Help with le, lo, la

Status
Not open for further replies.

drminy

New member
Nov 12, 2005
37
0
0
Hello,
I know this might seem extremely easy for most of you but for some reason le, lo and la confuses me and i need a little help. For example:

lo amo - i love him (why not le?)
la adoro - i love/adore her
le dije - i told her/him (why not la/lo?)

Could someone please explain the difference and when to use them correctly.
Thanks! ;)
 

GForce209

New member
Jan 1, 2002
37
0
0
direct vs. indirect

I think it is because lo and la are direct pronouns whereas le is an indirect pronoun. When you say I love her, the verb "love" refers to "her" But when you say I "told" "him" you are implying you told "something" to him and that something would be the direct pronoun while "him" is the indirect pronoun. That explination maybe more confusing then your question but I hope it helps. (I also hope its right:).
 

drminy

New member
Nov 12, 2005
37
0
0
GForce209 said:
I think it is because lo and la are direct pronouns whereas le is an indirect pronoun. When you say I love her, the verb "love" refers to "her" But when you say I "told" "him" you are implying you told "something" to him and that something would be the direct pronoun while "him" is the indirect pronoun. That explination maybe more confusing then your question but I hope it helps. (I also hope its right:).


GForce
Yes, that helps me. So "le" is only used for indirect pronouns. Breaking it down by direct vs. indirect helped me understand it better. Thanks!!
Syrita
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
766
113
Syrita... explanation the indirect object pronoun [le]

Direct object pronouns- replace nouns that answer the question 'what'- lo/ la can refer to a person, an object, a thing etc.

Indirect object pronouns- are used with certain verbs that take an indirect object pronoun and answer the question 'to whom or for whom' an action is intended.

Le= is an 'indirect object pronoun' (masc. and fem) used to refer to (and replace) indirect objects. (Be careful what you said below is incorrect).

Lo/La= are direct object pronouns that are used to refer to (and replace) direct objects in a phrase.

Certain verbs in Spanish require an indirect object pronoun only thus [le] can only be used and not [lo] or [la]. Some verbs can take an indirect and a direct object pronoun.

For example you referenced the verb decir. Decir can take both object pronouns depending on what you want to say. In the dictionary they usually expand the meaning- Decir (algo a alguien). Algo can be replaced by [lo] and alguien can be replaced by [le].

I told him= Le dije

I told him (algo)= Se lo dije

Se lo dije ('le' becomes 'se' because in Spanish two pronouns together that begin with the same letter for phonetic reasons is not permitted. Le lo dije is agrammatical thus Se lo dije is correct. You may hear that incorrect form used by kids who eventually learn the correct way or used by those who are learning how to speak Spanish).

Another classic verb with [le] is Dar. It is governed by the same logic as Decir. In the dictionary you will see the full form Dar (algo a alguien). Algo= lo and alguien =le.


Indirect object pronouns present the most difficulty and the area of confusion for you maybe that some people use [le] when they should use [lo] or [la] this is called "leísmo" and also the usage of these pronouns with some verbs is regional (differs from country to country).

In Spanish some incorrect forms are now acceptable (I won't get into the exceptions) but for example with verbs like llamar, ayudar and conocer you may hear both the direct and the indirect pronoun used.

For example- Voy a ayudarle or Voy a ayudarlo. (Purely regional usage. My suggestion is to use what you were taught or consult the dictionary. I have my preference but I won't impose it on you).


LDG.

Buena suerte.


Syrita said:
GForce
Yes, that helps me. So "le" is only used for indirect pronouns. Breaking it down by direct vs. indirect helped me understand it better. Thanks!!
Syrita
 
Last edited:

drminy

New member
Nov 12, 2005
37
0
0
RE:Syrita... explanation the indirect object pronoun [le]

Thanks for the helpful info LDG!
 

