Debt Relief

Psychologically I am real conflicted about this thing happening No, seriously I am... On the one hand I'm true "liberal", "treehugger", "save the whales" kind of ecstatic.. On the other, I can only think that this is such a two-edged sword.

For the DR, the ones who made the loans are still alive and kicking, so I cannot think that debt forgiveness here can be justified under the 'spurious' clause. For some countries, it may truly level the playing field but not much more than that. A level playing field does not necessarily prepare the new teams for actually playing on it... Honduras never fully recovered after some hurricane (was it Mitch) destroyed coffee and other plantations, so, for Honduras some good could come out of this. I miss Haiti on the list but can only think that they're so far down the slippery slide that not even debt forgiveness applies to them.

Strangely for the lenders (axis of the root of all evil), this is a very good thing. With one stroke of the pen, their dismal record is improved and even shot into the stratosphere of 'do-gooding'. "Borrow from us, we grant debt-forgiveness!" What does this message do to some young and growing quasi-dictator with his eyes on the big slice of the pie down the road.

I just hope against hope in the minimum, that some of the poor and struggling humanity that this is intended to help, actually gets helped. Dare we have a bigger hope and trust the humanity has developed some social consciousness?

Anyone want to place bets on which 'forgiven' country is going to get to the bank first to ask for new loans? I think the world bank and IMF recruited extra staff for Monday to deal with the overwhelming amount of new business coming in.

I think that the Dominican Republic is one of the richest countries their is in the hemisphere we have many things like oil, gold, silver, coffee, cocoa etc etc Tourism is a great part of the Dominican Republic. No matter from what political party the president is they are going to steal and go and leave the bargain on the next president ehich is going to do the exact same thing and just fill up their pockets. It would have been nice if they would have chosen the Dominican Republic for this grant but they are not going to give to a country which is full of political LADRONES.

it's a set up...or is it 'set-up', or 'setup'?

The DR is YARDS ahead of Honduras and Nicaragua.

Yards?

must be BACK YARDS

To your enquiring minds----

You might give thought as to the AMOUNTS that have thus far been paid by those debtor countries. If you put a sharp pencil to the figures of the ORIGINAL loans, retire the INTEREST paid on those loans and apply that figure to the original principals, you might find that the ORIGINAL amounts of principal have been retired and what is REALLY being forgiven is the INTEREST on those original principals.

I have no figures to back up my statement, just speculating. It is significant that the original loans carried a hefty interest rate due to the risks being present. Thus, i think that the interest paid was applied to the original principals and that the bank/lending agencies really haven't suffered as they would like for us to believe.

I don't think anyone has really lost anything in this smoke screen maneuver.

Texas Bill

Mirador said:

must be BACK YARDS

Click to expand...

Kilometers then. Or parsecs.

If you compare many things about the country, such as level of happiness, life expectancy, economic growth, GDP, GDP per capita, unemployment levels (which are on the lower end of the moderate level, especially when compared to the poorest countries which have unemployment in the 60s, 70s, even 80%! Yes, its that unbelievable, and we have ours between 15% to 20% depending on the source) and a host of other factors, it becomes clear that the DR is ahead of a good chunck of the global crowd.

In fact, the DR is ahead of tiny countries like Haiti, Cuba, and yes, Honduras, but also of gigantic countries like China, India, and Russia. All in all, 67 countries around the world are worst off than the DR, or 67% of the world's population lives in worst average conditions than the Dominicans and also have less prospects for upward mobility, etc. Despite the fact that many people in this country remain in the same economic position they were born in, in the last decade or so (despite the last 4 or so years) the Dominican middle class has grown dramatically and the poor class has been declining, though lately the poor class has been leveling because of the influx of impoverished illegal immigrants.

The problem with the DR is not the lack of money, but priorities. I will go as far as saying that most Dominicans would be much better off if they would prioritize their spending much more efficiently. Notice how full the bars and nightclubs are across the island, even in the middle of a crisis. Hmm, seems that there is always money for drinking and partying. The same goes for the government, the lack of priorities is the issue. Many countries around the world have the problem of not enough money, we are not in that situation.

