The Big Surge?

Simon & Nicky

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Feb 3, 2004
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My electrician told me that recently there was a big power spike in / around Perla Marina that knocked out several inverters, telly's, radios and so forth. My inverter bit the dust recently and while talking to friends further down "the hill" it would appear that a few weeks ago we had a power spike here too.

Having had my system explained to me by Rocky, I've now come to realise that there is no protection in the power lines from the street to the inverter. - Here's the question - Is it possible to protect the inverter (and the rest of the house) from spikes by installing something in the line before the power even gets to the inverter?

- Also I just "lost" a rather expensive mixing console (for music). It went the same way as most of my other electrical equipment (flash boom bang). - It has been sent to the UK for repair where the specialist who looked at it has commented that the problem is probably linked to a bad earth. He's pretty smart then - I doubt I even have an earth! - Next question - Is it really just a case of running cables to a central point (fuse box) and then down to an earthing rod?


Thanks techie dudes!


Simon
 

Rocky

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Nothing is 100% against all the freaky electric things in this country, but, by all means, if you install a fast blow fuse before the inverter, as recommended in the manual, then you might have to change fuses periodically, but you'll be 95% protected against surges.
 

Buzzard

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Feb 28, 2004
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No circuit breakers????????

Simon & Nicky said:
Having had my system explained to me by Rocky, I've now come to realise that there is no protection in the power lines from the street to the inverter. - Here's the question - Is it possible to protect the inverter (and the rest of the house) from spikes by installing something in the line before the power even gets to the inverter?

Simon

Don't you have a 'main' fuse or circuit breaker box which takes the street power and distributes it into the house fuse/breaker box? Even if you don't (which would be highly unusual), you must have some kind of box in the house to distribute the current. My inverters (in both an apartment and a house) are wired to these inside fused boxes. Just do the same.
 

Rocky

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Buzzard said:
Don't you have a 'main' fuse or circuit breaker box which takes the street power and distributes it into the house fuse/breaker box? Even if you don't (which would be highly unusual), you must have some kind of box in the house to distribute the current. My inverters (in both an apartment and a house) are wired to these inside fused boxes. Just do the same.
I can answer that for Simon.
Yes, he has circuit breaker boxes all over and it's all wired in, but he's concerned about power surges blowing his inverter,and a breaker is not quick enough to protect against a heavy surge.
The trace Unit he has even has internal protection, but, still, this is not enough.
As per the installation manual, one must install a fuse in the hot line going into the inverter, and not a slow blow type.
The fuse has to blow so fast that the surge cannot get to the inverter.
 

Buzzard

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Fuses vs. Breakers

Thanks for setting my straight on that, Rocky. And here I was, thinking how clever I was in having my main fuse box replaced with one containing circuit breakers! I'm going to see what's involved with having a fuse put between my inverter and my main. Any idea of the size required, or will the manual spell it out?
Thanks again,
Buzzard
 

Rocky

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Buzzard said:
Thanks for setting my straight on that, Rocky. And here I was, thinking how clever I was in having my main fuse box replaced with one containing circuit breakers! I'm going to see what's involved with having a fuse put between my inverter and my main. Any idea of the size required, or will the manual spell it out?
Thanks again,
Buzzard
The manual, if you have it, will say which size fuse to use, at least it's in the manuals for Trace/Xantrex units.
If you do not have the info available to you, tell me what brand & size of inverter you have and I could take an educated guess.
 

georgios

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Oct 2, 2004
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Eliminate power surge damage to inverter/house electronics

Hello to everyone,

After reading all about fuses & breakers against power surges, my solution
is as follows:

On the AC side (and this applies to BOTH the inverter AC input and AC output (for generator and/or grid tie systems) you should have both an AC surge arrestor and a surge capacitor. Most inverter damage is caused by surges on the AC side coming in through house or generator wiring. In many systems with a backup generator, the generator is located outside quite some distance from the inverter, and is a common hit point for lightning strikes or power surges from an unstable grid like the DR grid. It is well knowed and
documented that surges up to 800 VAC were detected over 110 VAC single
phase residential lines. The surge arrestor and the surge capacitor should be used on the AC portions.

