future of the D.R.

Kiwicanuck

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The ?Dominican Today? Newspaper today reported yesterday?s violent acts in Haiti against Dominican President Leonel Fernandez, which prompted him to leave the country immediately.

Haiti?s Foreign Ministry in a press release deplored the violence. The Ministry said that the violent acts, in which the demonstrators stoned the Dominican President?s vehicle, cannot be excused and are "intolerable."

The Haitian government feels that the incidents can retard the normalization of relations between both countries.

It also reported on the same page the story of the Canadian Policeman who was killed also yesterday by two unidentified gunmen.

The Canadian policeman was riding in a vehicle with a colleague near a UN checkpoint close to Cite Soleil, the largest slum of Port-au-Prince, when they came under gunfire. <unquote>

Surely these are bad signs in regards to future relations with the D.R. and to stability within the D.R. itself.

Wouldn?t many of you feel that one of the biggest problems the D.R. has is that Haiti occupies the other half of the same Island. Or is it better to not even think about it and hope the problem will just disappear some day. Is paradise really being threatened by this very serious problem ?

Kiwi Bruce
 

aegap

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Mar 19, 2005
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In regard to your question about paradise being threatened do to its proximity to Haiti...I have come accross many people that knowing nothing about the DR ,excepting it being very "close" to Haiti, automatically presume it's an extremely dangerous country. I imagine many potential tourists have rejected visiting the DR in finding out how "close" it really is to Haiti.

Notwithstanding, DR does have normal relations with Haiti.

P.S. I'M just sharing my personal observation. In no way do I mean Haiti is a bad place by it.
 
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daddy1

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Given his track record on Haitian's rights in his country

was it justified what local Haitian's did to leonel upon his visit in Haiti...the answer in my opinion, hymm....let's see, Leonel has a bad track record when it comes to defending Haitians rights in D.R....no one to date has been prosecuted for the senseless killings of innocent Haitians who probably had nothing to do with some of the community crimes that have occured, and basically if someone said a Haitian commited a crime, people go out and kill any Haitian they see..what is the police, and the goverments response...pick them up regardless of virtual statis and send them to Haiti!

They have barely any rights in the island, and are extremely discriminated against in D.R, Hartell called them hoodlums, but Mr. Hartell is not a Haitian living in D.R. either:ermm: the protest was about his nonchalant attitude when Haitians are mistreated in his country, they would care less about his frequent flyer miles, or his so called honest visit! so in all due respect there are Haitians who have been deported from D.R. that have lost everything, and to this day, have not been able to get back in the country.... was it proper to have staged such a protest with some anger, yes indeed!.. without a doubt!!!


Now as far as the Canadian officer being killed...that was a senseless crime, but those crimes against foreigners who venture out to dangerous ghetto's are at risk to encounter an unpredictable situation such as what transpired.
 

aegap

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Mar 19, 2005
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Daddy1, you make some valid assertions, which I respect. Hatians do have every right to protest, but don't you think that stoning and shooting at our President's caravan is kinda stretching it?
Did you know the situation got so precarious a Lexus, part of our President's motorcade, was damaged to the point it had to be abandoned in the streets of Port-au-Principe?
 
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DRsScarface

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Kinda Scary

To think that the people throwing rocks are the intellectuals/college students of Haiti and the people that will soon be running that country!
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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Kiwicanuck said:
The ?Dominican Today? Newspaper today reported yesterday?s violent acts in Haiti against Dominican President Leonel Fernandez, which prompted him to leave the country immediately.

Haiti?s Foreign Ministry in a press release deplored the violence. The Ministry said that the violent acts, in which the demonstrators stoned the Dominican President?s vehicle, cannot be excused and are "intolerable."

The Haitian government feels that the incidents can retard the normalization of relations between both countries.

It also reported on the same page the story of the Canadian Policeman who was killed also yesterday by two unidentified gunmen.

The Canadian policeman was riding in a vehicle with a colleague near a UN checkpoint close to Cite Soleil, the largest slum of Port-au-Prince, when they came under gunfire. <unquote>

Surely these are bad signs in regards to future relations with the D.R. and to stability within the D.R. itself.

