Justice is injustice for one and for all!

To all the people who have complaints about the way the police and the courts handle things here, this is my advice to you. Get out! The laws here are the laws here and you are not going to change it. If you think that justice was not served then it applies equally unjust to every-one. Just cause your a gringo it doesn't mean your above the law! Stay out of trouble and you'll be alright. If you don't handle yourself correctly in this country you will find your-self doing time! Remember your a guest here, so behave like you would if you where in some-one else's house!

Well DR1 may take this off but this may be one that stays. I see it the same way. Keep your nose clean and have a great time. You must remember we in the USA have become acustom to the way it is here with the laws. When someone here has commited a crime we expect to have bail and back on the streets the same day. Our system is as bad as any.

Ignorance by DEF

Well, I guess DEF is making the suggestion we are not wanted in the DR. MAybe we should spread the word so Europeans and North Americans ca re book for Mexico or other Carribbeean Islands for the winter.

Can you imaging just ONE (1) season wehn travelrs stopped coming to the DR? The economy would implode

It's good to know that ignorant people like DEF are in the minority

It only takes one instance

HArdly are you back on the street "The same day" if you commit a serious crime. You must have a bial hearing, and depending on the crime, post enormous securities or even be helf without bail depending on the circumstances

If the DR wishes to interact with the "civilized" countries of the world in trade and tourism, they must have laws comparable to these other countries.

Do you seem many people trvelling to Turkey, Colombie etc where thier Draconic legal system scares people away.

It will only take one instance of people hearing about instances such as the one in POP to prevent travel to the DR, forever

Re: It only takes one instance

Actually, Turkey is not a very good example of what you are trying to illustrate.

Lots of people go to Turkey - it is a very popular destination with European tourists: Beautiful beaches, very nice people, great food, awesome sights - the reasons for going there on holiday are legion.

However, it is commonly known that you don't want to spend a night in a Turkish prison or a Turkish police station. But the atrocities that take place seem to be reserved for the Turkish - and especially the Kurdish - population. In spite of the reported indifference to human rights, Turkey remains popular.

So no, violating human rights does not necessarily stop tourism - although maybe it should.

Regards, Susanne

Re: It only takes one instance

"Actually, Turkey is not a very good example of what you are trying to illustrate.

A study done one year after the movie "Midnight Express," showed US & Canadian Tourism dropped by 78% to Turkey, I would call that a significant amount, unless you do not consider the United Staes and Canada as providing tourism dollars to other dollars

Right on DEF. I live in Canada and have been vacationing in the D.R. for the last 13yrs. and have had no trouble. The law is the law and if you break it you will have to pay. Not like here where I live and where the criminals run the courts and have all the rights.It`s refreshing to see there is some place on earth where the crimnial will pay for their crimes.

Hi DEF,

Click on this link to see other comments on your "}message{":

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Regards . . . CES

Re: It only takes one instance

The decrease did not stay low. But Turkey caters mainly to the European market. Actually, the last couple of years tourism has been higher than ever.

This year it is going down again, partly due to the conflict between the Kurdish population and the Turkish regime, but mainly due to the fact that Turkey has gotten such a popular destination that thing went too fast and it started getting the same tourist ghetto kind of problems that you could find also on Mallorca and on the Spanish Costa del Sol.

I do not disagree with you on the fact that a bad reputation can make tourism drop. However, most tourist don't really care overmuch about human rights violations, police violence etc., in the country they visit. You want proof of this - look at the amount of tourists in Thailand, Israel, Egypt etc. If the place is sunny and warm and there are interesting things to see, it will take a lot to get most people to boykot a place - no matter the regime. The DR is more likely to suffer a decrease in the amount of tourists if the service goes down or the prices rise than from police brutality.

Regards, Susanne

Re: It only takes one instance

I don't believe "Human rights" was the prevalent issue to discouraging tourism, but as to whether or not tourists felt "safe" from the police of the countries vitited.

You will find very few tourists from the Westen world travelling to Turkey, Morrocco etc due to this situationj.

You are correct in stating that most tourists do not involve themselves in the politics of the country (Look at Mexico) but are only concerned for their safety.

The way the original commnet was posted, Gringo stay home if you don't like the way our Police treat you would certainly deter North American and most European travelers from venturing to a country (DR) if they fear unfair treatmnet from the local police.

Again, look at countries such as Cile and Mexico, both are atrocious for human rights violations, but Mexico seems to confine them to their citizens where Chile spreads their shame equally amongst tourists, where do tourists go? It surely isn't Chile

Re: It only takes one instance

Hi there, Richie,

Maybe we shouldn't continue this on a message board reserved for the Dominican Republic, so I have added my email address if you want to take the discussion further than this reply.