The surge arrestor can handle 60,000 amps.
The surge capacitor can handle 100,000 amps.

For more info please read below:

Surges are comprised of two elements: voltage and quantity of charge. A very high voltage surge can damage equipment by breaking down the insulating medium between elements in a circuit or between those elements and a ground. The amount of damage will be determined by the current from the charge and/or current from the power source. In order to protect a circuit from damage, a surge arrestor must conduct sufficient charge from the surge to lower the surge voltage to a safe level quickly enough to prevent circuit insulation from breaking down.

All circuits can withstand a high voltage for a short time. The shorter the time becomes, the higher the tolerable voltage becomes. Consider a fifty thousand volt surge impressed on a two-hundred-forty volt apparatus having a surge arrestor connected parallel. The SURGE ARRESTOR will begin to conduct the charge, bleeding it out of the circuit. As the charge is removed from the circuit, the surge voltage will fall. As the charge approaches zero the surge voltage will approach zero. If this happens quickly enough the apparatus will be protected.

A SURGE CAPACITOR is a device designed to absorb surges and/or reduce the steepness of their wave front. A capacitor is able to absorb and hold a charge of electricity, returning it to the circuit at a later time. Since the surge capacitor is always connected to the power circuit, current flows at all times. When a surge occurs, added current flows to the capacitor thereby lowering the intensity of the surge voltage. The amount of current the capacitor can absorb depends on the size of the capacitor, and the amount of voltage pushing the current. If the surge is of a low current relative to its voltage intensity, the capacitor will absorb it. If the surge has high current, the capacitor cannot absorb it.

By contrast, our lightning arrestor takes no current from the line during normal operation. When a surge occurs, the arrestor turns on to provide a discharge path. When the surge is gone, the arrestor turns off. The arrestor will handle unlimited amount of current, although amounts exceeding 100,000 amps will generally damage the arrestor.

The main advantage of a capacitor is that there is no time delay in turning on as it always conducts. The disadvantage is that the amount of current it can handle is limited to a few amps, depending on the surge voltage. For this reason, an arrestor should always be installed with a capacitor to protect it from intense surges.

For two-wire (single 115 volt) systems and inverters you can tie the white and black wires to the same side, or the white to the input side, such as from a generator or grid, and the black to the output side. The Green should be well grounded. For dual inverter systems that operate from the grid for battery standby systems, you can put one on the input and one on the output.

**********************************************
A special submersible well pump surge arrestor is also available.
**********************************************

THIS BRIEF TEXT ABOVE INCLUDES SOME TECHNICAL TERMS WHICH MAY
NOT BE EASY TO UNDERSTAND. TO SUMMARIZE :

THE TWO UNITS JUST DESCRIBED ARE CAPABLE TO HANDLE BOTH GRID
SURGES AND LIGHTING STRIKES. DAMAGE FROM LIGHTING STRIKES ARE
COMMON TO HOMES WITH HIGH ALTITUDE. GENERALLY SPEAKING LIGHTING
STRIKES CAN OCCUR JUST ABOUT ANYWHERE. LIGHTING STRIKES WILL
DAMAGE GENERATORS, INVERTERS AND VARIUS ELECTRONICS.

FUSES AND BREAKERS DO NOT PROVIDE ENOUGH PROTECTION.

As posted under "wind turbines" thread, the above 2 products plus a lot
more renewable energy products will be available thru my upcoming website. This website is to be posted on DR1 very soon.

Georgios.
 

Rocky

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georgios said:
FUSES AND BREAKERS DO NOT PROVIDE ENOUGH PROTECTION.
Georgios.
Your post is very intresting and informative, but this part above, I simply do not believe.
There's no way in heaven that lightning or a high power surge can get through a regular fuse of the correct amperage, unless it was so powerful a strike that it arcked through the air.
That tiny filament fries so fast that it can't go through.
If you put a slow blow in, then that's a different matter.
I do admit that I am not a technician or engineer, but I am fairly experienced and the only time I have seen equipment damaged from power surges, when a fuse was present, it was because the fuse was a slow blow.
I'm not sure who you are quoting when you say that a fuse is not enough, but I don't believe it.
 

