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91 ex convicts coming home
rellosk said:
This happens EVERY Wednesday. In the past the US sent several flights per week. They recently starting sending them all together on Wednesdays. In the past 8-10 years over 30,000 Dominicans have been deported. Very few of them are Deported merely for being illegal immigrants.
Another 91 reasons why hardworking and honest Dominicans are denied visas to visit the US. Sad but true.
Scandall
A good deal of Dominican-Americans are being deported as well.Readytogo said:Castro sent the USA any "undesirable" criminals of Cuban origin, the USA is simply returning trash to its owner
Whose trash?
And, crime in this country started to increase in 1996, the same year Clinton initiated the criminal deportation law (that is not the official name of the law).
The question now is this, if all those criminals started to be sent back to DR in 1996, and up until then crime here was limited to a few petty things with murders and the such being mostly political people getting rid of "opposition", then where did these Dominican emigrants learn to be such criminals?
I would think that we would have seen all those horrible incidents occuring here and the US was simply returning us trash, but that does not appears to be the case.
Crime started to climb around the time the criminals were being deported back, this means that those criminals must have learned their "tricks of the trade" outside the DR.
Whose trash?
BTW, this is where the debate gets going with respect to these deportees who were "trained" to be villains in the streets of NY for the most part, and now are being sent here and they pretty much continue their "trade tactics".
Whose trash?
Edited to add: Other Caribbean islands have been facing the samething since 1996. Barbados (of all places), an island where people did not even killed a fly had to put in place the death penalty because of the increase hard core crimes being commited by deportees.
Again, the question of the day is, if they were trash of Barbados, why did the crime rate started to climb after the habit of deportation started and why did new styles of more brutal types of crime began to appear in many of the Caribbean islands for the first time in those particular periods?
There are crime tactics being used that have been known to exist in major US metropolises since the 1960s, now recently being seen all over the Caribbean.
Whose trash?
BTW, I'm not trying to be belligerent here, just letting you know where the debate stands from this side of the fence. And to put it cut and clear, the debate is this:
If we sent you trash, why were they good citizens when they left?
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Nal0whs said:
Yeah. They were all choir boys before they got to the evil US and "learned" to be criminals. While it's true that prisons themselves are essentially "schools of crime". These guys all did something to end up there first. Where did they live? Immigrant neighborhoods. Did they learn it there? Would that mean that immigrant neighborhoods "teach" people to be criminals.
Horrible upbringing and poor education lead to crime (generally). Whose trash? Their parents' trash...that's whose. The US didn't "make" them sell crack, steal, rape and murder. Their lack of ethics did. Try again.
Edited to include: If you are born in the US you are automatically a citizen and cannot be deported. Even naturalized citizens cannot be deported. Those with residency can. So who are all these "Dominican Americans" you are talking about.
Scandall
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Wait for a new liberal law
I see a new liberal law being passed to make up for Clinton's mistake. Why the good old US will have to put millions of dollars into a after prison program and keep these Dominicans in the US. We will give them free medical care and education. We will even give them priority job placements.
Whose Trash? Give the new multi million dollar Dominican Prisoner Reform Act time. Then when it fails we will come up with another way to spend money correcting the problem.
What did you want the US to do keep them?
I see a new liberal law being passed to make up for Clinton's mistake. Why the good old US will have to put millions of dollars into a after prison program and keep these Dominicans in the US. We will give them free medical care and education. We will even give them priority job placements.
Whose Trash? Give the new multi million dollar Dominican Prisoner Reform Act time. Then when it fails we will come up with another way to spend money correcting the problem.
What did you want the US to do keep them?
I'm not sure if it was their lack of ethics, or if it was their need to survive. I'd be willing to bet that a large percentage of these people were illegal immigrants who had a tough time finding legitimate employment due to the lack of necessary papers.Scandall said:
As I stated in my previous post, I was simply bringing forward the other side of the argument. This does not mean I am truly convinced by such argument, but I am not fully against it, given that there are many unanswered questions that are constantly ignored by those in the US with respect to this issue.Drugdog said:
I will leave a few links on this subject and come to your own conclusions.
This first link is a pictorial and informative site that shows the effect of criminal deportess to El Salvador. Apparently, when these deportees migrated to the US, they were either not criminals or petty criminals, because prior to the massive deportations, El Salvador was not ridden with gangs. After the deportations began, Los Angeles based gangs started to appear in El Salvador. The question is, where did these young people became gangsters?
Commonsense would point to Los Angeles since LA based gangs appeared in El Salvador after the deportations, not vice-versa. Thus, whose trash is it?
In any case, here is the link:
http://www.fiftycrows.org/photoessay/decesare/index.php
This second link is on Adobe and its a report on the effect migration and deportations have had in the Caribbean. This report is in English, Spanish, and French, but the one I am presenting here is the English version.
http://www.focal.ca/pdf/migration_caribbean.pdf
This is another look into this matter, much better detailed in information.
http://www.thedialogue.org/publications/program_reports/taylor_criminal.htm
BTW, when I posted the word Dominican-American, that was to connote the Dominican immigrant who was born here and very early in his/her childhood moved to the United States. Because they grew up in the US, all they know is the US, thus the name Dominican American in this context.