We don't really disagree on the basics here, but I will correct you on the Turkey business. Turkey is - in fact - one of the top ranking holiday destinations among Europeans. Last year close to five million tourists from Western countries spend a holiday in Turkey. Some 440.000 of those were Americans, and that is a 25 pct. increase compared to 1997. Another couple of million were Germans, about one million were British. The numbers quoted here are just from a few Western countries, I didn't bother to collect the numbers from all of them, but I will add that Turkey is extremely popular with Scandinavians as well. So five million tourists every year is just the minimum.

I have travelled in Turkey on both holiday and with my job and I will say that it is a very safe country to stay in. There were some warnings earlier this spring, caused by the tensions following the imprisonment of Kurdish guerilla/terrorist (depending on point of view) ?calan, and generally Southeastern Anatolia is an area to avoid, unless you know your business. The reason for this is mainly the PKK - the organization that ?calan was heading and that fight for their own state or at least autonomy in this corner of Turkey.

The rest of Turkey, however, is safe to travel. People are overwhelmingly friendly, and I have never had any problems with the army or the police, neither have I heard of other tourists being harrassed, except those of Kurdish origin or those that have been guilty of drug smuggling.

Quite apart from that, the way I read the message from the Dominican who started all this, was that he simply stated that no one is above the law, foreigner and Dominican alike and that those who can't accept that should stay away or stay out of trouble. But as long as they behave like the guests they are, they are welcome. Isn't that the attitude in most countries, including the USA?

Regards, Susanne

Re: It only takes one instance

This is definetly a Dominican issue, as it was posted from the DR toward we Gringos

Let us just agree to disagree. Your outlook on travel to countries such as Turkey, Colombia Chile etc are 180o from those of the average American Tourist.

As for obeying the laws of the DR, I believ the statement was "behave yourself or your ass wil be thrown in jail" Being "thrown in jail for misbehaving" is a rather harsh statement, something civilized countries frown upon. If one is dealing drugs, yes, if someone is speedin in an automobile, no

Re: It only takes one instance

Dear Richie,

You know absolutely nothing of my point of view towards travelling in countries like Colombia. I haven't commented on that as I have neither the facts, nor the experience to do so.

However, what I wrote about the amount of people going to Turkey are plain facts. You said that hardly anybody from the Western world did, I proved you wrong. Did I mention anywhere that I agree with the present regime? Or with the PKK? Didn't think so. What I did write was that Turkey generally is a fairly safe place to travel. That is based on personal experience and on numerous travel reports. What facts and what experience is your comment based on?

As for the original Dominican quote, this is it: "Stay out of trouble and you'll be alright. If you don't handle yourself correctly in this country you will find your-self doing time! Remember your a guest here, so behave like you would if you where in some-one else's house!"

Regards, Susanne

Re: It only takes one instance

Susanne

I understand everything you have posted, you now have the last word, your experience and expertise can not be refuted. You are absoluteky correct in each and every comment you make, I am terribly wrong and after 50 plus years with Diplomatic Corp. I know nothing of relations with other countries, especially from the American point of view

Good day

Re: It only takes one instance/correction

That should have been 30 plus with the the Corp, fifty as a "world Traveler"

Re: It only takes one instance/correction

In 1995 I had the pleasure of spending a Weekend in jail at the Sosua Police Station. In 1999 I had the same pleasure to spend a Weekend in Jail in a Police Station in Mississauga Canada. I was treated much better by the Cops in Sosua, then by the Cops in Mississauga

Re: It only takes one instance

>>> You are absoluteky correct in each and every comment you make, I am terribly wrong and after 50 plus years with Diplomatic Corp. I know nothing of relations with other countries, especially from the American point of view <<<

Hi Richie,

Do I detect, a bit of or should I say a possibly, a "condescending remark" here?

There is a good possibility that this thread might be deleted from this board, so maybe it could continue on the 'Bravenet Forum'

Regards . . . CES

PS:. . . 'Bravenet Forum' link:

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Re: It only takes one instance

Richie, read my messages again - this time without getting upset - and you will realize that I have never thought I was right in everything. I have carefully avoided commenting on what I have no experience with. It is difficult for me to detect your expertise on Turkey - in spite of all your years in diplomacy - when all you quote is a movie, rather than facts or personal experiences. Those would have made more interesting reading, as other people here, including myself, then had a chance to benefit from it.

Neither have I tried to be clever on the attitude of Americans, I simply stated that some 440.000 Americans visited Turkey last year. But I must say that if I simply based my attitude towards the States upon movies, I would assume it was a very dangerous place to visit! Fortunately, I have been there and know that it isn't - at least no more than most other places on the Western hemisphere

Regards, Susanne

Re: It only takes one instance

" "

Re: read the message carefully

thank you Suzanne for hanging in there