Updated Haitian VISA info etc.

mountainannie

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I checked on the web page of the Haitian Embassy in DC for the newest requirements on visas. All incoming passengers are issued visas at the airport except those from the following FOUR countries who must apply in advance:

China (populaire - mainland- )
Panama
Columbia
Dominican Republic

Visitors who wish to go there might wish to visit tripadvisor.com and read updates from people who have been in and out and about during the recent "difficulties".

And please, could we bear in mind that Haiti is the second oldest independent nation in the Western Hemisphere, only 15 younger than the United States, the only nation in the world where the slaves rose up and took the land from their conquerors? If they were not forced by the entire "white" world, mostly by the United States which was slave holding at the time, to cut down all their forests in order to pay the French reparations for the economic loss that the French "suffered" for the loss of their "colony" , Haiti would look exactly as lush and green as the DR. So Haiti is the result of our foreign policy. Such a pretty sight.

Amen. I'll get off the soapbox.

Elizabeth
 

sweetdbt

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Oh, I'm sure you'll get back on it

mountainannie said:
I checked on the web page of the Haitian Embassy in DC for the newest requirements on visas. All incoming passengers are issued visas at the airport except those from the following FOUR countries who must apply in advance:

China (populaire - mainland- )
Panama
Columbia
Dominican Republic

Visitors who wish to go there might wish to visit tripadvisor.com and read updates from people who have been in and out and about during the recent "difficulties".

And please, could we bear in mind that Haiti is the second oldest independent nation in the Western Hemisphere, only 15 younger than the United States, the only nation in the world where the slaves rose up and took the land from their conquerors? If they were not forced by the entire "white" world, mostly by the United States which was slave holding at the time, to cut down all their forests in order to pay the French reparations for the economic loss that the French "suffered" for the loss of their "colony" , Haiti would look exactly as lush and green as the DR. So Haiti is the result of our foreign policy. Such a pretty sight.

Amen. I'll get off the soapbox.

Elizabeth

Just what we need another revisionist historian! Never pass on any opportunity to blame the "great satan" for all the world's problems. Haiti still had forests after those reperations were paid. Their current sad situation (and it is indeed sad) is more a result of the continued practice of cutting down every stick of wood in sight to make charcoal for cooking and no plan for reforestation.
 

mountainannie

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Wait---

Sorry - had to just step back on the soapbox for another minute because I absolutely LOVE that country and its people. Here in Las Terrenas, many of the locals speak French as the French here have been running a free school for the children - (well, they need Maids, after all, don't they?) and so whenever I ask one of them if they are Haitian, they look at me as if I had called them a dirty word....... Then I tell them how much I love Haiti and how beautiful the people are. The two actual Haitians that I have met naturally adore me.

It was for 13 years ( or maybe 16) that they paid the French. Boat after boat went across the sea full of the rich forests of Haiti.... Napoleon et al cracked his whip hard there. I love it when the Europeans talk to me about the horrors of slavery in the United States. Let's not mention the Congo or Algeria or South Africa or Kenya or any of that, shall we????

In Puerto Rico, I heard that the Spanish, in order to keep the blood lines pure, required lineage papers back three generations before one could marry a Spaniard - so there would be no "Black blood" For the French, it was 128 years. For the British - well, if you were British - it simply wasn't done. I mean, you wouldn't be let into the club, would you? And the Church, which was and is the State, would not allow it.

So while the United States certainly has a lot of blood on its young hands, they are still relatively clean compared to the blood soak hands of Europe.

OK - now I think I am finished.

Everybody go to Haiti. Spend money. I'm going in January.....

best to all and thanks for letting me spout --- I'm about the only Yank here and have been graciously taking a lot of Yank bashing for the last few weeks. Blood was dripping down my chin from biting my tongue.

I feel much better now for having gotten that off my chest and can go back to another week of tongue biting.

