A bicycle route instead of Metro and against the construction of Atlantica?

Mr_DR · Mar 18, 2005

Is this Penalosa guy for real?

See, people like those are the people that are always against another country getting ahead.

"Bicycle route would help ease up on the crime rate because supposely criminals would be spending more time with their family members in the park..yeah right!!!

He states that crime cames came down 22 from 100,000.
by doing this when he was the Mator of Medellin?
How significant is 22 from 100,000

I think that a bicycle route would just give criminals better access to would be victims in these bike routes.

Yes, He was right when he said these criminals would be spending more time in these parks but only robbing people.

NALs · Mar 18, 2005

Is this Penalosa guy for real?

Well, there are all sorts of weirder things in this world...

See, people like those are the people that are always against another country getting ahead.

I thought of that too. I always wonder when foreigners protest some project if they are saying it with the Dominican's best interest or simply out of jealousy.

Don't get me wrong, Penalosa did pointed out a few interesting point, but criticizing the Autopista Las Americas for being by the sea is a little too much. I mean, that has to be the most beautiful introduction to the city of Santo Domingo any tourist probably has seen for any capital city in this world. Besides, that highway has been there since Trujillo's time, were we going to destroy it an rebuild another one away from the sea? I don't think so.

With the island, everybody is saying that the island is going to be "exclusive" for the few. The developers are planning the island to be an enjoyment for everybody. Sure, everybody will not be able to just walk into the private residences there, but they will be allowed to enjoy the new malecon to be built, a malecon that will promote walks by the sea in a clean and friendly atmosphere I might add. I'm sure the investors of Malecon Center would love to see their towers splashed all over the world once this project is completed. Afterall, you will not be able to take aerial or sea shots of the "new skyline" without the Malecon Center towers poping up. I'm sure alot more people will be interested in buying up the remaining spaces available there in apartments and shopping mall spaces and the island will become a major curiosity in the middle of the Caribbean that everybody and their mother will want to stop by, at least just to look at it.

"Bicycle route would help ease up on the crime rate because supposely criminals would be spending more time with their family members in the park..yeah right!!!

It would be more of a blessing for criminals. Imagine, they no longer have to spend money on gasoline on their pasolas or anything. Just push the victim off the bike and voila, a crime could not be any easier.

The last time I checked, the Miradores parks are wonderful places to ride a bike, especially when they shut down the avenue that cuts through Mirador del Sur.

He states that crime cames came down 22 from 100,000.
by doing this when he was the Mator of Medellin?
How significant is 22 from 100,000

If we should be copying Medellin then I'm scared. My my my...

I think that a bicycle route would just give criminals better access to would be victims in these bike routes.

I know.

Yes, He was right when he said these criminals would be spending more time in these parks but only robbing people.

Maybe you should send a letter to local newspapers and try to get your opinion going? This will make a fascinating debate in most homes, guaranteed.

Penalosa probably had good intentions when he made his remarks, but that was nothing more than good intentioned words. The island will get built, will get the attention, will become a major attraction in it self and businesses in this city (especially along the coast and in the Colonial Zone) will benefit tremendously from the extra tourist flow.

Unfortunately, the Metro will be built.

This reminds me, he stated that Medellins' metro only services 300,000 while Bogota's buses service alot more. I think Bogota is much bigger than Medellin in population and land area.

Maybe that has something to do with it? Just a thought.

I find Santo Domingo to be better than either Medellin or Bogota. Just my thought, but those cities are just ough... No offense to anyone.

FuegoAzul21 · Mar 18, 2005

I ve never been to La Capital (wierd, right ?),But i ve heard alot of good and bad things about it .Now, many of you might think of this guy as a hater and doesnt wanna see SD succeed .However , it could be vice versa .What if he is just warning the congress on the negative effects it can have and showing them how SD could solve its problem .Maybe he doesnt want them to make the same mistake others have made. It also could be that he is looking at it in a way that government can save alot of money .Then again he could be full of crap and not want SD to have a metro becuase he knows that SD will have better luck with it then some other large cities . Im not saying this niether do i beleive it but it it a possibility. I just hope that whatever decision they make, is the best one.

