over time. As you come from a family that is well-to-do then you were born into it and your desires are for your children to be as well off as you and there is nothing wrong with this thinking but it is the typical mind-set. Now if you would like to know of some Dominicans that did not have the typical mind-set then here are a few; Jos? N??ez de C?ceres, Juan Pablo Duarte, Ram?n Mat?as Mella, Francisco del Rosario S?nchez, Gregorio Luper?n, Juan Antonio Alix, Ulises Francisco Espaillat, Fernando Arturo de Meri?o, Francisco Xavier Billini, Salom? Ure?a, Francisco Henr?quez y Carvajal and his brother Federico, Emilio Prud?Homme, Fabio Fiallo Cabral, Pedro Henr?quez Ure?a and Ercicla Pep?n. All of the aforementioned Dominicans lived with the intension, without predilection, in helping their fellow Dominicans. I, a non-resident, bad Spanish speaking foreigner, have taught the Spanish alphabet to Dominican children, taught English to many Dominican people of all ages, am still trying to convience Dominican people to take an active role in their political forum and am still trying to get the Dominican Republic to incorporate teaching the Spanish alphabet to their children at an early age. I do not do this for money or fame I do this because this is my home, where I live and I want the Dominican Republic to be better because then I benefit as do all the people in this country???..The question to all Dominicans is what have you done for your country and fellow Dominicans lately?

NALs · Oct 27, 2004

NalOwhs, Don?t take this wrong as it is not an attack on you, rather an observation of the typical Dominican and their mind-set.

Don't worry, as long that you don't intentionally and obviously slander me a bunch of attacks, I won't take any info as an attack.

IMHO the mind-set of the typical Dominican has nothing to do with smart or stupid, rich or poor, young or old, it has to do with that age old custom of self-centeredness.

I differ from this point of view. The typical mindset in the DR is responsible for the failures in material well being of most Dominicans. Most procastinate too much, most settle for mediocrity, most "leave things to God", etc etc etc.

It's very hard to say that such mindset is not at least partially responsible for failure not just in Dominicans, but in anybody.

Self-centeredness is a concept that is more new in the overall population. There have been figures that were very self centered and they made it to power, thus throwing the country in anarchy and economic meltdown numerous times, but within the masses for many years the belief in the overall well being was above personal satisfaction. That was very well present in the country among the masses for many many years.

After the Dominican Republic became more consumer driven (in the last 40 years or so), attitudes in the country have been changing. People have become ever more self-centered than before in this country. Anybody who were born and raised or who visited the country in the 1960s right after Trujillo was out and then came back today, would tell you that what was so "special" about the DR is rapidly eroding. Although, today many foreigners are surprised to see a "vecino" come over and share with them a meal just for the sake of sharing, but the truth is that that is happening less and less as the DR keeps becoming more consumer driven.

As you come from a family that is well-to-do then you were born into it and your desires are for your children to be as well off as you and there is nothing wrong with this thinking.

I personally don't worry too much about my children being exactly as well off as myself, I worry more that my children understand why we are well off and why we maintain our wealth and even grow it from time to time. That is more important that simply being as well off as myself.

The reason why I say that is because if my children end up being less wealthy than myself, at least they will know what to do to keep whatever wealth they have. Though its true, they will inherit something, the reality is that how much they will inherit is not as important as how much they know how to maintain it.

I, a non-resident, bad Spanish speaking foreigner, have taught the Spanish alphabet to Dominican children, taught English to many Dominican people of all ages, am still trying to convience Dominican people to take an active role in their political forum and am still trying to get the Dominican Republic to incorporate teaching the Spanish alphabet to their children at an early age. I do not do this for money or fame I do this because this is my home, where I live and I want the Dominican Republic to be better because then I benefit as do all the people in this country???..

The same thing could be said of many of the rich in this country. Though, the motivation is more self-centered for the rich to maintain their wealth and increase it over time to keep ahead of inflation, the reality is that the actions of many (but not all) the rich had positive repercussion on the masses. It's like that old saying "the rich get richer and the poor get jobs".

The question to all Dominicans is what have you done for your country and fellow Dominicans lately?

That sounds like the John F. Kennedy speech to his countrymen in the USA in the 1960s.

The truth is that the rich have done more for this country than most other people have. Many of the rich did not had that in their intentions, but that was the byproduct of their "greed".

The thing about wealth is that it amplifies things. A nice poor person could do something positive for his/her country and given to his impoverished situation, he/she would only change a one person at time, so to speak. A nice rich person would do something positive for his/her country and thousands would reap the benefits of such action. Both actions were the same, both were for the benefit of the nation, but the one with the economic power made more of an impact than the poor fellow.

The thing is that most of the people that are rich or decendants of rich are decendants of a line of people that thought first of themselves and actually did something about. Usually, that something benefited society as a whole and as such, the wealth was created over a period of time.

Its no secret that wealth created under shady conditions comes and goes with ease and rapidity, but wealth created not necessarily with the intetion of doing good, but simply under an action that was good for society, that wealth accumulates slower but last longer and to some respect, is easier and better to enjoy.

Lambada · Oct 28, 2004

I believe it was deelt who mentioned critical thinking. I taught in Puerto Plata when I first arrived here 12 years ago & was dumbfounded then by teaching methodology which the children appeared accustomed to. It was to repeat, out loud, parrot fashion, what the teacher said. Obviously, I could not go along with this as the educational value to the children was minimal. So we used methods which involved the children in having to problem solve for themselves, with assistance, when needed, either from myself, or better still from other students, methods like role play, for example (I was teaching English). It took a very short time for the children to catch on to these sorts of methods. It took a bit longer for the school to catch on. Cost in financial terms was zero..........I would have been paid the same salary regardless of whether I did a good job or a lousy one. Cost in terms of effort was huge, because one was helping other teachers to broaden their methods, as well as working with the children. Enough people doing a little of this would make a difference.
But I have to agree, it does not attack the structural issues which are the root cause of educational problems.

A very long post on educating the children

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