Ken

Platinum
Jan 1, 2002
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Rocky said:
An actual fuse.
Trip switches can be too slow to turn off.
It only takes an instant for the damage to be done.

If what you call "trip switch" is what I call "breaker", I am in strong aggrement that they don't protect you. We have breakers in the building where I live and there has been damage, including in my apartment, to things not protected by surge protectors. I've also lost a couple of surge protectors, but the equipment was protected.

Have had no experience with fuses in this country.
 

Rocky

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Ken said:
If what you call "trip switch" is what I call "breaker", I am in strong aggrement that they don't protect you. We have breakers in the building where I live and there has been damage, including in my apartment, to things not protected by surge protectors. I've also lost a couple of surge protectors, but the equipment was protected.

Have had no experience with fuses in this country.
Breakers have a tendency to allow overloads for a short period of time, before tripping off.
The reason that they are so popular, is that they are so practical, but in this land of insane power snafus, they offer little protection against the situations that fry equipment.
Nobody likes to use fuses because they are a pain in the butt to replace.
In the case of the inverter, it's worth the inconvenience for saving both your inverter and other equipment on that circuit.
 

easygoin

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Jan 2, 2005
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rocky is correct

Rocky said:
Breakers have a tendency to allow overloads for a short period of time, before tripping off.
The reason that they are so popular, is that they are so practical, but in this land of insane power snafus, they offer little protection against the situations that fry equipment.
Nobody likes to use fuses because they are a pain in the butt to replace.
In the case of the inverter, it's worth the inconvenience for saving both your inverter and other equipment on that circuit.


breakers are way to solw to trip,and by that time the damange is done.surge protector's and inline fuses is your best bet.make sure you get a fuses that say...one time only on them,plus they are cheaper than slow blow or time delay fuses.

about a surge or lightning jumping the fuse block...yes it can happen.it happened to me at a church of all places and took out a 50 ton a/c unit that had fuses,breakers, a phase protector,linebacker,lockout realy's.i think god just said it was his time to go. :cry:
 

Rocky

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easygoin said:
breakers are way to solw to trip,and by that time the damange is done.surge protector's and inline fuses is your best bet.make sure you get a fuses that say...one time only on them,plus they are cheaper than slow blow or time delay fuses.

about a surge or lightning jumping the fuse block...yes it can happen.it happened to me at a church of all places and took out a 50 ton a/c unit that had fuses,breakers, a phase protector,linebacker,lockout realy's.i think god just said it was his time to go. :cry:
Suffice to say that there is no affordable foolproof lightning protection.
 

georgios

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Oct 2, 2004
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Surge arrestors, capacitors etc

Rocky said:
Suffice to say that there is no affordable foolproof lightning protection.

Hello Rocky,

Fuses, breakers etc are devices ment to interrupt a circuit, that's all.
They were not ment to protect it against surges of different properties
such as voltage, amperage, frequency etc.

The surge arrestors & capacitors react within 5 nanoseconds...way too fast
for a fuse or a breaker.

There is a huge industry out there producing protection modules for today's
sensative electronic equipment. Millions of dollars are invested in facilities
to mass produce them. I would think they are right. No reason to promote
arrestors, capacitors etc if fuses & breakers can do the job.

Please visit http://www.deltala.com/products.htm

When expressing opinions at a respectable forum like the DR1, it is better
to allow experts to advise on technical matters like this one. People invest
a lot on their house electronics and want responsible answers as to how
to protect themselves.

With my best regards,
Georgios.
 

Rocky

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georgios said:
Fuses, breakers etc are devices ment to interrupt a circuit, that's all.
They were not ment to protect it against surges of different properties
such as voltage, amperage, frequency etc.
Fuses are meant exactly for that purpose, to protect against higher voltage and/or amperage than the rating on the fuse.
What else would it be for?
Haven't you ever blown a fuse from drawing too much amperage?
When we were kids, it was a fairly common occurence.
 

georgios

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Oct 2, 2004
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Breakers & fuses

Rocky said:
Fuses are meant exactly for that purpose, to protect against higher voltage and/or amperage than the rating on the fuse.
What else would it be for?
Haven't you ever blown a fuse from drawing too much amperage?
When we were kids, it was a fairly common occurence.