NotLurking · Mar 19, 2005

Maybe he is pitching his idealistic views to insure P. T. Barnum's prophecy is fulfilled! Just think of how idealistic and poetic you would be for say a 5% consulting fee on that mammoth of a project. For less than 2% of the whole ball of wax I'll become a smooth tongue devil too. In fact, for 0.01% commission on a project of this magnitude ya can slap me 'round and call me Susan! Things that make you go hmmm....

NotLurking

gringito · Mar 19, 2005

Hey Susan...

NotLurking said:
Maybe he is pitching his idealistic views to insure P. T. Barnum's prophecy is fulfilled! Just think of how idealistic and poetic you would be for say a 5% consulting fee on that mammoth of a project. For less than 2% of the whole ball of wax I'll become a smooth tongue devil too. In fact, for 0.01% commission on a project of this magnitude ya can slap me 'round and call me Susan! Things that make you go hmmm....

NotLurking

Maybe we should partner with Penalosa in a bicycle dealership here. With the money from the proposed Metro budget we could sell a bike to every man, woman and child in SD and 4 bikes to every member of the Congress. Can you imagine the bicycle thiefs licking their chops over the very idea? I might start importing bicycle locks from China tomorrow just to get a jump on things, hehe.

Mr_DR · Mar 19, 2005

Nal0whs said:
Well, there are all sorts of weirder things in this world...

I thought of that too. I always wonder when foreigners protest some project if they are saying it with the Dominican's best interest or simply out of jealousy.

Don't get me wrong, Penalosa did pointed out a few interesting point, but criticizing the Autopista Las Americas for being by the sea is a little too much. I mean, that has to be the most beautiful introduction to the city of Santo Domingo any tourist probably has seen for any capital city in this world. Besides, that highway has been there since Trujillo's time, were we going to destroy it an rebuild another one away from the sea? I don't think so.

With the island, everybody is saying that the island is going to be "exclusive" for the few. The developers are planning the island to be an enjoyment for everybody. Sure, everybody will not be able to just walk into the private residences there, but they will be allowed to enjoy the new malecon to be built, a malecon that will promote walks by the sea in a clean and friendly atmosphere I might add. I'm sure the investors of Malecon Center would love to see their towers splashed all over the world once this project is completed. Afterall, you will not be able to take aerial or sea shots of the "new skyline" without the Malecon Center towers poping up. I'm sure alot more people will be interested in buying up the remaining spaces available there in apartments and shopping mall spaces and the island will become a major curiosity in the middle of the Caribbean that everybody and their mother will want to stop by, at least just to look at it.

It would be more of a blessing for criminals. Imagine, they no longer have to spend money on gasoline on their pasolas or anything. Just push the victim off the bike and voila, a crime could not be any easier.

The last time I checked, the Miradores parks are wonderful places to ride a bike, especially when they shut down the avenue that cuts through Mirador del Sur.

If we should be copying Medellin then I'm scared. My my my...

I know.

Maybe you should send a letter to local newspapers and try to get your opinion going? This will make a fascinating debate in most homes, guaranteed.

Penalosa probably had good intentions when he made his remarks, but that was nothing more than good intentioned words. The island will get built, will get the attention, will become a major attraction in it self and businesses in this city (especially along the coast and in the Colonial Zone) will benefit tremendously from the extra tourist flow.

Unfortunately, the Metro will be built.

This reminds me, he stated that Medellins' metro only services 300,000 while Bogota's buses service alot more. I think Bogota is much bigger than Medellin in population and land area.

Maybe that has something to do with it? Just a thought.

I find Santo Domingo to be better than either Medellin or Bogota. Just my thought, but those cities are just ough... No offense to anyone.

Now i see why some countries never get ahead......It is because of people like him influencing others leaders as a form to always keep them down.

I bet if these investors were to do this in Colombia he would not oppose at all.

These project is going to lauch DR into a whole different ball park, it is gonna create many jobs for the locals and it is gonna be a beautiful view no matter what he sais. Arriva con los projectos.

