NTSB: Co-Pilot to Blame for Flight 587

Hillbilly

Hillbilly

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Oh sure, blame it on the pilot!

This whole case has me really ticked off.

If you are in a car and there is an truck coming your way, and you violently move the steering wheel back and forth to save your butt, and something breaks and you are seriously injured or killed, is it your fault? (assuming proper maintenence and so forth-as was the case of the airframe and engines)...FLUCK NO!..it was the design flaw that allowed a comosit tail fin to be "bonded" to the composite mainframe with epoxies. It had been identified as a problem, but were pilots instructed not to move the verticle rudder from full left to full right? NO THEY WERE NOT!!

You turn left and you turn right and bang! the freakin'rudder falls off!

I am sorry but this stinks. I have studied aircrashes from a distance and with expert assistance (Like a Ph.D. in Aeronautical Engineering from Cal Tech).. In one case, here in the DR a fairly new DC-9 crashed just after takeoff from Las Americas, killing all aboard. The pilot was a Cuban with tens of thousands of hours of flying time. However, he had just done the required 50 hours of training on the DC-9. When an engine blew on takeoff, the most dangerous moment of flight, he just automatically did what he had been trained to do for those tens of thousands of hours, rather than what he had been trained to do for those 50 hours. The result was a cartwheel, a lost of aerodynamic stability and disaster. Pilot error all the way.

The proof was seen on an Eastern flight just a week or so later. Same scenario and nothing happened to anyone, in fact, the passengers did not even know something was wrong until they landed again at Las Americas.

Sorry for AA and the families of the pilots...they don't deserve this..

HB :(:(:(
 
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BushBaby

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I am TOTALLY with HB on this one. This is an out & out DESIGN problem!!

If Airbus KNEW there was a problem going from Full left rudder to Full right rudder, they should have built in the neccessary overide system to prevent such a circumstance arising!! Some have suggested Co-pilot error because of hitting the rudder pedal too HARD, in which case there was a 'Design' error in not building in the requisite hydrolic system to prevent this from happening!!

Question. Why was the Co-pilot blamed? My understanding is that the PILOT takes overall responsibility for HIS aircraft at all times? Was HE in his seat at the time & was HE in a condition to fly? If so, why did he not assume control as is his DUTY? A 'Red Herring' to the real question I agree, but still ones that needs to be asked of AA - "Why blame the Co-Pilot & not the person in overall control - the PILOT"?

In my humble opinion, this is a cop out where AA, Airbus & their insurers have done a deal to reduce to the minimum the damage that grounding the airbus fleet to rectify the fault, would cost them all!! Each will now blame the other to hide the fact that a deal has been struck between them AND delay any further compensation claims that will be forthcoming! ~ Grahame.
 
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carlos

carlos

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May 29, 2002
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also, I thought the initial reports mentioned that a JAL Jumbo Jet had taken off before the AA plane did, and that Jet was what caused the intitial problems with turbulence and so on.

I read traffic control violated regulations by not allowing at least a 90 second gap between takeoffs.

was this discarded?
 
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Porfio_Rubirosa

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Apparently the NTSB report also mentions an "overly sensitive" rudder control on the A300 (though the full report is not available on the web yet). No mention of the "bonded" tail fin.

Without laying blame, I wonder why the co-pilot used the rudder to try to steady the airplane in the wake of turbulance instead of the aelerons? I wonder if that was SOP at the AA training center and, if so, why?
 
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Argo

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Aug 5, 2004
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Hillbilly said:
This whole case has me really ticked off.

If you are in a car and there is an truck coming your way, and you violently move the steering wheel back and forth to save your butt, and something breaks and you are seriously injured or killed, is it your fault? (assuming proper maintenence and so forth-as was the case of the airframe and engines)...FLUCK NO!..it was the design flaw that allowed a comosit tail fin to be "bonded" to the composite mainframe with epoxies. It had been identified as a problem, but were pilots instructed not to move the verticle rudder from full left to full right? NO THEY WERE NOT!!

You turn left and you turn right and bang! the freakin'rudder falls off!