Hola Rocky,

I am sure you had a look at the website that describes the surge arrestors.
It provides a lot of information about the operational capabilities of these
units.
The reaction time (measured in nanoseconds) is what is required to
protect against surges. A power surge will penetrate an inverter circuit
before a fuse or a breaker has time to react and burn or trip. A fuse needs
time to overheat and melt away disconnecting the power. The filament
turns bright white and pops.

With a naked eye this event appears to be instant. When measured in nanoseconds, it lasts "a century". The same applies to a breaker switch. A thermomagnetic coil trips the breaker when power is greater then the rated amp of the breaker. The coil needs time to heat-up and activate shut down.

Time is everything. If you stick your finger in a light socket you will get
a shock BEFORE the breaker trips off. Your inverter or computer will fry
before the breaker cuts off the power. Some appliances have built-in
protection devices/restart/reset buttons and can "tolerate" some surge levels.

Having to deal with an 800 volt surge on a single phase line in the DR, I
think the "tolerance levels" are well surpassed.

Investing on surge arrestors & capacitors (about $130) could save 100's
of dollars in damages not to mention the hassle and time for repairs.

Thanks for reading my answer,
Best regards,
Georgios.
 

Rocky

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georgios said:
Investing on surge arrestors & capacitors (about $130) could save 100's
of dollars in damages not to mention the hassle and time for repairs.
I don't know how many nano seconds it takes a fuse to blow and don't know where to get the stats to compare it to the equipment you are mentioning, but I do know that Trace/Xantrex themselves reccommend an inline fuse, and I know there isn't a chance in heaven the system you have mentioned would only cost $130 US, as the equipment needs to be grounded, and, as everybody knows who lives here, there are no grounds, except the ones we install ourselves.
Now, the length of heavy gauge wire running to the ground rods, plus the cost of the ground rods, plus the cost of installing said ground rods, in itself would be prohibitive, specially if you were trying to pass 50,000 amps to the ground, in which case, you might need five rods buried 25 feet into moist earth.
From what I can tell from the mentioned website, there is an assumption that everything is grounded, as it would be in the industrialized world, where there are norms & standards that electricians are required to meet.
Here in the DR, in a world of spaghetti wiring jobs and no grounds, I highly reccomment that the OP follow the inverter manufacturer's suggestions, and install the appropriate fuse.
 

georgios

New member
Oct 2, 2004
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Ground requirments

Rocky said:
I don't know how many nano seconds it takes a fuse to blow and don't know where to get the stats to compare it to the equipment you are mentioning, but I do know that Trace/Xantrex themselves reccommend an inline fuse, and I know there isn't a chance in heaven the system you have mentioned would only cost $130 US, as the equipment needs to be grounded, and, as everybody knows who lives here, there are no grounds, except the ones we install ourselves.
Now, the length of heavy gauge wire running to the ground rods, plus the cost of the ground rods, plus the cost of installing said ground rods, in itself would be prohibitive, specially if you were trying to pass 50,000 amps to the ground, in which case, you might need five rods buried 25 feet into moist earth.
From what I can tell from the mentioned website, there is an assumption that everything is grounded, as it would be in the industrialized world, where there are norms & standards that electricians are required to meet.
Here in the DR, in a world of spaghetti wiring jobs and no grounds, I highly reccomment that the OP follow the inverter manufacturer's suggestions, and install the appropriate fuse.

*********************************************************

Grounding is the most important aspect of any electrical installation. Almost
all of the people I know in the DR have good ground features at their homes.
Anyone that owns a house with no ground should install one ASAP. Personal
safety is way more serious than an inverter burnout. A typical ground copper
rod at 5/8" driven 10-12 feet into the ground can provide minimal req'd
ground to the main panel of the house. Connecting a heavy gauge copper
wire to the main water supply pipeline is also added protection.

Xantrex/Trace inverters require multiple grounding. For those people that
lost their inverter manual, here is the file (large version):

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/346/docserve.asp

Many thanks to DR1 for hosting my comments.
Georgios.