Also, despite the optimistic facts, the reality is that the entire country is not covered in gold because money does not flows evenly here. This is evident in the infrastructure and economic activity around the country. Many areas (like the Capital, Santiago, tourist zones) are relatively prosperous with pockets of real wealth while other areas of the country have been neglected.

Then again, Santo Domingo and Santiago are home to half the country's population and much of the other half lives in the Cibao valley and along the northern and Caribbean coasts. Inequality is a feature of the landscape, but wealth does trickle down with time. Think of this as what I call the Mercedes Benz Trickle. Initially, the rich buys the brand new Mercedes Sedan. After a year or so, the rich resells the car and a less rich person will buy it and enjoy the same luxury. After a few years, the car has been sold and resold, each time going down the economic latter. Eventually that Mercedes will reach a poor guy.

It's true that by that time, the Mercedes will be worn down and in less than perfect shape, but a Mercedes is a Mercedes and that poor guy will be riding a car rather than donkey and in that fact, everybody's standard of living increased. Also, in terms of real estate, the rich builds mansions that with the years (as neighborhood changes, etc) the mansion will be subdivided into smaller apartments for less affluent peoples, etc. Trickle down happens with time.

I don't think there is anybody in their right mind (well, an educated person at the very least) will deny that the DR is much wealthier today than it was in 1980s or 1950s or 1821!

There are more cars, more apartments, more houses, more asphalted miles of road, more airports, more jobs, more income, more stores, more reliable transportation, better technology, more graduating students, more schools, more universities than ever seen in this country. In fact, there is more of everything in this country.

The average poor Dominican lives in conditions that in much of the time Humans have been on earth would be considered luxurious. Of course, those conditions are not luxurious today, but they sure would have been in the time of Christ or during the middle ages, etc.

The world is richer today, we are richer today thanever. Sometimes, after seeing the grim headlines, and hearing the stories, and seeing the yolas on TV its hard to realize that most people live in conditions that are simply better. Humanity has never had as good. In some countries its better than others, but on average, humanity is richer.

Anyways, those are my 2 long cents.

Edited to add:

All economic and social development data of the DR resembles more a middle income country more than a poor country. As such, technically and officially, the DR is not a poor country, but a middle income country.

On another note, if Haiti gets its debt reduced or eliminated, that would be good for us, but even better for the Haitians. The government will most likely get back into debt and a good chunck will most likely vanish, but whatever amount is invested into Haiti is a good amount for the most desperate country outside of Africa.

trick, trick, trickle-a-dee! supply-side economist you see!

Trickling down with time?

trick, trick, crock,
drip, drip, dribble,
plash, plash, splash,
goes the water clock

spirtle, spirtle, splatter,
gurgle, gurgle, gargle,
by the time I get my Mercedes?
I?ll be dead

To NalOws-----

Sorry pal, but I can't subscribe to your "trickle-down" philosophy.
To begin with, such a scenario is completely out of focus with reality.

The reality is that since the early daysof your country (and mine) the economic climate has favored those with the means to expand their financial base. They have done exactly that and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

Virtually none of that wealth has "trickled-down". The exception would be where those people actually invest capital in an industry, pay a reasonable wage (unlike here) and provide for the health and welfare of their constituents in the form of medical insurance/company clinics/hospitals and a livable retirement.
Selling one's mercedes doesn't qualify, in my estimation, as a "trickle-down" item. Too many other automobiles in the "used car" category. I do understand your analogy, but it won't fish. The only "trickle-down" wealth that will be significant is as described above and the DR wealthy just don't qualify.

And, have you traveled about lately in that glorious city of Santo Domingo?
The "pockets" of destitution that I observed last Friday convinced me that your beloved Lionel isn't really doing anything to alleviate such. The "creek bottoms" were filled with ramshackle hovels that no self respecting Dominican should occupy voluntarily.Yes, i know, it isn't the governments fault...BS, the govt just closes a blind eye to such deplorable conditions of economic degradation and goes it's merry way of building new edificiios to house the blood-suckers and ineffectual employees.

I think the country was better off in the 1600-1700's with a lot of the population surviving by subsistance farming (something not seen today...wonder why?) and ranching.

Your allusion is, again, the product of self-delusion in the face of facts.

Ask yourself the whys of the recovery from the Mejia administration debacles.
The taxes have been raised to a point of beggering the population. Such has eliminated the meager gains made through wages. In one fell swoop the legislative bodies wiped out the cushion between destitution and "just getting along" for the common man.

