Dialectology issues in the Spanish language

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Marianopolita

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Linguistics -----} Sociolinguistics ------} Dialectology

There is a current thread in the debates forum (Los vende patria nos acozan-post #57) in which dialectology issues in the Spanish language have been raised and the response triggered me to initiate this thread because for the most part the response given was correct but it also encompassed many Spanish language issues. Out of the most spoken languages in the world today Spanish is one of the languages that has the most dialectal varieties because it is the official language of twenty countries and spoken in other countries by a percentage of the population. According to sociolinguistics studies and research the fact that it is spoken by a large number of speakers whose country has a different history results in regional varieties and dialects.

Academic Spanish or 'standard' Spanish is Spanish as defined by the RAE. The rules of grammar, vocabulary used and followed by all Spanish speakers maintains the unity and common ground among over more than four hundred million Spanish-speaking people. Any Spanish spoken that deviates from this norm is considered a dialect. However, dialectal Spanish is prevalent in every country and there are common dialectal concepts in the Spanish-speaking world. Some are more common among certain countries usually those with a similar historical background and those located in the same geographical region. Dialects are spoken by the inhabitants of a particular region to a higher or lesser degree depending on their educational and socio-economic background. Since Spanish began to develop in the Americas most of the growth and development initiated in the cities. 'Each city is a complex sociolinguistic microcosm'- (page 8- Spanish dialects by JL). There are many examples of large to medium sized cities in Latin America today that evidence this phenomenon for example Mexico City, Buenos Aires, Bogotá, Caracas and many more.

The discussion in the debates forum was about the authenticity of Dominican Spanish, which can be said for Cuban Spanish, Puerto Rican Spanish or any country’s Spanish. The reason why I referenced these three particular countries is because they are Caribbean based and have similar or in some cases identical syntax structures (correct and erroneous), similar grammar patterns (correct and erroneous), and similar intonation which also has proven to vary region by region all which are, rooted in the history of when Spanish came to the Caribbean.

It is important to be able to differentiate between academic Spanish and dialectal Spanish. Certain syntactic, phonetic and lexical features identify a region or Spanish spoken by a group or nationality. These features may or may not comply with the academic structures of standard Spanish but are considered the norm in that area where the dialect is spoken.

Here are some examples of dialectal Caribbean Spanish (includes grammar, syntactic and morphosyntactic structures that are outside of the academic norm). I am sure most of you can recognize why these examples qualify under the study of socilolinguistic (dialectology) concepts.

1. Hacen años que no te veo ( correct form= Hace años que no te veo)

2. No entendí lo que me dijistes (correct form= No entendí lo que me dijiste).

3. El hombre caminaba delante mío (correct form= El hombre caminaba delante de mí)

4. Incorrect formal command forms ej. cállensen (correct form= cállense), váyansen (correct form= váyanse)

5. Omission of prepositions ej. Siempre me olvido cerrar la puerta (correct form= siempre me olvido de cerrar la puerta).

6. Shortening of words and contractions - to, tá, pa, pal etc.

7. Omission of the when speaking but it should always be written ‘mucha gracia’ s/b ‘muchas gracias’, 'mucho dominicano viven en la ciudad' s/b 'muchos dominicanos viven en la ciudad'.

Examples # 1-5 are dialectal and also incorrect grammatical forms. # 6 & 7 are dialectal forms of Caribbean Spanish but not acceptable forms of formal written Spanish.

PD. There are many examples of dialectal forms in everyday speech of a grammatical, syntactical, lexical and morphological nature.

Disclaimer: this is just a mini overview of a very broad topic. My goal was to just address dialectology with a brief summary and examples in everyday speech.


LDG.
 
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Quisqueya

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Nov 10, 2003
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Lesley D,

Very very interesting...hmmmm!!!!!!!! Ok, let me see...Well, every country has their own dialect. Even within a country we tend to see different parts have their respective dialects, I believe this is called regionalism... IMO, spanish in the americas have evolved differently depending on many factors and each respective country speaks their own dialect which is normal but when one starts to add extra 'S' or skipping prepositions this is a sign of little or lack of academic education.

If one can't switch from their dialect to a neutral form of spanish it shows a weak command of the language and indirectly which class he/she comes from. If spanish wasn't such a phonetic language I beleive many hispanohablantes would have evolved their respective dialects to a form of creole which would not be comprehendible... What do you think?..
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Lesley D said:
Linguistics -----} Sociolinguistics ------} Dialectology

There is a current thread in the debates forum (Los vende patria nos acozan-post #57) in which dialectology issues in the Spanish language have been raised and the response triggered me to initiate this thread because for the most part the response given was correct but it also encompassed many Spanish language issues. Out of the most spoken languages in the world today Spanish is one of the languages that has the most dialectal varieties because it is the official language of twenty countries and spoken in other countries by a percentage of the population. According to sociolinguistics studies and research the fact that it is spoken by a large number of speakers whose country has a different history results in regional varieties and dialects.

Academic Spanish or 'standard' Spanish is Spanish as defined by the RAE. The rules of grammar, vocabulary used and followed by all Spanish speakers maintains the unity and common ground among over more than four hundred million Spanish-speaking people. Any Spanish spoken that deviates from this norm is considered a dialect. However, dialectal Spanish is prevalent in every country and there are common dialectal concepts in the Spanish-speaking world. Some are more common among certain countries usually those with a similar historical background and those located in the same geographical region. Dialects are spoken by the inhabitants of a particular region to a higher or lesser degree depending on their educational and socio-economic background. Since Spanish began to develop in the Americas most of the growth and development initiated in the cities. 'Each city is a complex sociolinguistic microcosm'- (page 8- Spanish dialects by JL). There are many examples of large to medium sized cities in Latin America today that evidence this phenomenon for example Mexico City, Buenos Aires, Bogotá, Caracas and many more.

The discussion in the debates forum was about the authenticity of Dominican Spanish, which can be said for Cuban Spanish, Puerto Rican Spanish or any country’s Spanish. The reason why I referenced these three particular countries is because they are Caribbean based and have similar or in some cases identical syntax structures (correct and erroneous), similar grammar patterns (correct and erroneous), and similar intonation which also has proven to vary region by region all which are, rooted in the history of when Spanish came to the Caribbean.

It is important to be able to differentiate between academic Spanish and dialectal Spanish. Certain syntactic, phonetic and lexical features identify a region or Spanish spoken by a group or nationality. These features may or may not comply with the academic structures of standard Spanish but are considered the norm in that area where the dialect is spoken.

Here are some examples of dialectal Caribbean Spanish (includes grammar, syntactic and morphosyntactic structures that are outside of the academic norm). I am sure most of you can recognize why these examples qualify under the study of socilolinguistic (dialectology) concepts.

1. Hacen años que no te veo ( correct form= Hace años que no te veo)

2. No entendí lo que me dijistes (correct form= No entendí lo que me dijiste).

3. El hombre caminaba delante mío (correct form= El hombre caminaba delante de mí)

4. Incorrect formal command forms ej. cállensen (correct form= cállense), váyansen (correct form= váyanse)

5. Omission of prepositions ej. Siempre me olvido cerrar la puerta (correct form= siempre me olvido de cerrar la puerta).

6. Shortening of words and contractions - to, tá, pa, pal etc.

7. Omission of the when speaking but it should always be written ‘mucha gracia’ s/b ‘muchas gracias’, 'mucho dominicano viven en la ciudad' s/b 'muchos dominicanos viven en la ciudad'.

Examples # 1-5 are dialectal and also incorrect grammatical forms. # 6 & 7 are dialectal forms of Caribbean Spanish but not acceptable forms of formal written Spanish.

PD. There are many examples of dialectal forms in everyday speech of a grammatical, syntactical, lexical and morphological nature.

Disclaimer: this is just a mini overview of a very broad topic. My goal was to just address dialectology with a brief summary and examples in everyday speech.


LDG.

LDG,

Have you written or have ever gotten the idea of writing a book about the Spanish language and all of its varieties or simply comparing official Spanish with the style spoken in the Spanish Caribbean?

You seem to be extremely well versed in this subject and, given your indepth and highly impressive attention to the Spanish language and its details, I would assume that writing a book would be a plausible goal for you in the near future.

Highly informative, impressively concise, and very much on target is a characterization of your posts pertaining to this subject.

- NAL ;)
 

asopao

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Aug 6, 2005
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.

1. Hacen años que no te veo ( correct form= Hace años que no te veo)

2. No entendí lo que me dijistes (correct form= No entendí lo que me dijiste).

3. El hombre caminaba delante mío (correct form= El hombre caminaba delante de mí)

4. Incorrect formal command forms ej. cállensen (correct form= cállense), váyansen (correct form= váyanse)

5. Omission of prepositions ej. Siempre me olvido cerrar la puerta (correct form= siempre me olvido de cerrar la puerta).

This is what people call " porionez. A Porion is a person that doesn't have any knowledge of grammar, or very little knowledge of the grammatical rules of Spanish language. Thus, this person doesn't have the ability to change these forms simply because they don't know how to.

In my opinion, this goes " beyond dialect" form. I've never talked like that. I always use the second form.

6. Shortening of words and contractions - to, tá, pa, pal etc.

7. Omission of the when speaking but it should always be written ‘mucha gracia’ s/b ‘muchas gracias’, 'mucho dominicano viven en la ciudad' s/b 'muchos dominicanos viven en la ciudad'.


This is how I speak all the time. This is not " porionez like # 1-5. I know how to convert this back to " Standard REA" form easily. Ex: I would say " toy viendo el pal'e lu" instead of " estoy viendo el palo de luz". in my opinion, my dialect makes me feel Dominican, it identifies me as a Caribbean Hispanic. If you watch Dominican television, you'll notice " educated" personalities talking in this dialect.

Ex: Freddy Veras Goyco in his show. When he is doing relajos ( jokes), comedy, he used the dialect. When he does the commercial ( within the show, which is annoying:angry: ) he speaks standard REA Spanish. Freddy knows how to switch. The dialect can be turn official by DR and work just fine. A problem would arise in the plural feminine definitive article " las. ex: viste la casa? here if you wanted to mean " las casas", you don't have much choice, you must pronouce that " S". In the masculine, there wouldn't trouble. " Lo libro". EL is to different from " LO", right away some Mexican, Ecuadorian, etc, will know you mean " masculine plural".

One time I wrote a letter to a friend in South America in this dialect. It is a very beautiful dialect in my opinion, and I love to speak it. There isn't " something wrong, or uneducated" about it.

Examples # 1-5 are dialectal and also incorrect grammatical forms. # 6 & 7 are dialectal forms of Caribbean Spanish but not acceptable forms of formal written Spanish.

I also find the way people turn the " H" into a " J". I hate it. I don't consider this " regular dialect", this is another form of " porionez". Ex: ya lo jallaste? insted of " ya lo hallaste?". This seems to me like anglicizing the letter " H"; don't know where it came from. But franlky, If you've studied grammar and you know how to write well. You'll know that "hormiga" is written with an " H" in front and it is MUTE sound. So I consider this feature to be a " porionez
 
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Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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Quisqueya/ Nals/ Asopao

Quisqueya,

I must say when it comes to language discussions you do ask the right questions which tells me you have an interest and also a good understanding of the logic of languages. Before I answer your question I think it's necessary to include the definition of Creole: of or relating to a language that arises from contact between two other languages and has features of both. According to the definition of Creole there has to be contact or mixing of two languages and eventually the Creole could become the vernacular language of a particular country. From previous discussions we know that in the Spanish Caribbean region other languages came into contact with Spanish which included the indigenous languages and the most obvious various African languages or even dialects due to the slave trade. Now the infamous and fundamental question that linguists are still asking is: which language had the most impact on Spanish? Research has proven that the African languages had the greatest impact on Spanish in the Caribbean and as mentioned in my first post there was a slow linguistic shift from rural to urban thus impacting and changing Spanish spoken in the Caribbean and leaving its vestiges until present day.

The indigenous presence is evident via vocabulary i.e.Taino words (in the DR) and African words (in Cuba) but the syntax structure and grammar patterns in Caribbean Spanish are directly a result of the impact of the African presence evident in many of the dialectal structures in Caribbean Spanish. Although the presence of indigenous words and African words are noted in Caribbean lexicology it's not to the degree in the spoken language today to have an impact on Spanish vocabulary. The greatest impact of these languages (African in particular) was grammatical rather than lexical. Therefore the formation of a Creole is far from likely although I find Cuban Spanish even today has a significant presence of African vocabulary (stemming from Afro-Cuban popular religions) compared to Dominican Spanish and Taino vocabulary. African vocabulary is heavily noted in literature and Cuban music. El son cubano has African lexicology and some of the best novels I have ever read were by Cuban authors and African vocabulary was just a part of the self expression of many of the writers.

I completely agree with your commentary regarding adding where it does not belong, omission of prepositions, incorrectly conjugated verb forms etc. It's a definite indication of deficient education and especially if the speaker is not aware of the correct forms. Again I must say we see eye to eye on this issue as well. IMO one should be able to switch from dialectal Spanish to proper Spanish if need be and sometimes it is necessary in certain scenarios or situations.

Thanks.

------------

Nals,

Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I have been told by many to write a book. It maybe something to consider in many years to come but right now I am mentally drained as a Spanish language professional. Trust me I have written enough essays, thesis papers etc. and working in the field is all I can handle right now.

------------

Asopao,

Examples #1-5 are definitely dialectology concepts as they relate to linguistics and sociolinguistics. There's a wealth of reading material on the market if you wish to indulge in interesting data. Although there is truth to what you are saying about these examples representing lack of grammatical knowledge etc. I think your point is a separate but correlated topic. I won't comment further.

Your last example about the [ j ] and [ h ] is an interesting phonetic phenomenon. One I have studied in depth as well and is all part of regional speech patterns etc.


LDG.
 
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Quisqueya

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Nov 10, 2003
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Lesley D,


First, I would like to say I'm flattered by your comments. I've always had an interest in languages because of the struggle in Haiti between francophones & creolephones. There isn't anything to debate because I absolutely agree with your statements. Well, I guess I will add my point of view regarding your comments.

In the spanish caribbean region it is quite obvious which language had the most impact as you mention in your post especially the grammatical aspect, although I'm sure most dominicans would deny or refuse to accept your actual statement. Anyway, let me describe briefly something about haitian kreyol. Haitian kreyol is a mixture of french(its base), african(languages of west africa) spanish, english and taino words. Not wanting to get into history but before the revolution that ousted the french out of Saint Domingue even the frenchmen/women and their descendants were influenced by the environment and began to speak a different form of french which today we call caribbean french. Where in Martinique, Guadaloupe, French Guyana & Haiti the francophone speaks a creolised french which is comprehendible to any european francophone but would raise eyebrows if they were not used to hearing this type of french but its easier to understand caribbean french than canadian french. Now haitian kreyol completely evolved after the revolution when all contact with any europe francophones ended and the majority of the white french speakers on the island were exiled which left only the mostly mulattos and Creole blacks who were bilingual as the only french speakers of the island. Here are examples of some of caribbean french which is understandable but not european french.

Il est court(caribbean french)= il est petit(european french)
j'ai serré son cadeau(C.F.)= j'ai caché son cadeau (EF)
je parle pour toi(C.F.)= je te parle(EF)


Now those examples above are understandable but the syntax is NOT standard european french which brings me to caribbean spanish where we can see the same issues. I think the problem is when the speaker are not aware of this and believe he/she is speaking correctly. Again I agree with you whole heartedly and appreciate your comments.

Its sad to see that few people posted on a subject that is so significant. Thank you for enlightening us with your expertise in this subject. Most important I admire your passion but also your understanding of the culture aspect of the spanish language..I've seen many so called experts who are knowledgable "book" but can't profess thier knowledge as eloquently and quite simple as you do... Keep up the good work..
 
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Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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Quisqueya

I am giving a closing response just so that you know I read your post which is very interesting. I am also amazed at the differences between Caribbean French and standard French. I am glad you put the translations of the CF meaning.

I agree Canadian Quebec French is hard to understand but luckily I have been well taught academically so again I know when to sound like a Montrealer and when to sound international. I had know idea about the historical struggle between all French speakers of Haiti whether it was standard French or Creole. In Montreal I have hard time understanding Creole spoken by the Haitians. It's very foreign to me... pero me gusta el francés.

Okay Quisqueya all for now....

Saludos,

Lesley D
 

Tordok

Bronze
Oct 6, 2003
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Hi Lesley,

I agree with the others' comments about your great insights regarding Caribbean Spanish and its specific sociolinguistic issues. I am always thankful of your gracious sharing. Your depth of knowledge on all language themes is readily evident and most welcome.
- :classic:
--------------------

I personally can't do #1-5. I guess that having well educated parents, excellent language teachers, exposure to other dialects, and being an avid reader of Spanish language literature has protected me against those.

On #6, it is just more "fun" and often more authentic to the situation to use the contractions; just as it may be in English. For emphasis or to reinforce informality with friends or family I may use such devices in either language.

Re. #7, I do use those forms frequently but discretionally. For #6 and #7 I never use in a formal setting (e.g. giving a lecture or during a professional meeting), and never in writing unless in quotations.

Whether it belongs in sociolinguistics, dialectology or some other special field, I share Asopao's contention that it is the ability to switch -and when to do so- between dialect and formal Spanish that marks your command of the language, and this can make you a more effective communicator. I have seen Dominicans unable to effectively communicate outside of the DR with other Spanish speakers, and I have seen academic Spanish speakers getting very "lost" in the DR. At the end of the day neither one truly commands the language in that specific setting. Clearly the person that can speak the academic version of the language should have less problems internationally than the one limited by his/her exclusive use of whatever their local dialect may be.

There is indeed a peer pressure issue, since any Dominican using formal Spanish in day to day interactions would be promptly dismissed as an "allantoso" or "priv?n". Not unlike Americans choosing not to speak like Tom Brokaw in their daily American English, even among the educated classes.

It may be a permutation of the more general and pervasive anti-intellectualism found in both US and DR cultures these days. IMO overly formal language is a socially conterproductive activity, although not as bad as being stuck in the grammatically incorrect dialect of the likes of rural Cibae?o in Spanish or so-called Ebonics in US English.

cheers,

- Tordok;) :glasses: :nervous:
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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Hola Tordok

Interesting comments as usual Tordok and thanks for your words.

I fully understood and accepted Asopao's point about his preference to speak the Dominican dialect as a cultural identifier. That's why I did not rebuttal and I accept your point of view as well. I especially liked your last paragraph.

There is an interesting discussion about what dialects represent to a speaker whether the dialect is Dominican, Cuban, Colombian, Panamanian- lo que sea- in the book Como hablamos los dominicanos which is a sticky in the forum. It's an online book (PDF format). If you have a chance to read it in full or the chapters that interest you I highly recommend it.

So far I am glad we are all on the same page regarding my examples #1-5. I purposely gave a range of examples that reflect different grammar concepts in dialectal Caribbean Spanish. Keep in mind these are only examples of Caribbean Spanish you would be amazed with some of the dialectal concepts in Central American Spanish and other regions.


LDG.
 

hugoke01

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Dec 31, 2004
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Diccionario de americanismos

For information :

En "El Pais " de hoy ..

Se esta completando el primer "Diccionario de Americanismos" que reunir? m?s de 100.000 entradas y 500.000 acepciones ..

The first dictionary of Americanismos is getting completed (by 2008) ,it will have more than 100,00 entries and 500,000 dofferent meanings

[/IEjemplos en el articulo :

Examples :

La palabra "Bicho" tiene en Espa?a variios significados pero en Puerto Rico es una referencia al sexo feminino . En Puerto Rico la mejor manera de referirse a "bichos" es decir "insectos "

The word "Bicho" has different meanings in Spain but en Puerto Rico it's referring to the female sex.En Puerto Rico when referring to "Bichos " one better says "insectos"

La palabra "Pico " que en Espa?a es o un herramiento de trabajo , una referencia al bien hablar "un pico de oro " o una manera de decir la hora "son las tres y pico ". En Chili se relaciona con el pene -

The word "Pico" in Spain is either a worktool , a refererence to correct speaking or a way of telling the time .. in Chili it makes reference to the penis

Otro ejemplo es de palabras que disaparecen :
Another example about words that disappeared :

M?xico : Se puso de modo de llamar plagio a un secuestro , y que se extendi? a otros paises de Amarica Latina hasta acabar desapariciendo sin dejar rastro .

En Mexico when referring to a kidnapping the word used was " plagio". It became also popular in other countries but finally disappeared completely .

Anglicismos : no es una preocupacion principal porque mientras que hay palabras casi imposible de desterrar (Web o ordenador ) otras se han mutado al Espa?ol ..

Anglicism isn't considered a major concern . Some words will stay like "web" otros are changed into Spanish like "E-mail" into "Correo"

La obra esta previsto de concluyirse en 2008 ..
The Dictionary will be completed by 2008

Estan involucrado unas 22 academias de la Lengua Espa?ola .
About 22 Spanish Language Academies are cooperating .. as well as following countries : Spain,Chili, Honduras, Peru, Puerto Rico as well as Francia ,Italia and Belgium

The above is just for information and might in the long future be of help for some of you .
 

Quisqueya

Bronze
Nov 10, 2003
682
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16
Excellent post Tordok....


Tordok:
I personally can't do #1-5. I guess that having well educated parents, excellent language teachers, exposure to other dialects, and being an avid reader of Spanish language literature has protected me against those.

It's interesting you mentioned you can't make these mistakes. It would feel like a loud siren going off. As you mention reading alot helps. But what caught my attention was the word "protected". Basically I am assuming from your background you were shielded from making this mistakes by your educational background. Unfortunately in the Tri-state area mostly all the disc jockeys speak carelessly. Now this IMO is very detrimental to the young spanish speakers who listens to this incorrect form and assume its proper spanish. Then there is a point were most will think its fashionable to sound like this which will cause a larger problem.


[
B]Tordok[/B]:IMO overly formal language is a socially conterproductive activity, although not as bad as being stuck in the grammatically incorrect dialect of the likes of rural Cibaeño in Spanish or so-called Ebonics in US English.


Indeed you hit the knail right on the head. Its definitely counterproductive socially. Haiti is a perfect example of where one can witness this issue. I think the key is to know when to use formal or informal spanish or in any language. IMO, communication only can be established when both parties are comfortable and most important getting their point across efficiently..but those who do not have the ability to switch from informal to formal will have a difficult time professionally and limit themselves from conversating with decision makers of society and excluding themselves.
 
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asopao

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Aug 6, 2005
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Quisqueya said:
In the spanish caribbean region it is quite obvious which language had the most impact as you mention in your post especially the grammatical aspect, although I'm sure most dominicans would deny or refuse to accept your actual statement. Anyway, let me describe briefly something about haitian kreyol.

I see that your agenda is always to " Africanize/Haitianize" DR as much as possible, and always labeling Dominicans as " anti-africanist brutes and ignorami". You are trying to imply here that Dominicans " don't speak real Spanish, but a " Spanish Creole" as in the " French Creole" in Haiti.

Lesley said: " Now the infamous and fundamental question that linguists are still asking is: which language had the most impact on Spanish? Research has proven that the African languages had the greatest impact on Spanish in the Caribbean and as mentioned in my first post there was a slow linguistic shift from rural to urban thus impacting and changing Spanish spoken in the Caribbean and leaving its vestiges until present day."


Lesley said : "The indigenous presence is evident via vocabulary i.e.Taino words (in the DR) and African words (in Cuba) but the syntax structure and grammar patterns in Caribbean Spanish are directly a result of the impact of the African presence evident in many of the dialectal structures in Caribbean Spanish. Although the presence of indigenous words and African words are noted in Caribbean lexicology it's not to the degree in the spoken language today to have an impact on Spanish vocabulary. The greatest impact of these languages (African in particular) was grammatical rather than lexical. Therefore the formation of a Creole is far from likely although I find Cuban Spanish even today has a significant presence of African vocabulary (stemming from Afro-Cuban popular religions) compared to Dominican Spanish and Taino vocabulary. African vocabulary is heavily noted in literature and Cuban music. El son cubano has African lexicology and some of the best novels I have ever read were by Cuban authors and African vocabulary was just a part of the self expression of many of the writers."

I've known this way before I started learning of what " syntax and lexicology" are. I believe that the researches are right. African has more influence in the formation of the dialect, in the syntax and abreviating words, verbs, etc , ex : " como tu ta?". Like i've said before, this is due to how the bozal slaves started learning Castilian, this was passed down to the Mulattoes and eventually to the Whites too, similar on how U.S Ebonics has passed into Whites in the U.S in forms like " Wassup Yo ! "

You don't really see the direct impact because impact is more noticeable on the lexical part of the language. In this, Taino impact is much bigger than African in Dominican Spanish. Taino vocabulary is at leat 5 times bigger, this is obvious because when the Spaniards arrived, they saw many things, objects that were totally unknown to them, and they had no choice but to adopt those names of all those rare plants and animals. Also, Taino( or Arawakan) was just one language compared to several languages from the Africans, it was harder for African side to make a footprint on lexicon under those divisive conditions.

When Lesley said : "Now the infamous and fundamental question that linguists are still asking is: which language had the most impact on Spanish? ", This means:

Which impact is bigger? African syntax versus Arawakan lexicon.

Now, I would like Quisqueya to list for us 40 African origin words in Dominican Castilian from the top of his head, let's see if he can make the list.

Not even Arabic has much of an impact to mutate Castilian into an uniintelligible language to let's say, an Italian speaker. And Arabs were in Spain for about 540 years ( with the exception of kingdom of Granada, that was 781 years")

Arabic vocabulary is 5 %, and some pronunciation had an influence. Say out loud " Jaime baja la jaula y la deja alla". It sounds somewhat similar to Arabic, but this would be totally unintelligible to an Arabic speaker.

On the Creole matter, Dominican Spanish is FAR from being a " creole" like they have in Haiti due to the historical circumstances. First of all, in Haiti you had a much more recent bozal population than the East, becuase slaves were exploited until death and new arrivals were coming constantly, as late as the 1790's. that contributed to more Africanization of French, second, the slaves there mutated the language in such a way as a form of confusing the slave masters in order to scape, sabbotage, etc.

In Cuba, the African lexicon is bigger than DR, obviously, because of the history too. Black Cubans have a resemblance to Haitians in purity and also slavery was abolished there in the 1880's, still being a Spanish colony. It is far more bozal than DR, that's explains the heavier impact that Lesley was saying.




Quisqueya said:
Its sad to see that few people posted on a subject that is so significant. Thank you for enlightening us with your expertise in this subject. Most important I admire your passion but also your understanding of the culture aspect of the spanish language..I've seen many so called experts who are knowledgable "book" but can't profess thier knowledge as eloquently and quite simple as you do... Keep up the good work..

Quisqueya, forget once and for all what you hear from " poor, uneducated , campesinos Dominicans". You base your whole bias on what you see from them. Remember, the education in a country like DR is not good, and there are issues with African-side teaching. The country would need a total overhaul of its social studies curricula from the department of education. They( poor masses without libraries/internet) don't know any better, is not their fault. So whenever you go to DR, don't be playing games with their minds.

Now, guys like Nals, Tordok,and I, is a different ballgame. I'm not only get based on "book knowledge" alone, but I always observe people, my surroundings and analize. Looking at all angles. I'm not anti-africanist, I acknowlegde African influence in my culture but I won't allow you or others to always try to portray DR as another " Equatorial Guinea", because it isn't.
estamos?
 
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Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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Asopao

Nice counter post and thanks for adding the information about the Bozal impact. I left it out purposely because I wanted to maintain the interest of any reader without making my post overly long.

Just one aspect I want to clarify which was when I said: 'which language had the greatest impact on Spanish' in the Caribbean region. I meant only the three countries I referenced in my first post. Cuba, DR and PR. However, all linguistic research that I have encountered takes into account the greater Caribbean region which includes coastal Venezuela, coastal Colombia and Panamá when analyzing the impact of African lexicology in Spanish in the Carribean. Therefore if you include the whole Caribbean region the African impact on the grammatical structures (syntax etc.) may be comparable to the lexical impact. However, specific to the DR the grammatical impact was greater.

African lexicology in Cuba can be a separate thread and if anyone disagrees then they do not have subject matter knowledge.


LDG.
 
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Quisqueya

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Nov 10, 2003
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Asopao,

Let me clarify some things...


Asopao: I see that your agenda is always to " Africanize/Haitianize" DR as much as possible, and always labeling Dominicans as " anti-africanist brutes and ignorami". You are trying to imply here that Dominicans " don't speak real Spanish, but a " Spanish Creole" as in the " French Creole" in Haiti.