I am sorry but this stinks. I have studied aircrashes from a distance and with expert assistance (Like a Ph.D. in Aeronautical Engineering from Cal Tech).. In one case, here in the DR a fairly new DC-9 crashed just after takeoff from Las Americas, killing all aboard. The pilot was a Cuban with tens of thousands of hours of flying time. However, he had just done the required 50 hours of training on the DC-9. When an engine blew on takeoff, the most dangerous moment of flight, he just automatically did what he had been trained to do for those tens of thousands of hours, rather than what he had been trained to do for those 50 hours. The result was a cartwheel, a lost of aerodynamic stability and disaster. Pilot error all the way.

The proof was seen on an Eastern flight just a week or so later. Same scenario and nothing happened to anyone, in fact, the passengers did not even know something was wrong until they landed again at Las Americas.

Sorry for AA and the families of the pilots...they don't deserve this..

HB :(:(:(
Click to expand...


In the case of the flying cigar tube you referenced, it truly was pilot error using yoru facts. the CP was not qualified to handle and emergency and I don't know what the hell he was doing as PIC during the emergency

As for the AA flight, no one is perfect. It should be attributed to a design fault unless an AD or other report had been issued advising against adverse rudder use during turbelence

Someone has to be blamed, not always the correct entity though
 
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Argo

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Porfio_Rubirosa said:
Apparently the NTSB report also mentions an "overly sensitive" rudder control on the A300 (though the full report is not available on the web yet). No mention of the "bonded" tail fin.

Without laying blame, I wonder why the co-pilot used the rudder to try to steady the airplane in the wake of turbulance instead of the aelerons? I wonder if that was SOP at the AA training center and, if so, why?
Click to expand...

It depends on the type of reaction of the Bus, if it was yawing from turb, the rudder is used, aierlons are seldom used for anything except takeoff and landing.
 
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TEHAMA

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I agree with Hillbilly. Dont tell me you can only "rock the rudder" so much before it snaps. Thats complete Bullsh*t.

A plane landed in Atlanta a couple of years back and (true story) the damn wings fell OFF! I saw the overhead helicopter shot of the plane of TV. American airlines I think. No injuries nor fatalities, but many scared passengers I am sure. I looked for that story in the National news but notice it was only covered locally, and then only briefly.

Airbus is known as SCAREBUS by those in the industry. I will never forget the footage of the plane they designed in France to take-off and land automatically. They scrapped those plans quickly when in front of the media the damn plane went straight into the woods.
TEHAMA
 
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Argo

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Aug 5, 2004
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TEHAMA said:
I agree with Hillbilly. Dont tell me you can only "rock the rudder" so much before it snaps. Thats complete Bullsh*t.

A plane landed in Atlanta a couple of years back and (true story) the damn wings fell OFF! I saw the overhead helicopter shot of the plane of TV. American airlines I think. No injuries nor fatalities, but many scared passengers I am sure. I looked for that story in the National news but notice it was only covered locally, and then only briefly.

Airbus is known as SCAREBUS by those in the industry. I will never forget the footage of the plane they designed in France to take-off and land automatically. They scrapped those plans quickly when in front of the media the damn plane went straight into the woods.
TEHAMA
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I don't know what "industry" you may be in, but it sure isn't aviation if you think the point to point system has been scrapped. Many Airlines are using that system, now incorporated with GPS from pushback to gate

the incident to which you refer was a test flight by AirBUs, the computer miscalculated and if you know the slightest thing about turbines, there is a lag in spool up, especially when going from a low power setting (Landing) to full emergency. The pilot apparently relied on (I wasn't on the flight deck as many of you armchair pilots surely were) the computer to provide full emergency go around, but ity lagged and by the time he (The pilot) shoved the pedastal forward, you could watch the smoke from the unburned kero pouring out and the doomed bus settling in

Pilot error or mechanical?.. I wasn't there. Some would say mechanical as the system didn't perform as designed, some would say PE as the PIC failed to respond to an emergency situation, the computer was never PIC

BTW, have never been PIC in either a Bus or 7 series boeing, but prefer the Boeing iron to Euro plastic :)
 
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miguel

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This is all bullcrap!!!!!!

As I said on the other thread, we will never know what happened to that plane, plain and simple.

Everybody is blaming everybody and it's not fair. The co-pilot's family SHOULD NOT GO THRU THIS FRICKING PAIN.