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It is my understanding that the change in the law in 1996 only expanded the definition of crimes that a person could be deported for. Essentially it lowered the severity of crime that had to be committed to get deported. So while the 1996 law raised the number of people that were subject to deportation, it would seem the number of violent criminals returned to the DR did not go up.Nal0whs said:
The name of the law was the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act ("IIRIRA")
One important issue on this topic is those being deported that are raised in the USA. I have met many Dominicans that came here in a very young age (for example 3-7 years old) and never get naturalized citizenship. Imagine those that come at a young age, are brought up as Americans with a bit of Dominican culture commit a crime & then get deported! Are these criminals really Dominicans? I would say NO they are Americans not just because they were raised in America but many are from the lower economic levels & therefore probably have never been to DR, I have met many "Dominicans" that have never been to DR, so exactly whose trash would this type of "Dominican" belong to? The country he was born in or the country he was raised in?
I am not against illegal aliens being deported, I am against residents being deported for many reasons, the biggest reason resident aliens pay taxes & must register for the selective service. If a resident commits a crime I believe they should pay thier debt to American society & stay in America.
On the issue raised by Scandall, most Dominicans do not live in immigrant communities they live in ghettos & yes there is a big difference between immigrant communities & ghettos. Immigrant communities tend to be more peaceful & only have 1 ethnic group for example Hasidac Jewish communities, Little Italy, China Town or the Greenpoint Section in Brooklyn which is mostly Polish.... but Dominicans do not really live in these type of environments where there are just Dominicans, they tend to live with other groups such as Blacks & puertoricans in some rough neighborhoods. Lets take Washington Heights as an example WHs is surround by Harlem, Bronx & a Hasidac Jewish neighborhood, Harlem is harlem it is probably the most dangerous sector of Manhattan island, the bronx neighborhoods that surrond WHs are not the best in matter of fact they are some of the worst in the Bronx and then we have the lovely Hasidac neighborhood where Columbia Univeristy is located. Which neighborhood would impact more a freshly arrived Dominican family? The hasidac neighborhood which is culturally & physically and economically different than Dominicans, Harlem Blacks & Puertoricans which are closer to Dominicans in appearance, culture & economic or the Bronx neighborhoods which again are mostly composed of blacks & puertoricans?
IMO Washington Heights is not an immigrant community but just another ghetto where Dominicans migrate to just due to comfort level. By the way I hate Washington Heights... it truly is a disgrace to Dominicans.
Peace,
Capo
I am not against illegal aliens being deported, I am against residents being deported for many reasons, the biggest reason resident aliens pay taxes & must register for the selective service. If a resident commits a crime I believe they should pay thier debt to American society & stay in America.
On the issue raised by Scandall, most Dominicans do not live in immigrant communities they live in ghettos & yes there is a big difference between immigrant communities & ghettos. Immigrant communities tend to be more peaceful & only have 1 ethnic group for example Hasidac Jewish communities, Little Italy, China Town or the Greenpoint Section in Brooklyn which is mostly Polish.... but Dominicans do not really live in these type of environments where there are just Dominicans, they tend to live with other groups such as Blacks & puertoricans in some rough neighborhoods. Lets take Washington Heights as an example WHs is surround by Harlem, Bronx & a Hasidac Jewish neighborhood, Harlem is harlem it is probably the most dangerous sector of Manhattan island, the bronx neighborhoods that surrond WHs are not the best in matter of fact they are some of the worst in the Bronx and then we have the lovely Hasidac neighborhood where Columbia Univeristy is located. Which neighborhood would impact more a freshly arrived Dominican family? The hasidac neighborhood which is culturally & physically and economically different than Dominicans, Harlem Blacks & Puertoricans which are closer to Dominicans in appearance, culture & economic or the Bronx neighborhoods which again are mostly composed of blacks & puertoricans?
IMO Washington Heights is not an immigrant community but just another ghetto where Dominicans migrate to just due to comfort level. By the way I hate Washington Heights... it truly is a disgrace to Dominicans.
Peace,
Capo
Well,Readytogo said:
lets see...
Most migrated in their childhood and/or teenage years and/or youngadult years.
Hmm, interesting.
BTW, please read at the very least the third link I presented here. You responded way too quickly for me to be convinced that you did anything other than scan.
I suppose if the DR simply initiates a mass death penalty application to all deportees, that that will be fine.
No NGOs from the USA coming down our throats, despite the fact that a good chunck of the deported grew up in the US, are virtual Americans who just happened to had been born outside that country.
You know very well that you would be stating these very same words what you saw around you was American emigrants commiting crimes in your neighborhood. Not just that, but American emigrants that were deported from elsewhere, dress differently, talk differently if not in a different language, and overall are different culturally.
Wow!Readytogo said:You are correct, I have no desire to read your "opinion" as I feel it is not valid
You have the trash back where it originated, learn to live with it and stop whining, it ain't gonna change no matter how much garbage you post
Talk about not accepting criticism!