Uzin

Bronze
Oct 26, 2005
1,386
20
38
Thanks from me too, I was getting quite frustrated about "ayudarle". According to my grammer book that should be "ayudarlo or ayudarla" !? I was coming to the decision that Spanish people may be thinking of "Helping somebody" differently !?!? Maybe thinking "somebody" was the indirect object..... ???

Now I see this is basically an exeption (or perhaps acceptable grammer mistake !), do they still use "ayudarlo or ayudarla" in some places ?
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
766
113
Re: le/lo// Uzin & xamaicano

It's nice to see this thread resurface again.

The usage of le/lo (indirect object pronoun vs. direct object pronoun) to refer to "him" varies in the Spanish- speaking world. The usage of one or the other is considered regional and accepted in most grammars however, from a grammatical perspective there is a clear distinction. When I read your comment I did a quick survey with my peers. After asking eight people "how would you say I helped him", four of my coworkers said "le ayud?" and the other four said "lo ayud?".

Please note that le?smo (when replacing lo with le) usually goes uncontested however, when it replaces "la" it's considered a grammatical error. Xamaicano you mentioned that "le?smo" annoys you don't let it because the usage is very widespread and many will tell you adamantly it's "le ayud?". What I believe is important is that you know the grammatical rule as it stands and recognizing when "le?smo" is used will most likely influence the way you speak. In Latin America there is no set trend and out of the speakers I just asked the four who said "lo ayud?" are from Venezuela and Peru. The other four are from Colombia and Bolivia.

The problem stems from understanding pronoun differentiation and "le?smo" according to linguists and philologists goes back centuries in the Spanish language. If you really are interested start from the root Latin and having branched out into four different languages compare the pronoun usage, indirect and direct object pronouns in French, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish. This type of grammatical comparison always lends perspective.


-LDG.
 
Last edited:

rolfdog

New member
Oct 9, 2006
164
2
0
I have read and learned that le/les is used when referring to people and lo/los when referring to objects.

Le veo a Pedro. I see him.

Lo veo el carro. I see the car.

This might explain some of it or make it more confusing. Any comments Lesley?
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
766
113
Re: le/ lo- Rolfdog (Steve)-

What is your source? Hopefully not from a grammar book. If it's a grammar text book of reputable quality I would be surprised that the pronoun explanation is so simplified and that it does not have footnotes or additional comments (?) about regional usage based on your examples. Le/les (indirect object pronouns) can replace people or objects, lo, la, los, las (direct object pronouns) can replace people or objects. Grammar textbooks usually cover the topic of pronouns in depth- subject pronouns, direct/ indirect object, reflexive and prepositional pronouns etc.

Le veo is an example of le?smo. I see him- "him" is a direct object therefore the correct pronoun is "lo". However, le veo is considered standard usage in Spain therefore you will hear and see it written. Some advanced textbooks go into depth about this grammar concept and controversy. Also keep in mind le?smo is only common with certain verbs in Spanish and not to be confused with verbs that truly take an indirect object such as gustar, encantar, corresponder etc.

I like to use newspapers as an example when explaining indirect/ direct object pronouns to show everyday usage from speakers of different areas. Choose sample articles from a few popular Spanish-speaking papers, perhaps one from each region- Caribbean, Central America, South America, Spain and Mexico and pay close attention to the choice of pronouns and you will see a broad range of usage. For example I read (not in full) certain sections of various papers daily and I can always see grammatical differences from paper to paper most are regional nuances, some are acceptable erroneous grammatical forms and some have mistakes.

If you know what the direct and indirect object pronouns are in Spanish (listed above) and understand their grammatical functions you should be able to use them correctly then analyzing grammatical exceptions such as le?smo, lo?smo and la?smo can be studied. However, it's always recommended to use the correct grammatical forms when learning Spanish and any language.

That's all I will comment on since the first step is really understanding the function of each type of pronoun and the second step is using them correctly. Regionalisms should not be adopted by those who are learning the language. I also recommend a reputable grammar book if you are not using one already.