You would be wise to make certain that the prosperity you allude to is REAL and not just allusionary (giving the "appearance" of prosperity instead of having REAL prosperity).

Paved roads? Give me a break!!! Have you driven over any roads not main thorofares lately?? I seriously doubt it! The roads in this country are in deplorable shape and continue to go downhill from there.

How can you sit in your house, behind your concrete block barrier and say the things you say. You really don't know what's going on at your own front door. Best you come in out of the shade of your veranda and see just what is happening to your people.

Yes, they frequent the bars and dancehalls, sollicit the prostitutes, etc. But that is symptomatic of the devistating facts of life facing them. Such activity is really an escape mechanism used by the poor worldwide to keep their sanity.

You might be able to convince the uneducated masses that they live in a prosperous environment through your dialogue, but, old son, I know your full of it, so why do you keep on telling the same thing over and over and over. You're a broken record.


Texas Bill

The one and only thing one can do for a post like TexasBill just posted.... is to applaud. Applause! Applause!. Another curtain call TB... Well done! Now I just hope someone reads!

Chris said:

The one and only thing one can do for a post like TexasBill just posted.... is to applaud. Applause! Applause!. Another curtain call TB... Well done! Now I just hope someone reads!

Click to expand...

Thanks, Chris....

I know all I wrote was vitrolic, but just couldn't help myself.

I just get sick and tired of fools and their nonsensical meanderings that have no substance to them.

Take Care.

Texas Bill

Tb - I Bow Down To You!

I think some people on this board do actually need to be whipped back to the real world, so bring on the truth. But some people just won't/can't read or think

Nals - TB is right, cut the crap!

The DR did record one of the fastest growing economies between 1990 & 2001 but recorded the lowest social spending per capita this side of the hemisphere, worse than Jamaica, Hondurus and Nicaragua. This economic growth was almost negated in the last two years. Quoting a study by columbia University on how DR is doing on achieving Millenium Development Goals. 10 per cent of the pop enjoy over 40% of the GDP while 28% Dominicans live in extreme poverty - under a dollar a day i.e. under 28 pesos a day.

Nals, go blame it on the illegal immigrants who obviously keep you awake 24 7. Soon you will be carrying a machete to hunt them down.......

DR can do better if as TB said, some people were not openly bent on lining their pockets. It does not need debt relief.

Debt relief is complicated politics. But I agree with the view that the WB and IMF need serious reforms and the so called G8 can force governments to reduce corruptions if they wanted to. Problem is, they benefit from corruption in third world countries...........Don't get me started....

As for Bono, he is a good bloke with the right attitude.

TB, with all the respects, get yourself a copy of The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith (aka, the brainchild behind market capitalism) and read it carefully. Apply what you read to modern DR compared to old DR.

Only after reading this book can anyone understand the notion behind free market capitalism.

May I remind everyone that there is nobody in this island that wants to live like in the 1700s. The 1700s was a time of misery for most people. It's wonderful to think of those times as "ideal", but the reality is that the 1700s was no walk in the park.

Let's see...

For one, you had to worry about diseases that are not existant today, such as small pox. In order to go from one end of the country to another, one had to put aside at least a good 4 to 5 days, maybe even more for oneway. Paved roads did not exist, the fastest mode of transportation was the horse carriage, which tended to break several times along the unimproved earth they moved along at speeds slightly faster than the average running speed of any human. Most people lived in huts with roofs made of palm thatch, dirt floors. Such living conditions can't compare to the much better tin roofs and cement floors. The "Fogon" can't be compared to the stove.

The constant threat of invasions from neighboring colonies and powerful European empires was gargantoum. The threat of pirates along the coast was unberable and very real. The countryside was ruled by small armies controlled by Peninsulares and/or other European colonialists. In fact, the loyalty between the colonialist in his ranch with his subjects was akin to the relationship between the nobles and the knights in the middle ages.

Most children born died before they even reached their first year of life. Extremely high number of women died while giving birth. Women, blacks, and mulattos were restricted of their power and respects. The most simplest of commodities that we all take for granted today was extremely hard to find.