NALs · Mar 19, 2005

Mr_DR said:
Now i see why some countries never get ahead......It is because of people like him influencing others leaders as a form to always keep them down.

I bet if these investors were to do this in Colombia he would not oppose at all.

These project is going to lauch DR into a whole different ball park, it is gonna create many jobs for the locals and it is gonna be a beautiful view no matter what he sais. Arriva con los projectos.

That's the point!

Most other projects (even the Faro A Colon) have succeeded beyond their expectations.

All the resorts and attractions made us number one tourist destination.

All the new shops make us the largest economy in Central America/Caribbean.

All the new investments are leaping us into modernity and forward.

Any country in the world would love that, but the DR is living proof of that.

Now, if we want to devoid any investment, all we have to do is look at Haiti. That is what a country with near 0 foreign investment looks like.

It's not a pretty situation to be in. Let the projects begin (the privately founded projects at least)!

Mr_DR · Mar 20, 2005

Nal0whs said:
That's the point!

Most other projects (even the Faro A Colon) have succeeded beyond their expectations.

All the resorts and attractions made us number one tourist destination.

All the new shops make us the largest economy in Central America/Caribbean.

All the new investments are leaping us into modernity and forward.

Any country in the world would love that, but the DR is living proof of that.

Now, if we want to devoid any investment, all we have to do is look at Haiti. That is what a country with near 0 foreign investment looks like.

It's not a pretty situation to be in. Let the projects begin (the privately founded projects at least)!

I agree with you 100% on that.

I wonder how come he did not propose more bicycle routes when they were thinking about about building their metro system in Medellin?

I think he was high on cocaine when his turn came to speak,

Can you imagine? the country is here trying to resolve it's traffic issues and invite this guy to the conference because of his expertise and when it is his turn to open his mouth the first thing he sais is "Build more parks and bicycle routes"

I can see his idea of a cosmopolitan SD
People taxiing on tricycles, people that have never set foot on a bike (dando bandazos) trying to get to work, a husband on his bike with his pregnant wife on their rushing to the hospital, or a complete family hanging on a bicycle to a picnic location which i don't know how he has not seeing this happening yet but through a little more modernized way that is called "pasola"

Was he too stoned not to see the buzzings of the pasolas and the motoconchos when passing through which still has not solve the problem ?
Now how much more effective can bicycles be?

He would not even mention buiding special pasola/motoconchos routes instead of bicycle routes because that to him is still too modern for us.
He wants to see a 16th century Italy bicycle mode of tranportation style in the DR.

I am surprised he did not mention roller skates as a transportation solution instead.

Naufrago · Mar 20, 2005

As a person who is already walking around SD as much as possible, I can attest that the problem is not the 3 foot wide sidewalks. Unlike NYC there is no sidewalk congestion here. The problem here is the glaring Sun. What we need is more shade. More trees lining the pathways, or overhangs, or a giant umbrella to cover the city. A simple 3 mile walk in the midday sun will fry you. I always try to plan my route according to the shade factor. But when I need to cross the city center, the options are limited.

Chirimoya · Mar 20, 2005

In hot Spanish cities like Seville where summer temperatures routinely exceed 40?C (well over 100?F) they hang tarps across some streets from roof to roof to add to the shade. Simple but effective.

Some pedestrianised shopping streets with outdoor cafes even have 'exterior air-conditioning' - but that is a more expensive solution.

People in Spain and Italy have preserved the tradition of the evening 'paseo' or 'passeggiata' despite the summer heat and the modernisation their countries have experienced. Pity their descendants on this side of the Atlantic seem to have abandoned this tradition.

Mr_DR · Mar 20, 2005

Chirimoya said:
In hot Spanish cities like Seville where summer temperatures routinely exceed 40?C (well over 100?F) they hang tarps across some streets from roof to roof to add to the shade. Simple but effective.

Some pedestrianised shopping streets with outdoor cafes even have 'exterior air-conditioning' - but that is a more expensive solution.

People in Spain and Italy have preserved the tradition of the evening 'paseo' or 'passeggiata' despite the summer heat and the modernisation their countries have experienced. Pity their descendants on this side of the Atlantic seem to have abandoned this tradition.

