New Refinery for Manzanillo!!!

Texas Bill

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Not to jump the gun---But I have just been informed that "our Lionel" announced, last night, that a new refinery would be built in Manzanillo!
This has been rumor-based for a number of years now. Evidently all the "environmental impact " studies have been completed, a company has been found to build it and the "project" will proceed.
This announcement purportedly was made last night on Lionels talk show and from all indications, he exhibited a great deal of enthusiasm along with the announcement.

This subject was the theme of a thread some time back and I'm not sure if "General Stuff" is the appropriate area for this post. Moderator please move if you like.

Does anyone have additional information??? If so, please post it.

Texas Bill
 

Keith R

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Bill, I'm curious -- you say all the EIAs have been done already -- by whom? And what is your own personal assessment of the likely environmental impact?

Thanks,
Keith
 

Texas Bill

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Don't reaally know who nor when EIS's were done on this particular project. I do know that there were several different teams doing surveying, looking at the land, asking questions, etc., over the years since 2000 when I first got to Manzanillo. Some of it was for the Refinery and some of it was for the Coal-fired Electric Plant. No companies were cited.
These schemes have been an on-going gossip column in Manzanillo and the only reason I have brought it up was because of the report that Lionel announced it last night on his talk show.
What knowledge do you have of this???
As to impacting the environment, well, that's anothermatter entirely. If they are careful (which I'm sure they won't be) not too much damage will be done. The area is extremely arid; nothing but cactus and mesquite and very marginal pastureland around there. The main industry is fishing and stealing from one's neighbors. Most of the population are on the dole, either from relatives in the States or the Gov't. Real White Party enclave.
Nothing else to add.

Texas Bill
 

aegap

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Dominican Republic wants Saudi Arabia to build oil refinery in Caribbean country

dot_h.gif
 
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A.Hidalgo

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For me what stood out from the report is "It's not clear where the oil would come from"????????:surprised
 

A.Hidalgo

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Nothing in the article says it will be built in Manzanillo, but there may be a connection. Well have to wait and see. Hold your bets.
 
G

gary short

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For me what stood out from the report is "It's not clear where the oil would come from"????????:surprised

Minor detail. Think positively. There are no problems just solutions.:tired: :tired: :tired:
 

Keith R

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A few questions spring to mind. For one, why would building another refinery on Dominican soil necessarily drop the price of oil sold in the DR? Especially if this project is being pitched as one primarily serving the US energy market? The DR already refines some oil through Refindomsa, but that has not helped domestic gasoline or diesel prices one wit that I can tell.

Second, if a Caribbean location to serve the Eastern US seaboard is the pitch, why the DR instead of Puerto Rico, where DR-CAFTA considerations are not even necssary? [Rhetorical question -- we can take an educated guess -- looser environmental licensing and regulation. Which begs the next question -- what additional contribution to DR's air and water pollution, and greenhouse gas emission will result?]

Third, why put a refinery in Manzanillo, other than the availability of a port? Because it is out of sight, out of mind, maybe? It's certainly far from the DR's main internal markets, meaning added transport costs to any refined petroleum and petroleum products sold within the DR.

Fourth, if you are going to have tankers serving that port, you'll either have to dredge and deepen it or build a fuel off-load/on-load station far offshore. Wouldn't the tanker traffic and/or offshore station affect the coral reefs and habitats protected by the nearby national park?

Fifth, what about the transport links? Is the road system in Manzanillo ready for steady tanker truck traffic (can be quite punishing on roads)? Or is the DR considering a pipeline instead?
 

aegap

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why would building another refinery on Dominican soil necessarily drop the price of oil sold in the DR?

shipping in the raw material and refining it within DR as oppose to having to pay for it to be refined overseas would same money.


Especially if this project is being pitched as one primarily serving the US energy market? The DR already refines some oil through Refindomsa, but that has not helped domestic gasoline or diesel prices one wit that I can tell.

Economics of size.

Second, if a Caribbean location to serve the Eastern US seaboard is the pitch, why the DR instead of Puerto Rico, where DR-CAFTA considerations are not even necssary?

Geography, cost of labor, etc..

Third, why put a refinery in Manzanillo, other than the availability of a port? Because it is out of sight, out of mind, maybe?

Geographic location, maritime attributes, ..I hear the wind blows westward lol, etc.

Fourth, if you are going to have tankers serving that port, you'll either have to dredge and deepen it or build a fuel off-load/on-load station far offshore. Wouldn't the tanker traffic and/or offshore station affect the coral reefs and habitats protected by the nearby national park?

..sais pas, le mec.

Fifth, what about the transport links? Is the road system in Manzanillo ready for steady tanker truck traffic (can be quite punishing on roads)? Or is the DR considering a pipeline instead?

with a budget for the building of such facility in the billions of dollars, I'm sure they'll manage to form some kind of public-private partnership to upgrade whatever road may need upgrading.
 