Sanitation was non-existent anywhere. Electricity was not even in the dreams of people. The average person died while still in their 20s, today most people here live to around their mid 60s to low 70s on average. The average intake of daily calories is much greater today than in the 1700s and the average Dominican is taller today than they were in the 1700s, thanks to the improved diet and evident in some of the oldest buildings in the Zona Colonial where today one has to watch one's head while passing through a low colonial doorway.

The list goes on and on. One thing about humanity is that they never appreciate what they have. We have come a long way and it must be recognized. Afterall, in the middle of the industrial revolution, in England the media sources (mostly newspapers) were constantly claiming that England was going backwards, that it was going from bad to worst, that the end of British civilization was eminent, this was in the middle of the industrial revolution. This was noted in Adam Smiths Wealth of Nations book, which was first printed in the late 1700s or 1800s (not sure which, but one of the two centuries).

More people have never had it so good. 800,000 Dominicans are rich. Around 3 million are middle class. Of the 4 million poor, roughly half get remittances from abroad. Most babies born actually live well beyond their first birthday, the lot of diseases is extremely low compared to what used to be. The economy is growing at rates never seen since the 1500s. Unemployment is moderately low, traveling across the country is a whole lot easier today thanks to the road networks which are far superior to what existed in the 1700s and thanks to those wealthier people who once bought the many used cars you see today being driven by the less affluent people of this country. Afterall, the alternative would be a burro. Also, the level of education being taught today at the sixth grade, far surpases the level of education of the same grade in the 1700s. In fact, most people never even started school in those times.

Gazcue today is home to scores of middle class people, many of whom live and/or work in homes that in the 1950s belonged to the richest of the rich. Because of the rich's desire to be "up to date" in living standards, powerlines were put in place for that necessitated juice of modern life to reach the homes of the rich. Along the way, the middle class and poor hooked themselves up to the lines aswell. The many old and used television sets found in many lower income homes across this country, once belonged to the wealthy who bought the latest most fashionable goods. The list goes on and on. The advancements of the upper classes lifts the living standards of the society in general over the years. The list goes on and on.

In any case, get yourself a copy of The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith. A much more clearer, obvious, and indulgent expression of how market capitalism works does not exist, besides The Wealth of Nations.

I'll leave this for everyone to ponder upon:

Everybody has an economic opinion, but few actually know how it works, so what good are the economic opinions if they are based on anything other than economic theory?

Texas Bill said:

Sorry pal, but I can't subscribe to your "trickle-down" philosophy.
To begin with, such a scenario is completely out of focus with reality.

The reality is that since the early daysof your country (and mine) the economic climate has favored those with the means to expand their financial base. They have done exactly that and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

Virtually none of that wealth has "trickled-down". The exception would be where those people actually invest capital in an industry, pay a reasonable wage (unlike here) and provide for the health and welfare of their constituents in the form of medical insurance/company clinics/hospitals and a livable retirement.
Selling one's mercedes doesn't qualify, in my estimation, as a "trickle-down" item. Too many other automobiles in the "used car" category. I do understand your analogy, but it won't fish. The only "trickle-down" wealth that will be significant is as described above and the DR wealthy just don't qualify.

And, have you traveled about lately in that glorious city of Santo Domingo?
The "pockets" of destitution that I observed last Friday convinced me that your beloved Lionel isn't really doing anything to alleviate such. The "creek bottoms" were filled with ramshackle hovels that no self respecting Dominican should occupy voluntarily.Yes, i know, it isn't the governments fault...BS, the govt just closes a blind eye to such deplorable conditions of economic degradation and goes it's merry way of building new edificiios to house the blood-suckers and ineffectual employees.

I think the country was better off in the 1600-1700's with a lot of the population surviving by subsistance farming (something not seen today...wonder why?) and ranching.

Your allusion is, again, the product of self-delusion in the face of facts.

Ask yourself the whys of the recovery from the Mejia administration debacles.
The taxes have been raised to a point of beggering the population. Such has eliminated the meager gains made through wages. In one fell swoop the legislative bodies wiped out the cushion between destitution and "just getting along" for the common man.

You would be wise to make certain that the prosperity you allude to is REAL and not just allusionary (giving the "appearance" of prosperity instead of having REAL prosperity).