-LDG.
 

rolfdog

New member
Oct 9, 2006
164
2
0
Lesley, my source is harper collins spanish concise dictionary. Though not a grammar text, it has a pretty exhaustive grammar section and I have found it invaluable. I fully underatand direct/indirect objects; it is stated as a footnote. The examples given are: Le/Lo encontraron en el cine - They met him at the theater. Les/Los oimos llegar - we heard them coming. Thanks for your invaluable input, you truly are a language scholar.

I have to ask the translation of the saying/proverb under your name. Ill take a stab. That who fears suffering, already suffers fear. Am I close??
I do not see the subjunctive used, as a lot of proverbs are written.

Thanks

Steve
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
766
113
RE: le/lo- Steve

Thanks for the recognition.

I have seen that dictionary on the market and the grammar section that is included. It's not an exhaustive source as you mentioned but it does touch on key concepts however it's far from a detailed overview. In my opinion invest in a proper grammar book. Concise grammar sources lack the essence and depth required that language references should always have.

Regarding my tag line you are on the right track and I have never heard of an English equivalent. It's a proverb I have always known in Spanish. Translating proverbs does not always capture the source meaning but a loose translation can be done to understand the gist. You are right many proverbs have the subjunctive however, many do not and the essential difference in meaning is in direct correlation to the usage of the subjunctive mood vs. the indicative mood in Spanish.

"El que teme padecer" (he who fears suffering already suffers from what he fears...loose translation) means that the proverb is referring to a specific person or group of people whereas if the subjunctive were used it's purely hypothetical meaning these people may or may not exist therefore not referencing anyone in particular.

Just to add to this point about the subjunctive the mood has virtually disappeared in English. Only a small percentage of speakers use it (knowingly or unknowingly). However, in the Romance languages the subjunctive mood is still a very vital part of each language. The usage is essential in Spanish and French follows right after. In French the usage has been lost somewhat and again there are regional differences. One aspect that I find interesting is that Spanish has many more universal speakers than French does spread across various parts of the globe however this is one grammar aspect that's still almost 100% universal regarding usage among all speakers. French, however, a language with less speakers but much more concentrated in specific countries some usage has been lost in specific grammatical forms and nuances which makes for an interesting study as to how and why the change over time. Anyway this a topic for a different thread. I just thought I would add that piece of information to my dialogue.

All for now.


-LDG.
 
Last edited:

NYC_Trini_Span

New member
Sep 9, 2005
79
0
0
2 cents

Sorry to beat dead horse. I've only been a spanish speaker for less than 2 years, honestly one, because i had to move to the DR to find out that i knew NOTHING LOL. But- I learned enough to begin teaching classes on all the basics of grammar to other foreigner. I consider myself high-intermediate to Mid-advanced (depending on the day LOL). I'm one of those people who wakes up at 3 am in the middle of Dominican Republic and decides to study grammar instead of swing by the bar (before the curfew- that is). And I'm just 26, so thats not easy in these towns ;-)

But Lo/La(s) and Le/Les are also good at answering two questions: what/who? or To Whom?

Lo/La(s) will tell you the "what/who", as in:
?Did you see John(who)? S?, yo lo v?.
?Did you see the car(what)? S?, yo lo v?
?Did you see the tall woman(who)? S?, yo la v?


(*So) *As? que* Le/Les will answer the question "To whom", as in:
Did you write to John? S?, yo se lo escrib?
Did you write (the letter?) to John? S?, yo le escrib?
Tell them! Digales
Give (to) him it/Give it to him! Deselo (De from "Da" in the command form)

Here is one with subjunctive begin in "que", which can be translated many ways, but personally thought of by me as "Here's (to) hoping that" or "I/One would hope that"

*That you (hopefully) tell them everything!
?Que les diga todo! (tell TO WHOM? To them)

Que les escuchen bien
That you hear them good (listen to whom? To Them)

(rather:Listen, but - "listen" and "hear" are used at opposite times from when you would use them in english, 75% of the time, in my experience there... as in escuchame - listen to me.... oye! - listen!)