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aegap

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..more efficient distribution. ..a moder facility would bring competition against the existing oil refining monopoly within the country.
 

aegap

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Recent and related news:


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD class=a18b>Fernandez discusses with Saudis installing refinery in Dominican territory




</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>(Sept, 22)

Begin studies for refinery in Dominican Northwest (Sept, 29)

Five companies interested in building Montecristi refinery
(Sept, 30)


[QUOTE]
SANTO DOMINGO.- The Dominican Republic Export and Investment Center director informed that five international enterprise groups are interested in developing the Montecristi petroleum refinery.
Nevertheless, Eddy Martinez advanced that after a purification it was determined that only two of those groups have the economic backing and international recognition to endorse a project of that magnitude.
Martinez declared during an interview with Diario Libre that, although the studies have not concluded, it is foreseen that an investment of up to 3 B dollars will be required to install the refinery.
He explained that in addition to the Arab investors, also a group with bonds in the United States has expressed its disposition to develop the project.
[/quote]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>
SANTO DOMINGO.- Foreign Relations minister Carlos Morales announced in the National Palace last night that the Government began the preliminary feasibility studies for the installation of a petroleum refinery in Montecristi province (northwest), for the export of petroleum products to the United States.

Morales also revealed that the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia will visit the country next November to discuss an agreement of the project. He said that the installation of a petroleum refinery in the North coast would be very beneficial for the Dominican Republic.
The official pointed ot that in his recent trip to New York, president Leonel Fernandez, prince Turki Al-Faisal and several Saudi government officials talked about the installation of the refinery to supply the Dominican needs for crude and exporting to the United States, mainly its east coast.

Morales also said that the government of Qatar has made proposals to the Dominican Government in that regard.

Industrialists welcome installation of refinery in Manzanillo, Montecristi (Oct, 1)

SANTO DOMINGO.- North Region Industrialists valued as positive the Government?s initiative of finding resources and investors and "to take strategic steps" for the installation of a petroleum refinery in the Montecristi province.
Oliverio Espaillat, Industrial Association president, emphasized that if carried out, the project would represent a substantial improvement in Dominican competitiveness and would contribute to the development of the region and the country.
In the zone, the refinery construction subject has awakened the dreams of many different sectors who believe in the possibility of generating petroleum byproducts for exportation.
In addition, the national demand would be supplied and consequently the costs would be reduced locally, most important, the exportations are aimed at the United States East coast where a new refinery has not been built in the last 30 years, said Espaillat.
Eddy Martinez declared yesterday that to install a refinery of this type in the country requires an investment of up to 3B dollars in the Manzanillo Bay zone.
He added that the Government has received concrete proposals from foreign investors interested in constructing the new petroleum refinery.
The company would have the capacity to refine 300 thousand barrels daily of which, 20% will be commercialized in the Dominican market and the 80% remaining will be exported to the United States.
The refinery will be located in Manzanillo, Montecristi province, and will be constructed jointly with a 400 megawatts electricity generating plant, asserted Eddy Martinez.

Refinery projected for Dominican Republic to generate some 2,000 jobs (Oct, 3)




</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Montecristi.- The petroleum refinery that the Dominican government proposes to install on the northern coast of the country, in the Montecristi province, would generate some 2,000 thousand direct jobs and is expected to attract new investments to the Northeastern corridor.
This information was offered by provincial governor Santiago Caba Abreu, who added that the project would be constructed in the immediate surroundings of the Manzanillo port, which first must be revamped prior to initiating the project.
Recently, Foreign Relations minister Carlos Morales announced that preliminary feasibility studies would begin with a view to installing a refinery in Montecrisit on the northern coast. Meantime, the Dominican Export and Investment Centre (CEI-RD) director informed that five entrepreneurial groups are interested in developing the project, though only two have the necessary backing to undertake it.
..

Public Works minister Freddy Perez announced that some RD$135 million will be spent to recover and rebuild Manzanillo Port?s pier (Pepillo Salcedo), a deep water facility in Montecristi province.
..
This proposal is very firm evidence that the construction, in Manzanillo, of the proposed Refinery will eventually take place and will, upon completion, provide some 1,500-2,000 jobs in the area.
Manzanillo Port- one of the few in the Caribbean which have been historically missed by hurricanes- can reap the benefits of having a refinery which will be available and capable of continuous production, given the serious problems caused by hurricanes Rita and Katrina on the U.S. petroleum supply and refinery production.
..
 
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BushBaby

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I'll check back into this story in another 3 years - something MAY have had a decision on it by then but somehow I doubt it! The proposition first came to my attention back in 1997 but I think that was a rehash of 2 or 3 earlier propositions!!