Yes and that is all good

Tradition can be kept and they can build more bicycles routes but you can't resolve think that the traffic problem would end by having more parks and bicycle routes.
Those parks and routes are always nice to enjoy them on your off duty relaxing time.

andrea9k · Mar 21, 2005

There are too many uncomplete projects and unsolved problems in this country to add 2 white elephants...

If the DR can still get some more loans... fresh $$$... why not putting the last stones/fixing some of them?

I dont see dominican people riding bikes around the city as a transportation vehicle, they are too "comparones" for that. It would take a big change in their mind settings. The first thing most dominicans think when get some money is buying their first car or changing the car they have. Even before owning a home. They love to be seen riding a car. I ask myself who will ride the Metro. I seriously doubt they will drop the car idea for a Metro. Will the Metro have its own power source? I wouldn't like to be underground on summer, in the middle of nowhere without power! If the electricity problem is not solved I am not going in an underground Metro no freakn way!

So, seems to me traffic problems will be the same with or without a Metro. Oh no, with a Metro, the DR will have a new debt plus a regular spend in subsidizing the Metro tickets.

Maybe it would be cheaper to control what cars can go out according to their car plates numbers. It has proven to be succesful in some latin american cities. The investment would be, better police to enforce this, and more public buses. But then again, who is going to respect such a measure... a couple responsible expats and dominicans. But it can be a good income for the city/government if they have a good bunch of good cops that fine the irresponsible people.

I can be optimistic in my pesimistic views

About Atlantica... that is a very nice dream... just make sure you dont wake up in the middle of it and find yourself with the abandoned bones of a big mammoth in front of our sweet malecon... that would be TERRIBLE. I think I saw something like that in Santiago. An abandoned unfinished big building... I hope they finished it...

time to go to bed

Jess

Mr_DR · Mar 21, 2005

andrea9k said:
There are too many uncomplete projects and unsolved problems in this country to add 2 white elephants...

If the DR can still get some more loans... fresh $$$... why not putting the last stones/fixing some of them?

I dont see dominican people riding bikes around the city as a transportation vehicle, they are too "comparones" for that. It would take a big change in their mind settings. The first thing most dominicans think when get some money is buying their first car or changing the car they have. Even before owning a home. They love to be seen riding a car. I ask myself who will ride the Metro. I seriously doubt they will drop the car idea for a Metro. Will the Metro have its own power source? I wouldn't like to be underground on summer, in the middle of nowhere without power! If the electricity problem is not solved I am not going in an underground Metro no freakn way!

So, seems to me traffic problems will be the same with or without a Metro. Oh no, with a Metro, the DR will have a new debt plus a regular spend in subsidizing the Metro tickets.

Maybe it would be cheaper to control what cars can go out according to their car plates numbers. It has proven to be succesful in some latin american cities. The investment would be, better police to enforce this, and more public buses. But then again, who is going to respect such a measure... a couple responsible expats and dominicans. But it can be a good income for the city/government if they have a good bunch of good cops that fine the irresponsible people.

I can be optimistic in my pesimistic views

About Atlantica... that is a very nice dream... just make sure you dont wake up in the middle of it and find yourself with the abandoned bones of a big mammoth in front of our sweet malecon... that would be TERRIBLE. I think I saw something like that in Santiago. An abandoned unfinished big building... I hope they finished it...

time to go to bed

Jess

I don't agree with you 100%

I know that the DR is not rich enough to support such costly metro project, but i do see dominicans using it if it does gets built. I am very sure that there are many dominicans that love to show off their vehicles, but you also have some responsible dominicans that have their vehicles too and have to commute to work on a daily basis that would love to take a break from all the traffic headaches, to include ruthless drivers, the waste of time and the so ever high gasoline prices. Especially if it would be able to save them money.

And to answer your question about the metro and its energy; It will be self electricity generated.

Now the Atlantica project is not a dream at all because it is not a government or a dominicanyork drug dealer project that would only be advanced while the interested parties are in power or while the drug dealer keeps himself from getting killed or put in jail. These are private investors that are very serious about their investments and know what they are doing.