Elizabeth
 

sweetdbt

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I must be psychic!

mountainannie said:
Sorry - had to just step back on the soapbox for another minute because I absolutely LOVE that country and its people. Here in Las Terrenas, many of the locals speak French as the French here have been running a free school for the children - (well, they need Maids, after all, don't they?) and so whenever I ask one of them if they are Haitian, they look at me as if I had called them a dirty word....... Then I tell them how much I love Haiti and how beautiful the people are. The two actual Haitians that I have met naturally adore me.

It was for 13 years ( or maybe 16) that they paid the French. Boat after boat went across the sea full of the rich forests of Haiti.... Napoleon et al cracked his whip hard there. I love it when the Europeans talk to me about the horrors of slavery in the United States. Let's not mention the Congo or Algeria or South Africa or Kenya or any of that, shall we????

In Puerto Rico, I heard that the Spanish, in order to keep the blood lines pure, required lineage papers back three generations before one could marry a Spaniard - so there would be no "Black blood" For the French, it was 128 years. For the British - well, if you were British - it simply wasn't done. I mean, you wouldn't be let into the club, would you? And the Church, which was and is the State, would not allow it.

So while the United States certainly has a lot of blood on its young hands, they are still relatively clean compared to the blood soak hands of Europe.

OK - now I think I am finished.

Everybody go to Haiti. Spend money. I'm going in January.....

best to all and thanks for letting me spout --- I'm about the only Yank here and have been graciously taking a lot of Yank bashing for the last few weeks. Blood was dripping down my chin from biting my tongue.

I feel much better now for having gotten that off my chest and can go back to another week of tongue biting.

Elizabeth

What did I say?
Sorry Elizabeth. ;) I spent my Christmas break in Haiti as a college student 25 years ago, helping build a school for a missionary effort. I'd love to go back again as soon as it's more stable, but unfortunately, It doesn't look like that will be very soon.
 

mountainannie

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And that would be because?

sweetdbt said:
Just what we need another revisionist historian! Never pass on any opportunity to blame the "great satan" for all the world's problems. Haiti still had forests after those reperations were paid. Their current sad situation (and it is indeed sad) is more a result of the continued practice of cutting down every stick of wood in sight to make charcoal for cooking and no plan for reforestation.

They have no money to buy cooking oil to cook their tiny little portions of rice and beans. Who do you think should implement a reforestation program? I had a Haitian friend who was doing a project on a mountain there. I introduced him to some people from the UN Development Program who went to see the project. They insulted him to the core of his being by offering to buy it from him so that they could put the UN name on it.

The United States backed Duvalier pere et fils and his tom-tom m'ecoutes and gave them the arms and guns to keep the nation safe. OK those were the days of "he's a son of bitch but he's our son of a bitch" .... certainly we don't have any of that going on right now, right????


Duvalier's thugs kept the noose around the neck of the people for years and years so they had nothing nothing nothing --- you should see a Haitian market - one sells bottles, another sells bottle tops. There is no such thing as a trash heap in Haiti, everything is reused - Except of course in Port au Prince which is a stinking hell hole.

No US aid ever went to a resevoir project or a reforestation project. They sent a few idealistic kids with BA's in English lit down in the Peace Corp to eat rice and beans and get rid of some of their guilt. But hey, the Army Corps of Engineers who could actually get the job done, hell no!

Then Aristide was elected in the first democratic election ever - but he was a leftest so the Regan government decided to "withold its aid" untill they saw which direction the government was going. At the time, that aid accounted for more than 50% of the government's budget. So the remaining m'ecoutes took over. Then Clinton went in and restored Aristide. Then Arisitide started really talking lefty again, and had turned into a little dictator and was doing business with drug dealers (these last are just stories I've heard - but they continue to repeat). So US backed forces went in and took him out.

The Mellon Hospital is operated out of Yale University and God Bless them for that. And there are a multitude of missionary groups - all doing some good work, I am certain, but all under the assumption that these people somehow need the "white man's religion" . As if Haitian's didn't have a pipeline to God. Only God's own direct voice into one's soul could have you live in such conditions and have you still want to make such glorious art.