Paved roads? Give me a break!!! Have you driven over any roads not main thorofares lately?? I seriously doubt it! The roads in this country are in deplorable shape and continue to go downhill from there.

How can you sit in your house, behind your concrete block barrier and say the things you say. You really don't know what's going on at your own front door. Best you come in out of the shade of your veranda and see just what is happening to your people.

Yes, they frequent the bars and dancehalls, sollicit the prostitutes, etc. But that is symptomatic of the devistating facts of life facing them. Such activity is really an escape mechanism used by the poor worldwide to keep their sanity.

You might be able to convince the uneducated masses that they live in a prosperous environment through your dialogue, but, old son, I know your full of it, so why do you keep on telling the same thing over and over and over. You're a broken record.

BTW, the trickle down theory is not originally mine, it was Adam Smith himself who first proposed suchthing when he casted upon the earth the workings of market capitalism.

One extra thing, Adam Smith also wrote in his book (which I consider it to be the bible, because without it the modern world would not have become the prosperous place it is today) that countries must be compared to their ownselves at different points in their development stage.

To point to faulty side roads, ramshackle slums, and destitute evident today is pointless in itself. This is something that tree hugging liberals do to get attention and get things their way. The one thing people must ask when making a claim is "compare to what?".

What are you comparing modern DR with? The only way we can gauge our own development is by comparing ourselves to ourselves in a different timeperiod and data after data, the facts says it all. The Dominican Republic of 2005 is the most prosperous it has ever been. The Dominican Republic of 2005 simply is ahead and better than the Colony of Santo Domingo of the 1700s.

Texas Bill

Click to expand...

Nal0whs,

Careful, Careful. While in college and taking an economics class, we were required to do some reading on that book and its application to modern day economies. Though some of the principles apply in varied form, the strongest economy today (US) has diverted heavily from many of the earlier concepts. I cannot find the paper I did (with all of the prof's corrections of course), but it was an interesting read to the contrasts of the past and present.

Smith was very straightforward about what drove the US economy during that time. He broke down the mechanics concerning the distribution of wealth, skill, education, justice, and governance that applied to a bygone era.

Today, we can see some of those principle applied, but not in such a direct manner. The economics today aren't the economics of the past.

Simbul said:

Nal0whs,

Careful, Careful. While in college and taking an economics class, we were required to do some reading on that book and its application to modern day economies. Though some of the principles apply in varied form, the strongest economy today (US) has diverted heavily from many of the earlier concepts. I cannot find the paper I did (with all of the prof's corrections of course), but it was an interesting read to the contrasts of the past and present.

Smith was very straightforward about what drove the US economy during that time. He broke down the mechanics concerning the distribution of wealth, skill, education, justice, and governance that applied to a bygone era.

Today, we can see some of those principle applied, but not in such a direct manner. The economics today aren't the economics of the past.

Click to expand...

The global economy is moving to unregulated free market capitalism.

From my understanding, that is what has always existed in the United States, with the exception of the post-depression era. However, from the 1980s onward, the US have been moving into less regulated free market capitalism once again. That is the type of capitalism that Adam Smith describes and that is the type of capitalism that we are all moving towards.

While its true, that modern capitalism does not resembles the type of the past, most economies of the world (US and DR included) are moving in that direction. As such, Adam Smith's capitalistic notions will hold true.

Hmnn.. Nahowls.. I don't know about your trickle down theory. Generally, wealth trickles down from the Rockefellers to the Vanderbilts.

I think Porfio nailed it on the head concerning debt relief. It won't have much long lasting effect to wipe out the debt, because like the D.R., corruption is a way of life in most of the previously mentioned countries and the political parties in power will continue seeking to enrich themselves at the expense of the citizenry who will be burdened with more taxes to pay for ill-gotten gains.

Debt relief sounds like a wonderful idea. It has good intentions. But, I believe it is like putting a band-aid on a person bleeding to death. Even if the G8 should decide to relieve debt in some countries, I would use heavy scrutiny in deciding what countries benefit. Most of the debt ridden countries should continue to suffer to learn the true cost of corruption, so that they would be driven to hang their corrupt politicians upside down like Mussolini.

No Debt Relief

DR needs corruption relief, in the form of leaders with big brass bal@s willing to enforce all of the stupendous laws all ready in the books. That's it.