Ok sorry for babbling, I'm an ESL teacher. This topic killed me in the first 3-6 months that i was learning it, and with le?smo it drove me nuts, but I have this incessant urge to speak spanish as well as i can in english. Near impossible feat???


.......Nah! ;-)
 

NYC_Trini_Span

New member
Sep 9, 2005
79
0
0
2 cents - Correct Version

Sorry to beat dead a horse. I've only been a spanish speaker for less than 2 years, honestly 1, because i had to move to the DR to find out that i knew NOTHING LOL. But- I learned enough to begin teaching classes on all the basics of grammar to other foreigners. I consider myself high-intermediate to Mid-advanced (depending on the day LOL). I'm one of those people who wakes up at 3 am in the middle of Dominican Republic and decides to study grammar instead of swing by the bar (before the curfew- that is). And I'm just 26, so thats not easy in these towns ;-)

But Lo/La(s) and Le/Les are also good at answering two questions: what/who? or To Whom?

Lo/La(s) will tell you the "what/who", as in:
?Did you see John(who)? S?, yo lo v?.
?Did you see the car(what)? S?, yo lo v?
?Did you see the tall woman(who)? S?, yo la v?


(*So) *As? que* Le/Les will answer the question "To whom", as in:
Did you write (to) John? S?, yo le escrib?
Did you write (the letter?) to John? S?, yo se lo escrib?
Tell them! Digales
Give (to) him it/Give it to him! Deselo (De from "Da" in the command form)
Se lo doy - I give him/her/you(ud.) it

Here is one with subjunctive begin in "que", which can be translated many ways, but personally thought of by me as "Here's (to) hoping that" or "I/One would hope that"

*That you (hopefully) tell them everything!
?Que les diga todo! (tell TO WHOM? To them)

Que les escuchen bien
That you hear them good (listen to whom? To Them)

(rather:Listen, but - "listen" and "hear" are used at opposite times from when you would use them in english, 75% of the time, in my experience there... as in escuchame - listen to me.... oye! - listen!)



Ok sorry for babbling, I'm an ESL teacher. This topic killed me in the first 3-6 months that i was learning it, and with le?smo it drove me nuts, but I have this incessant urge to speak spanish as well as i can in english. Near impossible feat???


.......Nah! ;-)
 
Last edited:

NYC_Trini_Span

New member
Sep 9, 2005
79
0
0
You are right! I originally had nothing there and so put lo, but decided later it need an object. Stupid me hadnt looked back until later :)
I went back and read it after but when i tried to edit it said something like "its been 10 minutes and you cant change this". Whats up with that?
 

Norma Rosa

Bronze
Feb 20, 2007
1,127
58
0
Here is one with subjunctive begin in "que", which can be translated many ways, but personally thought of by me as "Here's (to) hoping that" or "I/One would hope that"

*That you (hopefully) tell them everything!
?Que les diga todo! (tell TO WHOM? To them)

Que les escuchen bien
That you hear them good (listen to whom? To Them)

Remember that "you" can be translated as t?, usted, ustedes .
Notice that you say: "diga" but then you say "escuchen".

Please clarify who is being commanded.
 

NYC_Trini_Span

New member
Sep 9, 2005
79
0
0
I really LIKE you Rosa!

Ok, i didnt think i'd be policed so early :)
I'll be watching myself form now on, even while sneaking at my job here lol

Yes, i should have explained that (the formal) AND used my accents. IMHO its better to learn the formal first so that Den and Demos are acquired faster. You can use the t? form all day after that ;) , at least from the Native English speaker perspective.

Catch me if you can Norma!!!!!
 

NYC_Trini_Span

New member
Sep 9, 2005
79
0
0
'toy avergonza'o

PS-
Right again about Les!!! Are you single?? LOL

You know something funny? I wouldnt make that mistake in speech, but i DO speak like the locals around me and say things like "Le dije a ellos" or "dile a ellos to' lo que quiere" (and the quieres was for "t?")

Sigh..... my S's moved out.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.