And I certainly thought that the Great Satan these days was the US. I primarily blame the French for Haiti. But I certainly charge the entire Northern Hemisphere with living off of wealth that was earned off the backs of forced labor from the Southern Hemisphere. (OK - those were broad strokes - I wasn't a history major - it was poly sci - and I don't know Asia from beans - it's really for me about European/US colonial policies)

Go ahead. I'd loved to be convinced that I am wrong.

Elizabeth
 

sweetdbt

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mountainannie said:
They have no money to buy cooking oil to cook their tiny little portions of rice and beans. Who do you think should implement a reforestation program? I had a Haitian friend who was doing a project on a mountain there. I introduced him to some people from the UN Development Program who went to see the project. They insulted him to the core of his being by offering to buy it from him so that they could put the UN name on it.

The United States backed Duvalier pere et fils and his tom-tom m'ecoutes and gave them the arms and guns to keep the nation safe. OK those were the days of "he's a son of bitch but he's our son of a bitch" .... certainly we don't have any of that going on right now, right????


Duvalier's thugs kept the noose around the neck of the people for years and years so they had nothing nothing nothing --- you should see a Haitian market - one sells bottles, another sells bottle tops. There is no such thing as a trash heap in Haiti, everything is reused - Except of course in Port au Prince which is a stinking hell hole.

No US aid ever went to a resevoir project or a reforestation project. They sent a few idealistic kids with BA's in English lit down in the Peace Corp to eat rice and beans and get rid of some of their guilt. But hey, the Army Corps of Engineers who could actually get the job done, hell no!

Then Aristide was elected in the first democratic election ever - but he was a leftest so the Regan government decided to "withold its aid" untill they saw which direction the government was going. At the time, that aid accounted for more than 50% of the government's budget. So the remaining m'ecoutes took over. Then Clinton went in and restored Aristide. Then Arisitide started really talking lefty again, and had turned into a little dictator and was doing business with drug dealers (these last are just stories I've heard - but they continue to repeat). So US backed forces went in and took him out.

The Mellon Hospital is operated out of Yale University and God Bless them for that. And there are a multitude of missionary groups - all doing some good work, I am certain, but all under the assumption that these people somehow need the "white man's religion" . As if Haitian's didn't have a pipeline to God. Only God's own direct voice into one's soul could have you live in such conditions and have you still want to make such glorious art.

And I certainly thought that the Great Satan these days was the US. I primarily blame the French for Haiti. But I certainly charge the entire Northern Hemisphere with living off of wealth that was earned off the backs of forced labor from the Southern Hemisphere. (OK - those were broad strokes - I wasn't a history major - it was poly sci - and I don't know Asia from beans - it's really for me about European/US colonial policies)

Go ahead. I'd loved to be convinced that I am wrong.

Elizabeth

You had me believing in your sincerity right up until that last statement. I've lived long enough and engaged in enough "discussions" to know that when someone says "I'd love to be convinced I'm wrong" you can be sure that what they mean is "I'm totally convinced I'm right and there's nothing in the world you can say to change my mind, but I'd love to argue with you about it."

I pass.

The only point I was making in my original response is that the destructive practices of the Hatian people themselves are largely responsible for their current ecological crisis. If you want to blame the "Northern hemisphere" because we didn't save them from themselves, that's your perogative. As far as making light of the good work done on behalf of the Hatian people by missionaries based on the fact that they have "alterior motives", I might buy that from someone who is living there and doing the same work they are doing with "pure motives". Soap box moralizing from Las Terrenas doesn't cut it.

Well, I said I wasn't going to do that, so I'll shut up now.

Enjoy Las Terrenas. It's a beautiful place. I want to visit it again on one of my upcoming trips.
 

mountainannie

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Guns not forests

My main issue is that the nations of the Northern Hemisphere have done a raging great business exporting guns and arms to the former colonial holdings. The British seemed to have exported a sense of order/law/justice - at least in India -Australia - Canada -US etc...... Now that the US has gone into the Empire business we might want to take a look at how to do it.