All sounds pretty familiar Eh Bill? Same story, almost same words - just different News reporters to report it as 'good news' (all the earlier reporters have probably have laughed it all off or died off from old age by now!!). ~ Grahame.
 

Hillbilly

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They certainly can keep their people straight. Al-Faisal, if he is the crown prince, is most certainly not the Saudi ambassador to the US...but that is nit picking..

They are so hot to trot with Saudi millions that they can't talk straight.

I guess nobody knows that Popy Bermúdez had a gazillion meters of land along the Luperón coast for just such a project? And that feasibility studies have been carried out?

While this would be a great thing for Manzanillo, it is obvious that Keith's concerns are valid and will generate some attention.

Depending just which government is in office when this project comes to pass, we'll see whether any of them is taken into consideration...Progress, what crimes are committed in your name!!

Watchfully,

HB
 

Chirimoya

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They certainly can keep their people straight. Al-Faisal, if he is the crown prince, is most certainly not the Saudi ambassador to the US...but that is nit picking..
He's the Saudi ambassador to the US, but is a mere prince, not the actual crown prince.;)
 

Hillbilly

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AHHHH...."a mere prince" ...the guy is slicker than the ice in Rockefeller Center!!

I knew it couldn't be the "crown prince" ,,,,too good a target.

HB
 

aegap

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Mar 19, 2005
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I wouldn't call him a mere anything ..

Here he is

BBC:
Prince Turki al-Faisal, who is set to become Saudi ambassador to the US, is a former head of foreign intelligence
...
He led the Saudi external intelligence service for 24 years until August 2001, when he resigned from the post


The guy has a very extravagant compound-style mansion in Northern Virginia ..fittingly, same city as the CIA. Turki al-Faisal is probably the highest ranking Saudi Arabian outside of Saudi Arabia, de facto wise.
 
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aegap

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.........................​
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Prince Turki bin Faisal al-Saud (born February 15, 1945) is the former Saudi Head of Intelligence, Saudi ambassador to the United Kingdom, Irelandand as of July 2005, the Saudi ambassador to the United States. He is a son of the late King Faisal and a nephew of the late King Fahd. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 

gringito

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Feb 21, 2005
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I Doubt...

that the EIs have been completed. Those have become pretty expensive these days and typically they don't get done until there is a real project. I paid for complete environmental studies in Manzanillo and it cost me a lot. I met with a couple of people managing the project and they seem serious but there are some issues, including the distance from Manzanillo to the cities where the cars are. I don't really think it is geared that much to solving the shortages in the DR as it is selling into east coast U.S. One of the problems in the DR is Manzanillo is one of the only real sites wher you can locate heavy industrial projects on the water. Will it have some negative environmental impacts? Of course, but some projects are desperately needed to solve major problems in the country. The cost of electricity will never come down without solid fuel power plants, for example.

Regards


Not to jump the gun---But I have just been informed that "our Lionel" announced, last night, that a new refinery would be built in Manzanillo!
This has been rumor-based for a number of years now. Evidently all the "environmental impact " studies have been completed, a company has been found to build it and the "project" will proceed.
This announcement purportedly was made last night on Lionels talk show and from all indications, he exhibited a great deal of enthusiasm along with the announcement.

This subject was the theme of a thread some time back and I'm not sure if "General Stuff" is the appropriate area for this post. Moderator please move if you like.

Does anyone have additional information??? If so, please post it.

Texas Bill
 

Texas Bill

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Feb 11, 2003
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A few questions spring to mind. For one, why would building another refinery on Dominican soil necessarily drop the price of oil sold in the DR? Especially if this project is being pitched as one primarily serving the US energy market? The DR already refines some oil through Refindomsa, but that has not helped domestic gasoline or diesel prices one wit that I can tell.

Second, if a Caribbean location to serve the Eastern US seaboard is the pitch, why the DR instead of Puerto Rico, where DR-CAFTA considerations are not even necssary? [Rhetorical question -- we can take an educated guess -- looser environmental licensing and regulation. Which begs the next question -- what additional contribution to DR's air and water pollution, and greenhouse gas emission will result?]

Third, why put a refinery in Manzanillo, other than the availability of a port? Because it is out of sight, out of mind, maybe? It's certainly far from the DR's main internal markets, meaning added transport costs to any refined petroleum and petroleum products sold within the DR.

Fourth, if you are going to have tankers serving that port, you'll either have to dredge and deepen it or build a fuel off-load/on-load station far offshore. Wouldn't the tanker traffic and/or offshore station affect the coral reefs and habitats protected by the nearby national park?

Fifth, what about the transport links? Is the road system in Manzanillo ready for steady tanker truck traffic (can be quite punishing on roads)? Or is the DR considering a pipeline instead?