My aunt was aboard that plane and my friend lost his mother and brother also and I am getting fricking sick and tired of my cousins reliving the pain that goes with every single "maybe this is what happened". The are just playing the "blame game" and it's unfair for those that are still suffering the lost of a loved one. WE WILL NEVER KNOW, EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!.
 
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TEHAMA

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Miguel, I am very sorry for your lost. But we should know. We must know.

As aviation makes improvements to safety and security, they MUST go through every painstaking detail to make certain is never happends again. They dont swim and dive to gather every piece of wreckage simply to have it.

The crash off the coast of California 5-6 years resulted in improvements to the tail flaps what would go uninspected for several years. Many decades ago transatlantic flights would crash and they had no idea why as the wreckage would be lost somewhere at sea. After many years of simulating pressure and stress on the fuselage, they realized the design flaw in the size and shape of the windows. And that each one would snap at certain pressure levels. This redesign is present in all new aircrafts (just look at old aircraft pictures).

I know it must be painful to revisit your lost each time. And I am sorry that you have to go through it. However, to simply write this crash off as pilot error places all of us in jeapordy. THE DAMN TAIL FELL OFF!! When the door flewoff the Hawaiian Flight it was later determined that someone didn't secure the cargo door properly. That's human error. When I am at the airport I dont see personnel opening and closing the tail. As the Long Island residents in that community realize, you DONT have to buy an airline ticket to die in the plane crash.

ARGO- I am not understanding your point at all. What does a damn GPS have to do with the tail snapping off? ON STAR, HERTZ, Greyhound, and many city bus systems now use GPS. Hell, the technology is barely 20 years ago and anyone can buy that same "fancy" system at Radio Shack! I am not a pilot, my Brother is. And I know personally and professionally G. Black on the NTSB, Region Four (thou I havent seen him lately). My Brother would often make the reference to Airbus. And I "proudly" claim the title of ARMCHAIR PILOT, and add the computer was trying to land the plane as the pilot attempting to over ride and climbout.
TEHAMA
 
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Music

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TEHAMA,

I understand what your saying they should try to figure out what happened so we prevent it from happening again. But at the same time I agree with Miguel as well they just go on a on about it but have no answers except accusing people just to have an answer. I had a friend who was on that flight and his mother has to keep hearing about it. A reminder of how she lost her only son to an accident and still has no idea what happened. The media just loves to go on and on just to make a story. I know we want to know why but how about they just stay quite until they actually find out what happened and if the don't we will have to try to except that they don't know why. The families of the people who were on that flight already have to deal with enough.

Just my thoughts.

TEHAMA said:
Miguel, I am very sorry for your lost. But we should know. We must know.

As aviation makes improvements to safety and security, they MUST go through every painstaking detail to make certain is never happends again. They dont swim and dive to gather every piece of wreckage simply to have it.

The crash off the coast of California 5-6 years resulted in improvements to the tail flaps what would go uninspected for several years. Many decades ago transatlantic flights would crash and they had no idea why as the wreckage would be lost somewhere at sea. After many years of simulating pressure and stress on the fuselage, they realized the design flaw in the size and shape of the windows. And that each one would snap at certain pressure levels. This redesign is present in all new aircrafts (just look at old aircraft pictures).

I know it must be painful to revisit your lost each time. And I am sorry that you have to go through it. However, to simply write this crash off as pilot error places all of us in jeapordy. THE DAMN TAIL FELL OFF!! When the door flewoff the Hawaiian Flight it was later determined that someone didn't secure the cargo door properly. That's human error. When I am at the airport I dont see personnel opening and closing the tail. As the Long Island residents in that community realize, you DONT have to buy an airline ticket to die in the plane crash.

ARGO- I am not understanding your point at all. What does a damn GPS have to do with the tail snapping off? ON STAR, HERTZ, Greyhound, and many city bus systems now use GPS. Hell, the technology is barely 20 years ago and anyone can buy that same "fancy" system at Radio Shack! I am not a pilot, my Brother is. And I know personally and professionally G. Black on the NTSB, Region Four (thou I havent seen him lately). My Brother would often make the reference to Airbus. And I "proudly" claim the title of ARMCHAIR PILOT, and add the computer was trying to land the plane as the pilot attempting to over ride and climbout.
TEHAMA
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Porfio_Rubirosa

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I'm confused by the posts that say we don't know what really happened. Gracias a Dios we know from the report exactly what happened. That is the most important thing, because, with that knowledge, future accidents can be prevented.