I think that after one brings people across an ocean in bondage, forces them into labor, then demands payment for their liberty in the form of deforestation, that it is the rightful claim of the Haitian people that their Island should be reforested.

I think this should be a project undertaken by the G-8 nations.

I don't think it is the fault of the Hatian people at all that they need to cut down what few trees remain in order to cook their food.

You have absolutely no idea what sort of work I am doing in Las Terrenas.

I have seen Christian missionaries who would not give food to hungry street people until after they listened to a sermon.
 
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Apple Annie, I was going to pass on this debate too, but....

Your arrogance is amazing. Do you honestly think you are the only foreigner in Haiti that actually cares about the Haitian people? Get real. I personally know peoplethat spent part of their summer vacations working as missionaries in Haiti because they actually cared enough to try and help.

I honestly don't know where to begin. I'll try to be brief.

First of all, you don't really know Haitian history very well. The Haitians did not cut down their forests and ship them off to France to pay the French back for their property losses during the slave revolt. Napolen(not personally, he sent his brother in law) invaded haiti some 10 years after the slave revolt started in order to regain the colony, he failed, the French left. The idemnity was negotiated after Napoleon was dead and gone. The debt was not paid in trees.

"The Haitians naturally adore me." I'm so glad that you have met a couple of people who are as impressed with you as you are with yourself.

Simply blaming everyone but the Haitians for their problems is wrong.

Haiti's biggest problem has been the string of corrupt, brutal , and worthless governments that have ruled over them. The Haitians also bankrupted themselves by repeatedly invading the Dominican Republic. These wars were devasting for the Dominican people. They contributed to the financial ruin of haiti. Not to mention the extravagent living of the various Hatian dictators.

"you don't know what I'm up to in Las Terrences." Well I certainly hope your not writing history books.
 
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mountainannie

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Point of View

joel pacheco said:
Apple Annie, I was going to pass on this debate too, but....

Your arrogance is amazing. Do you honestly think you are the only foreigner in Haiti that actually cares about the Haitian people? Get real. I personally know peoplethat spent part of their summer vacations working as missionaries in Haiti because they actually cared enough to try and help.

I honestly don't know where to begin. I'll try to be brief.

First of all, you don't really know Haitian history very well. The Haitians did not cut down their forests and ship them off to France to pay the French back for their property losses during the slave revolt. Napolen(not personally, he sent his brother in law) invaded haiti some 10 years after the slave revolt started in order to regain the colony, he failed, the French left. The idemnity was negotiated after Napoleon was dead and gone. The debt was not paid in trees.

"The Haitians naturally adore me." I'm so glad that you have met a couple of people who are as impressed with you as you are with yourself.

Simply blaming everyone but the Haitians for their problems is wrong.

Haiti's biggest problem has been the string of corrupt, brutal , and worthless governments that have ruled over them. The Haitians also bankrupted themselves by repeatedly invading the Dominican Republic. These wars were devasting for the Dominican people. They contributed to the financial ruin of haiti. Not to mention the extravagent living of the various Hatian dictators.

"you don't know what I'm up to in Las Terrences." Well I certainly hope your not writing history books.

What I learned about the Haitian people was that when the Arawak Indians saw the French bringing the Africans in chains they went up to the mountains - in Sauteurs - and leapt off - en mass - such was the horror to their eyes. Then on that side of the island there were no "Indios" left. What are we here in this hemisphere except immigrants?? Your ancestors, the Dominican Ancestors, did they not come here from Spain? Why do you have such a wall between the two halves of this little country? Here, when I hear a young black person speaking French, I always ask if s/he is from Haiti - if he is not, then he is very insulted. Why is that? The dictators of Haiti were supported by money from the US. As were the past dictators of Cuba. and perhaps even the last president of the DR.

How was the Haitian debt paid in? Do you even question that a debt was owed? Please understand I am not trying to be arrogant. The history of Haiti and the Dominican Republic does not play a big part in the educational system in the United States. What I have learned of the story, I have learned from Haitians. And there are always many points of view.