Chirimoya · Mar 21, 2005

andrea9k said:
There are too many uncomplete projects and unsolved problems in this country to add 2 white elephants...

That's the only word for it.

Maybe it would be cheaper to control what cars can go out according to their car plates numbers. It has proven to be succesful in some latin american cities. The investment would be, better police to enforce this, and more public buses. But then again, who is going to respect such a measure... a couple responsible expats and dominicans. But it can be a good income for the city/government if they have a good bunch of good cops that fine the irresponsible people.

This has been tried, as you say, but people find ways to get round it. If they are wealthy enough, they buy a second car, so you end up with more cars on the road.

A scheme that has worked well, against all expectations and many prophecies of doom, is in central London, where you have to buy a permit to be allowed access to the central part of the city. It relies on scanners 'reading' the car number plate as you pass through the boundary. It is technologically complex and fairly expensive so probably not applicable here either.

DES · Mar 21, 2005

Mr_DR said:
Is this Penalosa guy for real?

See, people like those are the people that are always against another country getting ahead.

"Bicycle route would help ease up on the crime rate because supposely criminals would be spending more time with their family members in the park..yeah right!!!

He states that crime cames came down 22 from 100,000.
by doing this when he was the Mator of Medellin?
How significant is 22 from 100,000

Actually, I don't think he's trying to put down or hold back the DR. Remember, he's running for President of Colombia; by speaking to an assembly/conference in the capital of another country, he builds up his standing in his own. Naturally, he will use that forum to tout things he has done as mayor of Bogota (not Medellin), to further 'prove' that he is a visionary leader.

I viewed his remarks as mostly Colombian politics, and found the thread in the environment forum hailing him as the savior of SD quite amusing.

DRsScarface · Mar 21, 2005

Don't Forget

Don't forget that a soon as those new bikes make it to the public/the masses, there are going to be alot of bikes for sale in Santo Domingo and Dominican Republic. People are going to sell the bikes to buy other things and the traffic problem will still be there.

I wonder why they always leave out public buses out of talks when they are discussing transportation problems. The big MTA buses in NYC seem to work. I think it's about time we remove those rotted old "voladora" type buses out of Dominican streets. It's dangerous to have people hanging out of buses with no doors.

Chirimoya · Mar 21, 2005

In reply to post #15

I'm always happy to amuse, although it was not my intention in that thread.

Pe?alosa was not being hailed as the 'saviour of the DR'. His speech was recognised by most posters in that thread as a valuable injection into the debate that's going on here in Santo Domingo about the options for the city's future. P's perspective, based on real achievements, not wishful thinking, provides a breath of fresh air. The solutions being proposed up till now are yesterday's answers to today's problems. I believe that his approach is the only way forward for any city, if people - not smoke-belching tin boxes - are put first.

I'm sure that he was blowing his own trumpet to a certain extent, but I hardly think that a speech in the DR will have much impact on his electoral fortunes in Colombia.

Chirimoya · Mar 21, 2005

DRsScarface said:
I wonder why they always leave out public buses out of talks when they are discussing transportation problems. The big MTA buses in NYC seem to work. I think it's about time we remove those rotted old "voladora" type buses out of Dominican streets. It's dangerous to have people hanging out of buses with no doors.

Who's leaving out public buses? Improving the bus service is a crucial and inexpensive ingredient in the recipe for the city's transport solutions. Keith and many others have made a reference to this. One of the problems is, that the authorities have not got the political courage to tackle the transport unions - and this is essential if the buses are to make a difference. They didn't do it when the much-praised OMSA buses were introduced, and they won't do it if and when the Metro is built. So the chaos and madness of all those conchos and voladoras will continue.

DES · Mar 22, 2005

Chirimoya said:
P's perspective, based on real achievements, not wishful thinking, provides a breath of fresh air. The solutions being proposed up till now are yesterday's answers to today's problems. I believe that his approach is the only way forward for any city, if people - not smoke-belching tin boxes - are put first.

I'm sure that he was blowing his own trumpet to a certain extent, but I hardly think that a speech in the DR will have much impact on his electoral fortunes in Colombia.