The blame game comes second and only refers to which entity, AA or Airbus, is "more" liable. There seems to be no question that they are BOTH liable based on the circumstances.

I'm also not sure I agree with the premis that it is the responsibilty of the plane's manufacturer to design away all contingencies that might result in loss of control of an aircraft. Pilots know in general that imprudent use of flight controls can cause structural damage to an aircraft. Airbus says that the AA co-pilot was "stomping" back and forth on the rudder pedal.

That said, if Airbus knew that the rudder might not tolerate emergency manuevers as provided in standard pilot training regiments - that it was unusually weak (and it seems that they might have known) - or that the controls were, as the NTSB said, unusually sensitive - then, clearly, the major error was on Airbus' part.
 
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swake

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This tread was rapidly sliding down to a cheap 'US steal vs Euro plastic' rant at the expense of 265 souls and their relatives. Thanks Porfio for some wise words.

FWIW airplane tails don't ''''''fall'''''' off just like that. Please don't be tempted to turn it all into a mockery. Tnx
 
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TEHAMA

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Okay, Here's the real deal (as I see it). And I apologize before hand.

As it was a plane of Dominicans who cares. We'll just call it "pilot error" and maybe they wont realize the damn plane fell apart. Now thats a crock of sh*t and the "true" mockery of this. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW PEOPLE WILL TRAVEL ON JUST ONE INDIVIDUAL AIRCRAFT OVER ITS FULL LIFE? 200 people x 4 trips/day X 365 days x 20 years...and that's probably not even close.

I honestly dont remember the last time pilot error was determine as the cause of crash. They probably wrote in the Value Jet in Miami as they couldn't retreive the damn plane.

I sympathize with all the family members lost. But would not in anyway accept this decision had it been a member of my family. I big companies are gettin away with this lame *** excuse solely because they are Dominicans. There are families still fighting over the 911 situation, and we all know what happened there.
I will shut up now!
TEHAMA
 
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miguel

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Ok, listen!

All I am saying is that I can write 2 pages, single spaced, of all the "we think that this is what happened" that we have been told. I am all for finding out what happened but in my humble opinion, they should just find out, study it, re-examine the finding, study it 10 more times and then and only then, release it to the public. Do so when you have all the prove in the world that says that that was the way that happened. If not, they should just stop playing the "blaming game". Noone wants to take responsabilty and since we are talking about powerful corporation, WE WILL NEVER FIND OUT!!!!

Every time that another "this is what we think happened" comes along, my poor cousin gets on the phone and the first thing that she says to me, while crying her eyes out, is "now they are saying this, when is it going to end".
 
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Porfio_Rubirosa

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TEHAMA said:
As it was a plane of Dominicans who cares. We'll just call it "pilot error" and maybe they wont realize the damn plane fell apart. Now thats a crock of sh*t and the "true" mockery of this...I honestly dont remember the last time pilot error was determine as the cause of crash. They probably wrote in the Value Jet in Miami as they couldn't retreive the damn plane...I sympathize with all the family members lost. But would not in anyway accept this decision had it been a member of my family. I big companies are gettin away with this lame *** excuse solely because they are Dominicans.
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I don't get this at all. The NTSB is an American agency and, as such, was probably under pressure to find Airbus, not AA, responsible. Also, the NTSB report does not impact the right of the victims' families to recover from AA and Airbus. AA is absolutely liable for its employee.

The real fight will be between AA and Airbus to see which side has to pay more.

There have been a number of pilot error accidents in recent years, some involving AA. I remember one where the AA operations center urged a pilot to try to outrace a serious storm to Little Rock. He lost. I remember another one where both Northwest pilots forgot to retract the flaps for a take-off.

As for the victims being Dominicans and "who cares", where the hell did that come from?
 
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swake

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TEHAMA said:
I honestly dont remember the last time pilot error was determine as the cause of crash. TEHAMA
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'Racing the storm' AA1420 was on National Geographic a few months ago. Another PE that comes to mind is the AA965 crash in Buga.
Since the 1980 American lost 5 airliners in deadly crashes, 2 planes hijacked on 9/11, 2 crashes probable cause PE and the last one, well let's wait for the complete report before we all cry wolf.
 
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