After all the post CC had posted, I was beginning to think that Dominicans were not too receptive of criticism. Seems that it goes both ways....
Did you know.....
That 30% of people in prison in the US are illegal aliens ? I agree to deport the trash that does not want to abide by American Law, it happened to one member of my family and I had no problem with it. Who pays in the long run the American tax payer always .
That 30% of people in prison in the US are illegal aliens ? I agree to deport the trash that does not want to abide by American Law, it happened to one member of my family and I had no problem with it. Who pays in the long run the American tax payer always
.Capo: You're about the first post in this thread that makes some sense. The rest of these people don't have a clue in the world and have probably never met any of these deportees, so they're just talking out of their a$$...
The increase in crime in The DR has very very very little to do with this and a whole lot more with the fact that The DR has become a bridge to bring drugs from South America into The US and Europe. Some of that drug is staying IN The DR and it's starting to cause the same issues that every country where drugs are sold has. Things such as kidnappings (that were unheard of 15 years ago) are normally NOT random and mostly happen to people who have some kind of debt (drug related). Most drive by shootings can also be traced to this kind of illegal activity.
The only connection I see here is that SOME (very few actually) of these people who get deported do have ties to the cartels in Colombia (which they actually developed while in The US) and they may resume their activities as a middle man, but IMO this is the exception and very rare, because when they get deported they have been in jail for a while and usually lost any contacts they had prior to being arrested. The ones that truly have the connections with the cartels have never sold any drugs in The US (i.e. Kirino, Florian, etc)
I can tell you from my own experience in my hometown that the vast majority of these people were actually good people who came to The US with good intentions, then found themselves here Illegally, with no money and without being able to speak the language and eventually got involved in the drug business or some other illegal activity. Most of them would do it here in The US, but would never sell drugs in The DR as it is considered shameful in most families. They are just an easy target to blame the increase in crime on.
The increase in crime in The DR has very very very little to do with this and a whole lot more with the fact that The DR has become a bridge to bring drugs from South America into The US and Europe. Some of that drug is staying IN The DR and it's starting to cause the same issues that every country where drugs are sold has. Things such as kidnappings (that were unheard of 15 years ago) are normally NOT random and mostly happen to people who have some kind of debt (drug related). Most drive by shootings can also be traced to this kind of illegal activity.
The only connection I see here is that SOME (very few actually) of these people who get deported do have ties to the cartels in Colombia (which they actually developed while in The US) and they may resume their activities as a middle man, but IMO this is the exception and very rare, because when they get deported they have been in jail for a while and usually lost any contacts they had prior to being arrested. The ones that truly have the connections with the cartels have never sold any drugs in The US (i.e. Kirino, Florian, etc)
I can tell you from my own experience in my hometown that the vast majority of these people were actually good people who came to The US with good intentions, then found themselves here Illegally, with no money and without being able to speak the language and eventually got involved in the drug business or some other illegal activity. Most of them would do it here in The US, but would never sell drugs in The DR as it is considered shameful in most families. They are just an easy target to blame the increase in crime on.
I may agree with you when you are talking about the common drug dealer. But in NYC there are numerous crews of Dominicans that will do home invasions that sometimes include torture and murder. Most if not all of the victims are Dominican. Not all of the victims are involved in the drug trade either. Alot of the victims are hard working Bodega owners or some guy that runs numbers from a little buisness that he owns. There are alot of immigrants that are poor and illegal and have a tough time getting legitimate employment and would never even think about committing a crime. Some people are just plain evil.rellosk said:
Question for Naolwhs. The premise of your posts is that these poor liitle guys are raised in the US and become criminals because they learn it there.
Then why are Dominicans deported disproportionately higher when compared to other ethnic groups? Why not Chinese? Koreans? South Americans? Europeans? And why don't Americans get deported from countries all over the world more than they do (which is extremely small)?
I'm not bashing Dominicans. I like Dominicans. I live here. But you're trying to shine a sneaker.
As for Rellosk's comment about "survival" because illegals lack the papers to get legit jobs. Please don't make excuses for them. There are MANY MANY illegals who get jobs and (besides being there illegally) do not break the law. Those who decide to steal or sell drugs do so because they are to lazy to do things the right way. It's very Dominican to choose the easy way. Does that make me a racist or a realist?
Scandall
Then why are Dominicans deported disproportionately higher when compared to other ethnic groups? Why not Chinese? Koreans? South Americans? Europeans? And why don't Americans get deported from countries all over the world more than they do (which is extremely small)?
I'm not bashing Dominicans. I like Dominicans. I live here. But you're trying to shine a sneaker.
As for Rellosk's comment about "survival" because illegals lack the papers to get legit jobs. Please don't make excuses for them. There are MANY MANY illegals who get jobs and (besides being there illegally) do not break the law. Those who decide to steal or sell drugs do so because they are to lazy to do things the right way. It's very Dominican to choose the easy way. Does that make me a racist or a realist?
Scandall