Wouldn?t many of you feel that one of the biggest problems the D.R. has is that Haiti occupies the other half of the same Island. Or is it better to not even think about it and hope the problem will just disappear some day. Is paradise really being threatened by this very serious problem ?

Kiwi Bruce
1. Haiti does not occupies half of the island, only the western one-third (in really, its slightly less than one-third, but let's leave it at one-third).

2. Hoping the problem will disappear will not help because we have been hoping for that since day 1 of our independence and it has simply gone from good to bad to worst to below worst... However, trying to find valuable and realistic solutions to Haiti is a better option. We are doing everything we can to help the Haitians, including asking the rich countries to help and absorbing so many illegal Haitians to the poin that many Dominicans feel threatened by the sheer numbers of them, often time dwarfing the dominican population in many small towns and neighborhoods nationwide.

3. Relations between Haiti and DR are very good, if not the best they have ever been. History would have dictated that this recent violent act against Leonel and the DR would have resulted in the DR closing the border, deporting Haitians enmasse, scapegoating Haiti, and demanding a public apology. On the contrary, Leonel (as a leader) preferred to minimize the seriousness of the situation, did not scapegoated the Haitian people or the government, and accepted the apology of the Haitians an apology that the Haitian government determined on their own to give to the DR. The DR government calm nature towards this hostility and the shame the Haitian government has felt due to this act is proof that Haiti and DR (at least at the official level) are friends recognizing that the problems will not be solved by indulging in hatred, but rather in understanding and cooperation!

Leonel's actions are highly honorable and Haiti's response is of the same caliber. I hope this is a sign of a better century shaping before our eyes, different from the bloody and useless relations we had for the past century or so.

4. The "threat" comes in the form of massive migration, which throws the issue of low wages into further inferior territory. This will not only worsen the lives of low class Dominicans who are being pushed out of the market, but also Haitian immigrants already working deplorable wages having to endure further diminishing in their own pay.

Also, there is a very realistic risk and fear of criminal element coming from Haiti to DR and much of the attacks some fearful Dominicans have commited against Haitians have been after Haitian criminals harrassing and/or killing a Dominican national, often for nothing worth taking a life. Thus, the Dominicans over-react, compounded by the very visible number of Haitians in Dominican streets, the shoving of Dominicans off the labor by cheapening of the work force, etc etc etc.

The reactions of the Dominicans is understandable, but not justifiable. Crime and injustices are never solutions to crime and injustices. Reasoning, cooperation, and recognition of the problems is the way to solve this problem.

My conclusion: Haiti is going through the worst moment in its history right now. It truly is unfair! Some times I think about the situation and I question myself what would Toussaint think of Haiti if he was to be alive today? I think he would have fallen to the ground and cry in disbelief! The liberation that he hoped for the most oppressed slaves in the world (African slaves in the colony of St. Domingue or Haiti, only had an average 6 month life expectancy from the moment they reached the ports. That's how brutal the French were to those people, not to mention the holocaust the French and Belgians created in Africa, to the point that fear arose that Africa was going to be depopulated! 4 million people perished for no justifiable reason! The biggest crime against humanity in the existence of the world, in my opinion, and these are the supposed "most civilized" societies of the world, commiting such barbaric acts!).

I am genuinely disgusted with the way the rich and powerful countries have been trying to block the sun with their fingers and forget about Haiti. The US, more than any other country, owes Haitians part of their independence, since would be Haitians fought side by side with American revolutionaries to secure their independence! Yes, the history books say the French helped the Americans, but the French simply took their African slaves from Haiti and took them to the American battle fields, so in reality the Haitians helped the Americans and this is how they treat the Haitians today? Bush only sent troops for a few weeks! A few weeks! Over 2,000 American troops have lost their lives in Iraq, those troops was all that was needed to secure Haiti, rather than letting that country spiral to this horrific situation!

I wish the DR would have been able to be in a position to do more to help Haitians, but we are not! We are the biggest help to Haiti, but our help is not enough and we are doing all we can! