Is the DR more or less classist than the United States?

I would say yes. It's very well defined here. Your kids school, the places you shop at, the clubs you hang out at, the places you go for vacation, all help re-enforce your status. The line between classes here is very clear and that line is solid and kept in place.

Look at Sammy Sosua, he is very wealthy and an international celebrity, but he will never be able to cross certain class lines here due to his background.
Kids in middle class schools will pick up a ball and play soccer before they will pick up a baseball bat. It's another way of drawing the class line.
Some wealthy middle class brought Jaguars when they first arrived, then 1 or 2 Merengeros brought Jag's. Bad move by the dealer, sales dived

Classisem penetrates many areas of peoples life here, at times subtle, other times in your face. You get used to it and eventually find your place in the pecking order.

To be honest, I really don't have a problem with it.

The social class thing in the DR is probably similar to Mexico's and other Latin countries. In the US it is different. Besides, in the US when they talk about "social classes" they usually mean economic brackets. In Latin America it is more about feeling and showing you are "different", meaning better than "those people". Of course, in the US something similar happens along racial/ethnic lines, instead of just "class" itself. In the US it is between those labeled as "minorities" versus those who are not perceived or classified as such. But the feelings tend to be similar, as well as the prejudices. At least, that's the way I see it. Still, the US in that aspect has created a society that is more fluid and where, at least economically, people do prosper.

It seems to me that being a more informal, caribbean society, without traditional big landowners or blue bloods, Dominican society may not be as strict as some other more traditional Latin countries. Although I am sure, there is also a lot of snobism there on the part of certain people.

I do believe this is a very interesting subject and I hope those long time residents of DR, as well as Dominicans, will share their experiences or observations, the positive and the negative aspects of the social class "system" in the DR. If I am not mistaken, I think Juan Bosch wrote a book about the Dominican social hierarchy. I forgot the title now and I never read the book, but it would probably shed some light on this controversial subject.

I see it a bit differently

Robert said:

I would say yes. It's very well defined here. Your kids school, the places you shop at, the clubs you hang out at, the places you go for vacation, all help re-enforce your status. The line between classes here is very clear and that line is solid and kept in place.

Look at Sammy Sosua, he is very wealthy and an international celebrity, but he will never be able to cross certain class lines here due to his background.
Kids in middle class schools will pick up a ball and play soccer before they will pick up a baseball bat. It's another way of drawing the class line.
Some wealthy middle class brought Jaguars when they first arrived, then 1 or 2 Merengeros brought Jag's. Bad move by the dealer, sales dived

Classisem penetrates many areas of peoples life here, at times subtle, other times in your face. You get used to it and eventually find your place in the pecking order.

To be honest, I really don't have a problem with it.

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Firstly, I agree whatever social snubs Sammy Sosa has experienced here are related his "background" as you put it. I'm not sure we are defining "backgrounod" in quite the same way. Without mentioning the subject that invariably brings out the worst in some DR1 members, my opinion is that neither Rafael Palmeiro nor Jose Canseco (two fellow 'roid users) would likely have similar experiences.

With respect to class and class consciousness, my experience is that like so many other aspects of the Dominican Republic, there is more "show than dough." In other words, there is lip service and lots of energy devoted to appearances. Behind the facade, however, the overweight families seated at restaurants with domestic help in starched uniforms have much much more in common with the toothless barrio dweller struggling to finance a new pair of 10 peso chancletas than they do with polite and well educated citizens of accomplishment. This country is proof positive in so many ways that class and refinement are not for sale.

For practical examples, think of how many times you have seen drivers of expensive late model luxury vehicles barreling toward pedestrians or blocking traffic with no regard for anyone else. How often do you see "high class" Dominicans throwing trash on the street? Well bred people never verbally abuse service personnel or domestic help. It is something you learn as a young child as part of your responsibility to society as a person of privilege. Those who know this country understand that such lessons are the exception here rather than the rule.

Finally, economic strata don't appear to separate classes here in terms of the nearly obsessive orientation toward maintaining appearances. Dominicans often speak about people who own "ropa de marca" and luxury vehicles but have an empty refrigerator. My point is the poor are just as obsessed with it as the wealthy.

Some good points there, especially this:

arturo said:

This country is proof positive in so many ways that class and refinement are not for sale.

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For practical examples, think of how many times you have seen drivers of expensive late model luxury vehicles barreling toward pedestrians or blocking traffic with no regard for anyone else. How often do you see "high class" Dominicans throwing trash on the street?

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I have to say that I come across this sort of thing all the time.:ermm:

IMO, true class means you feel comfortable enough not to have to flaunt your wealth via status symbols. People who feel compelled to do so, have a chip on their shoulder.

Interesting posts. To answer the original question..."yes".

The US certainly has classism but not even close to the extent you see here.

The biggest example is philanthropy. Charity is non-existent here. Americans generate billion and billions of dollars in private donations all over the world. Dominicans will hold on to every peso they have as people starve in the streets. There are almost no homeless shelters, orphanages, private services for the poor etc.

If you have it you hold on to it. That's just the way it is.

I am not bashing the country. I like it here. I live here. I am just answering the OP's question.

Scandall

arturo said:

For practical examples, think of how many times you have seen drivers of expensive late model luxury vehicles barreling toward pedestrians or blocking traffic with no regard for anyone else. How often do you see "high class" Dominicans throwing trash on the street? Well bred people never verbally abuse service personnel or domestic help. It is something you learn as a young child as part of your responsibility to society as a person of privilege. Those who know this country understand that such lessons are the exception here rather than the rule.

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Ain't that the truth!

Yes, Dominicans in general, are much more class conscious than people in the U.S. Very few people in the U.S. seem to give any serious thought about these issues anymore. The US is far from being a classless society but in that country class is not as obviously divisive an issue as political philosophy, race, and religion often are these days.

These differences are due to the level of economic/educational development in the two societies. These are two very different economic realities, with two very different sets of needs. The DR's main problems are of economic survival while in the postindustrial US, the focus of people are on noneconomic social questions (like legality of abortion, morality of euthanasia, the decriminalization of recreational drugs, etc) that go beyond socioeconomic survival and highlight other kind of social affinities and differences.

Politically, for example, along with the expected rich conservatives and the proletarian liberals, in the US there are thousands of 'well-bred', educationally overaccomplished, filthy rich, old-money people that are honestly liberal or left wing, while there are also millions of undereducated, working class folks that are extremely conservative. Both groups are de-facto rejecting the traditional notions of class.

In the DR pretty much everyone -regardless of their status in the economic hierarchy- is both politically and socially conservative. Because the economy is less diversified and the democratic institutions much less developed than in the US the the social divisions in the DR are more about old notions of class (money/privilege/etc) and very few people could be viewed as genuinely liberal or progressive. The latter are usually UASD-educated, self-alienating pseudointellectuals that are so radicalized that are rendered politically and socially ineffective.

There is an exaggerated awareness of social ranking among Domincans that permeates even the most banal of social interactions, to the point of being annoying even when one may be on the favorable end of the arcane social equations that people subconsiously use every day. In the DR social class is driven mostly by perceptions of family/clan material wealth and their transgenerational status, strangely combined with the level of cosmopolitanism in any given individual. So it is provincicial/conservative/traditional -almost tribal- while also pretending to be globalized and avant-garde/hip/cool (as opposed to wannabe/chopo/tacky/campesino, etc). I cannot neglect to mention that perceptions about race are often also a consideration, but that this alone is never sufficient to hold someone in higher or lower social esteem/ranking.

This is my view/biref analysis based on my observations. Anthropologically, class systems are found everyhwere, so not exclusive of Dominicans. I do agree with Juan Carlos in that it is not as rigid as that of larger, wealthier, and racially more segregated Latin American nations.

People are routinely - and often wrongly- led by stereotypes and assume attitudes accordingly. Dominicans are slowly but surely, becoming less preoccupied with such artificial differences and learning to make more rational distinctions based on social merit and not on social appearances.

- Tordok

Tordok said:

very few people could be viewed as genuinely liberal or progressive. The latter are usually UASD-educated, self-alienating pseudointellectuals that are so radicalized that are rendered politically and socially ineffective.

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Interesting post. The above was my favorite part.

Scandall

Yep, and I've met all three of them.

Interesting.

This weekend I had an experience that sort of points out what one of the posters referred to: Money don't make class.

As I went out to pick up the morning papers, I found the beautiful box from a bottle of Johnny Walker Green Label....there in the street.

My first thought was "What kind of a person would have the money to spend +/-RD$3500 for a bottle of good whiskey and then lack the brains to know that you shouldn't throw the empty out onto the street?"

I asked this of my corner "bodeguero" aand he answered:"HB, that person doesn't work." Which to me meant that it was some sort of hoodlum class person....sort of what I felt initially.

Class in the DR: Think back....You went to your girl/boy friend's house. You met her grandmother. What was the first thing out of the dear old lady's mouth?
"¿De quién es usted, mi hij@?"

She wanted to know who and where you were from. She wanted to know what "quality" you were from, too.

Part of living here, I suppose.

As an answer: Yes there is. But it can be porous, if the climber has any couth at all. For example, in Santiago, all the old families have disappeared from 'view' ....The Bermúdez, the Cabrals, the Espaillats, the Tavárez...are still there, but they are no longer the spokespersons for the local scene.
All of the new people have come up by dint of intelligence, education and hard work. 40 years ago there was just the Chamber of Commerce and Industry as a platform.
Now there is the Association of Merchants and Industrialists, the Association of Industrialists North Region, The Associaton for the Development of Santiago all of which serve as platforms for opinion and for forging opinions.
None of the above are headed by any of the old families....