"Thinking outside the box" is almost always helpful in finding solutions to problems. If Pe?alosa's solutions from Bogota help arrive at a solution for SD, great. Don't downplay, however, the likelihood that a regional figure with national ambition may, just may, put his remarks in context of what best serves him, not those he addresses. Also don't downplay the fact that his invitation and appearance in another country's capital city guarantee large amounts of airtime in the Colombian national press, including areas where he does not have a following.

As to the specifics, I feel that while it would certainly make any city more livable to have large swaths of green space as well as pocket parks and bike paths, there will be several potentially sever consequences. One is economic, i.e. what to do with the taxi drivers, motoconcho drivers, etc. If they are suddenly unemployed that could lead to civil unrest and increases in criminal activity. Another is the lack of maintenance, especially grounds cleanup. Perhaps the displaced drivers could be conscripted into a city wide litter patrol? As another poster has pointed out, what will be done with the vehicles that are treasured as symbols of affluence? If they suddenly become unusable, their value declines, causing more distress among the populace. If people flood the market selling these vehicles the value drops even more, further depressing the economy, or at least the finances of those doing the selling. Where would the land for the parks, bikeways, lowrise buildings proposed by Pe?alosa come from? Would it be seized from landowners by the government? Would the owners be properly compensated? Lastly, for the sake of brevity, what of the transportation system needed by the residents, to be used when biking is not an option. Pe?alosa's Transmileneo bus system, while cheaper than the metro, will still require hundreds of millions of pesos.
These questions all need to be answered before declaring Pe?alosa to have found "the only way forward for any city"

stewart · Mar 22, 2005

DES said:
"Thinking outside the box" is almost always helpful in finding solutions to problems. If Pe?alosa's solutions from Bogota help arrive at a solution for SD, great. Don't downplay, however, the likelihood that a regional figure with national ambition may, just may, put his remarks in context of what best serves him, not those he addresses. Also don't downplay the fact that his invitation and appearance in another country's capital city guarantee large amounts of airtime in the Colombian national press, including areas where he does not have a following.

As to the specifics, I feel that while it would certainly make any city more livable to have large swaths of green space as well as pocket parks and bike paths, there will be several potentially sever consequences. One is economic, i.e. what to do with the taxi drivers, motoconcho drivers, etc. If they are suddenly unemployed that could lead to civil unrest and increases in criminal activity. Another is the lack of maintenance, especially grounds cleanup. Perhaps the displaced drivers could be conscripted into a city wide litter patrol? As another poster has pointed out, what will be done with the vehicles that are treasured as symbols of affluence? If they suddenly become unusable, their value declines, causing more distress among the populace. If people flood the market selling these vehicles the value drops even more, further depressing the economy, or at least the finances of those doing the selling. Where would the land for the parks, bikeways, lowrise buildings proposed by Pe?alosa come from? Would it be seized from landowners by the government? Would the owners be properly compensated? Lastly, for the sake of brevity, what of the transportation system needed by the residents, to be used when biking is not an option. Pe?alosa's Transmileneo bus system, while cheaper than the metro, will still require hundreds of millions of pesos.
These questions all need to be answered before declaring Pe?alosa to have found "the only way forward for any city"

I don't see your scenario ever happening in Dominican society. What you are talking about is a major shift in the way the average person gets from point A to point B. Think of an average, low income person in SD. We all know that the upper income poeple will never abandon the yipetas for a bike or bus. And there are more poor poeple than middle class. So they will be most affected. They aren't going to ride bikes. If there is a good metro bus system, how are they going to get to the bus stop? With the publico car system in place in Santiago now (the place I am more familiar with), you can almost literally walk our your front door anywhere in Santiago and get one car to the next to the next til you reach your destination. No walking involved. It's easy and cheap.
If the moto conchos are done away with, it would pop up again under the radar. But will still be used en masse.
Penalosa's ideas, while great, will never cause a major change in the way Dominicans transport themselves around town. They will all tell you it's too hot to ride a bike or walk any distance other than to the colmado.

A bicycle route instead of Metro and against the construction of Atlantica?

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