Keith:

Environmentally, Manzanillo is exactly what you describe it as being, remote and "out of sight". On the otherhand, it is an ideal location for a coal-fired electric plant and refinery.
There wouldbe no necessity to build "far offshore" since within a mile of the shore the bay bottom plunges to some 300-400 FATHOMS; deep enough for the most heavily laden oil transporters to anchor/moor(using bottom anchored bouys and liquid interface off-loading) safely in ALL KINDS of weather since the embayment is sheltered by headlands extending some 15 miles to the North. Manzanillo Bay is one of the very few "Hurricane-proof" embayments in the Caribbean, unlike the exposure presented by Puerto Rico, US Virgins, Jamaica and the Bahamas. It is completely out of the way of hurricane tracks. Check your Maritime Charts for verification if you will.
FYI the road from Monte Cristi to Dajabon is being completely rebuilt (i must assume that this is in anticipation of the"Project" being approved by all participants). From Monte Cristi to Navarette, I can't say; that road needs repairs also. But the time alone for transportation would more than make up for any distance negation in the matter.
As to the coal-fired electrical plant, the existance of a ready customer for a great deal of it's production would alleviate the requirement they place to requiring payment on "installed capacity" reverting to "production" in place.
That was a major stumbling block in the original negotiations for the building of the electric plant. DR didn't want to repeat that error again.
The economic impact would be tremendous for the Northwestern part of the country, producing several thousand jobs for a number of years and opening the area for further economic development due to the proximity of theelectric plant providing a constant flow of that product to thesurrounding communities for social benefits and business expansions. Dajabon is a MAJOR crossing point for goods and services from Haiti and inputs a lot of money into the local areas through cross-border trade. That would expand dramatically if these "Plants" were completed and placed in operation.

Texas Bill
 

Chris

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From Monte Cristi to Navarette, I can't say; that road needs repairs also.

The road is not too bad Texas Bill, but I cannot see that it will last without serious upgrading when oil trucks start using it.

The other issue is that the complete coastal area from Manzanillo right down to Luperon has some of the most well preserved coral reefs in the Caribbean - this is on the one hand. We believe (information from divers but not from marine biologists), that there are coral species that have become extinct or dead from reef bleaching in the rest of the Caribbean, still existing and even flourishing in the area. No doubt the low tourist numbers have contributed to leaving this underwater paradise quite undisturbed. On the other hand, fishing is another issue. Some reefs have abundant fish species of the right nature, but some reefs are denuded. The reefs that the tourists visit, are usually left alone by the fisherman. Other reefs are just simply fished out and you see these ghostly reefs that are busy decomposing, as the sealife, shrimp type creatures and reef fish form a necessary part of the ecosystem of a reef and is necessary for healthy preservation of the reef. I have snorkeled and dived just about everywhere in the Caribbean. If there is anywhere that an underwater coral park can be done with great success, and can be used to preserve some of the reef structures and ocean life, it is on that stretch of beach.

Manzanillo is the only port where shrimp fisherman still go out of on that coast. The rest of the stretch has no more shrimp .. in fact, the shrimp has been 'eaten up'. Some of the old folks there still remember the area being a paradise for shrimp and can tell stories of how many they caught, and how easily. Now, West of Manzanillo, fishermen are having a really hard time, to the extent of fishing on the Caicos Banks in boats that defy description and having to run from the Turks and Caicos authorities. On that island, they have strong protective measures in place, as well as enforcement. I have heard that money changes hands sometimes for the Turks and Caicos authorities to look the other way.

I would put forward that for all the advantages of the site (relatively hurricane free, deep water, etc.,) the ecology in the area remains sensitive and is under extreme stress at the moment, in terms of its ability to feed its local people, and to remain viable environmentally. I heard a scary statistic and would certainly not support this number, but somehow it feels right to me. The estimate is that the DR can only supply 25% of its own seafood needs. Good Heavens, we live on an island close to some of the richest banks for seafood in the world and we can only supply 25% of what the island needs? What is wrong with this picture?

Local people in the area live rural lives, and they estimate that at least 80% of their staple food comes from the ocean.

Like other areas, the main forests on this stretch that ensure a good level of topsoil so that the the ground remains fertile and the water table is preserved, were clear cut and logged, with wood going to Europe. I think the Hillbilly remembers the people that had the logging concession in the area. Certainly there are old local people that tell stories about the logging. This is still in current memory. Add to that current slash and burn agriculture, some shortage of fresh water (this is easily solved but no-one is really doing anything) and you have an area that is going to look like Haiti if nothing is done to preserve it, and further ecological stressors are added.

Can the economic advantage of a refinery preserve an area that is under extreme threat environmentally? I don't know the answer, but I would surely like someone to pay attention to this question.