I don't have an agenda to africanise the DR or make dominicans appear to be anti-african...Im not insinuating that dominicans don't speak spanish but IMO it is a spanish creole (antillano) just like french creole that is spoken in Haiti, Martinique, Guadeloupe, French Guyana, etc etc both are comprehendible by all spanish & french speakers(mainstream). I am referring to the grammatical influence not the lexicology which heavily influenced Haitian Kreyol...

My examples were to distinguish a french speaking caribbean from a french canadian or french european. None of my examples had any creole words..All are french as french can get but the style and choice of words gave them away as an antillean.. Just like when you hear a dominican say " Que lo que???.... todo bien or 'ta' bien...Ya tu sAbe' or ya tu sAbes A spanish speaker familiar with dominican spanish automatically knows hey that's a dominican..

I think you are insinuating that I claimed dominicans speak a form of kreyol like the haitian kreyol which is totally different from french creole... Note haitian kreyol is difficult to understand from a mono-lingual french speaker.

Example from my previous post:

Il est court(caribbean french)= il est petit(european french)
j'ai serré son cadeau(C.F.)= j'ai caché son cadeau (EF)
je parle pour toi(C.F.)= je te parle(EF)

here is the hatian kreyol of the above (CF;EF)
Li kout
mwen té serré kadou'w
map palé avek'w

To a mono-lingual french speaker haitian kreyol sounds very foreign..where we can see a communication barrier between the two.. Now a creole french speaker (antillean) and a european french speaker are actually speaking french without any communication barriers each with their respective accent, style, expressions but still french as cordon bleu..

I assumed posters were aware of the difference between Haitian Kreyol, french creole(antillean french) and european french.. I hope this clears the confusion...Again, these are my point of views and I hope you don't let my nationality hinder you from discussing a great topic. Hopefully both of us can learn something..but its obvious people know very little about haitian kreyol... I should 've explain a tad more..


Asopao:On the Creole matter, Dominican Spanish is FAR from being a " creole" like they have in Haiti due to the historical circumstances. First of all, in Haiti you had a much more recent bozal population than the East, becuase slaves were exploited until death and new arrivals were coming constantly, as late as the 1790's. that contributed to more Africanization of French, second, the slaves there mutated the language in such a way as a form of confusing the slave masters in order to scape, sabbotage, etc

Yes I agree dominican spanish is very far from Haitian Kreyol but not antillean french. Again I hope you distinguish the two..Yes Haiti had a larger population of "bossal" which is very insulting to say. It means a newcomer from Africa that can't speak Haitian Kreyol but some African language and untamed..which we still use to insult people..I would NOT call a black haitian a "bossal" unless your ready to rumble..just an FYI... Anyway, good point but Haitian Kreyol isn't an african language..it flourished on the west side of hispaniola from a mixture of all the inhabitants(african, european, taino/arawak, english & spanish) which to me is a beautiful language, literally the new world and old merged. Also your last statement is definitely incorrect the slave masters spoke creole as well but with a more french creolisation..It derived because most of the slaves were from different parts of west africa and didn't speak each others language..and had to communicate amongst themselves and the european french, voila, out of the oven came Haitian Kreyol. Side note Martinican, Gaudeloupe, French Guyana, etc etc all have their respective Kreyol which all of us can understand a little..IMO, the hardest kreyol to understand is guadeloupe kreyol..my ears just can't make out alot of what they're saying...

Well I hope you enjoy my post. I enjoyed yours!!!!!! a pita= a plus tard

NOw this is something that always intrigued me the Cibao dialect..Tu va' a vei......Can someone explain the origins of that dialect? Poi favoi..
 
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Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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Quisqueya...

The Cibao dialect is complex in terms of understanding the phonetic aspects and I think I will pass on getting into a discussion on cibaeño Spanish. It's just too big. However, I will say in linguistic research this dialect is analyzed side by side with 'el habla popular de Puerto Rico' because certain areas of Puerto Rico have a very similar dialectal Spanish. Spanish from the Cibao region requires a phonetic analysis and understanding of the grouping of certain vowels thus forming a diphthong.

For example [ l ] and [ r ] at the end of words become [ i ] and combined with [ e ] form a diphthong. Comer will sound like comei. Therefore using your example which is a song by Toño Rosario btw 'tú va 'vei' is typical cibaeño vocalization.

In terms of the origins of this dialect research shows consistent analysis points to the andalusian dialect of Spain but to be honest with you I have not paid much attention to the historical origin of cibaeño Spanish.

LDG.
 
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asopao

New member
Aug 6, 2005
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Quisqueya said:
I don't have an agenda to africanise the DR or make dominicans appear to be anti-african...Im not insinuating that dominicans don't speak spanish but IMO it is a spanish creole (antillano) just like french creole that is spoken in Haiti, Martinique, Guadeloupe, French Guyana, etc etc both are comprehendible by all spanish & french speakers(mainstream). I am referring to the grammatical influence not the lexicology which heavily influenced Haitian Kreyol...