HB

any comments about classism within dominican communities in the united states?

Washington Heights?

arturo said:

For practical examples, think of how many times you have seen drivers of expensive late model luxury vehicles barreling toward pedestrians or blocking traffic with no regard for anyone else. How often do you see "high class" Dominicans throwing trash on the street? Well bred people never verbally abuse service personnel or domestic help. It is something you learn as a young child as part of your responsibility to society as a person of privilege. Those who know this country understand that such lessons are the exception here rather than the rule.

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Wow, this sounds like my NYC neighborhood.


-Helpmann

concon_quemao said:

any comments about classism within dominican communities in the united states?

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Dominicans from the Upper-Class stratosphere do not live in Dominican Communities, they live in upper-class neighborhoods in Queens & Long Island, they're children goes to very good schools and colleges and end up working in corporate america with apartments in NYC or Bklyn (Heights, Park Slope, Cobble Hill, etc..)

When they go out they will avoid chopo hangouts like Mirage and Astro Mundo and settle for nice quaint dominican restaurants like Cafe Rubio or El Continental. You won't catch them mingling in the Heights or Fulton St. (BKLYN)

wouldn't this fit under the umbrella of classism in the US Dominican community?

Ricardo900 said:

Dominicans from the Upper-Class stratosphere do not live in Dominican Communities, they live in upper-class neighborhoods in Queens & Long Island, they're children goes to very good schools and colleges and end up working in corporate america with apartments in NYC or Bklyn (Heights, Park Slope, Cobble Hill, etc..)

When they go out they will avoid chopo hangouts like Mirage and Astro Mundo and settle for nice quaint dominican restaurants like Cafe Rubio or El Continental. You won't catch them mingling in the Heights or Fulton St. (BKLYN)

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You Bet!

concon_quemao said:

would this fit under the umbrella of classism?

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Bingo! jajajajaja


-Helpmann

Hillbilly said:

Class in the DR: Think back....You went to your girl/boy friend's house. You met her grandmother. What was the first thing out of the dear old lady's mouth?
"?De qui?n es usted, mi hij@?"

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I'm having eerily vivid flashbacks of my own experience from your example, HB. ..... all so typical of the old guard bourgeois in Santiago.

"Cual es tu apellido mijo,.... y el de t? mam??" Tu est?s emparentado con Don Fulano, el due?o de Tal y Tal, C por A.?" "Tu abuelo era muy amigo de mi t?o..." yadda, yadda, yadda....:tired:

That crapola does take me back to my own youth when befriended some of my wealthy local classmates or even dared to ask on dates some of the "ni?as-bien" of some of those very same old families you mentioned. I guess my special charms :lick: won them over despite my unorthodox beliefs and my alien status*, but going to any private party at a local rich folk's home meant being interviewed by one of the aunts or grandmothers at some point during the event, all the while the young people -my new "friends"- would exaggerate or emebellish my pedigree for me so that I would be acceptable to their matrons. Ridiculous, but "when in Rome.......

- Tordok

* anyone not from Santiago is considered to be "de fuera" among their upper crust.

'tell me about your people'

Could this be compared to any behaviour amongst the upper crust/aristocracy anywhere? I know similar stuff goes on in my home town in Europe.

Based on reading and movies, what about the 'Boston Brahmins' and the deep south in the US, is all that high society business still alive and kicking there?

Worst Of All Are The "Dominican Yorks"!

They were low class when they left here.Spend a few years in "Nueba York",come back and think that their $hit doesn't stink anymore! They treat everyone like $hit when they get back.I remember one "Bitch" who insisted she was going to park her "Yepeta" in the car port in front of our clinic.She was asked politely to move several times by the security guards,and the supervisor.When she refused they came and got me.Usually a "White" face is all it takes for people to stop calling the "Brown" faces "Come Mierdas" etc.!!She was the exception.Must have been just back from New York.I asked her politely to move.She began to speak to me in her best "English".Which was excellent.I continued to speak in Spanish."What's da matta" she asked,don jew speca English?" I ignored her "english", which really ****ed her off.(Just as I planned!)We went on,her in English,me is Spanish.She asked me if I knew the date.I said "Yes"."Remember it" ,she said,"It is the last day you will ever work here!!!!"...I thanked her,and asked her to please pay me my "Liquidacion",or "severance pay"!She began calling me names and using obscene language"S"!She parked her car,and called her husband, who was supposed to be some kind of "Big Shot"!When he arrived,they demanded to see the General Director.They went to her office,then left.Nothing happened.They were "Low Class", "WE" are "High Class" and thier vote doesn't count here!She did send me a "note" (In English!)however.Telling me that she had "Won",and that I was a "Looser"!:surprised
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