You are mislabeling terms here. What you mean is " French dialect", which is the same thing as regular French from France, there are only slight differences. Neverthless, it is the same language. The same happens in DR, the changes are very minimal, a dialect is mutually intelligible with other dialects of the same language.

EX: An Argentinian be speaking like " Vos queres comprar esto?". Everybody else knows what they mean. This is in no way a " Creole". A Creole is a totally different ballgame.

Creoles are mutually unintelligibles, like you said about Haitian Creole and regular French. What you were talking about was just " Caribbean French", the same as " Caribbean Spanish, like what Cubans, Dominicans, Boricuas speak.

Creole is classified as a separate language, Dominican Spanish is not a separate language, therefore; it is not a Creole. It is just one variation of Spanish.



Quisqueya said:
My examples were to distinguish a french speaking caribbean from a french canadian or french european. None of my examples had any creole words..All are french as french can get but the style and choice of words gave them away as an antillean.. Just like when you hear a dominican say " Que lo que???.... todo bien or 'ta' bien...Ya tu sAbe' or ya tu sAbes A spanish speaker familiar with dominican spanish automatically knows hey that's a dominican..

I think you are insinuating that I claimed dominicans speak a form of kreyol like the haitian kreyol which is totally different from french creole... Note haitian kreyol is difficult to understand from a mono-lingual french speaker.

Example from my previous post:

Il est court(caribbean french)= il est petit(european french)
j'ai serré son cadeau(C.F.)= j'ai caché son cadeau (EF)
je parle pour toi(C.F.)= je te parle(EF)

here is the hatian kreyol of the above (CF;EF)
Li kout
mwen té serré kadou'w
map palé avek'w

To a mono-lingual french speaker haitian kreyol sounds very foreign..where we can see a communication barrier between the two.. Now a creole french speaker (antillean) and a european french speaker are actually speaking french without any communication barriers each with their respective accent, style, expressions but still french as cordon bleu..

I assumed posters were aware of the difference between Haitian Kreyol, french creole(antillean french) and european french.. I hope this clears the confusion...Again, these are my point of views and I hope you don't let my nationality hinder you from discussing a great topic. Hopefully both of us can learn something..but its obvious people know very little about haitian kreyol... I should 've explain a tad more..


Yes I agree dominican spanish is very far from Haitian Kreyol but not antillean french.

Exactly, what you're trying to say is " Antillean French" can be compared to " Antillean Spanish". African " impact" has been on the original French and Spanish have been somewhat similar. That is correct. You just used to wrong word, you said "IMO, is a Spanish Creole". Check out this info on What Creole languages are:

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/creole_language





Quisqueya said:
Again I hope you distinguish the two..Yes Haiti had a larger population of "bossal" which is very insulting to say. It means a newcomer from Africa that can't speak Haitian Kreyol but some African language and untamed..which we still use to insult people..I would NOT call a black haitian a "bossal" unless your ready to rumble..just an FYI... Anyway, good point but Haitian Kreyol isn't an african language..

I only say that when I'm talking in a historical context, the same way I say " Cimarron" ( fugitive slave). I'm not Haitian, so if Haitians don't like that term even in historical context, then I would just say " new arrival African" or something like that. Is a cultural difference I guess.



Quisqueya said:
it flourished on the west side of hispaniola from a mixture of all the inhabitants(african, european, taino/arawak, english & spanish) which to me is a beautiful language, literally the new world and old merged. Also your last statement is definitely incorrect the slave masters spoke creole as well but with a more french creolisation..It derived because most of the slaves were from different parts of west africa and didn't speak each others language..and had to communicate amongst themselves and the european french, voila, out of the oven came Haitian Kreyol. Side note Martinican, Gaudeloupe, French Guyana, etc etc all have their respective Kreyol which all of us can understand a little..IMO, the hardest kreyol to understand is guadeloupe kreyol..my ears just can't make out alot of what they're saying...
Quisqueya said:
I read that somewhere, ( about the deliberate mutation) since I'm not Haitian, I'm not sure if is true. If you say so, then ok.
 
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Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
766
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Necessary clarification

Dialects can be unintelligible in the same language in Spanish in particular if regionalisms are used. The grammar structure remains common from country to country but colloquialisms and regionalisms can make Spanish spoken in two different countries unintelligible.

However, it does not constitute a Creole because there's no mixing of two languages. I have some information about this middle of the road when the dialect is unintelligible because of regional expressions but NOT a Creole because there is no language mixing. If I could find it I will include it later on if not I will leave my comment as is.

Here is a phrase a Colombian friend said to me recently:

Tengo muchas culebras- 'culebras' in this phrase means 'deuda' and not the traditional meaning.


LDG.


asopao said:
You are mislabeling terms here. What you mean is " French dialect", which is the same thing as regular French from France, there are only slight differences. Neverthless, it is the same language. The same happens in DR, the changes are very minimal, a dialect is mutually intelligible with other dialects of the same language.
 
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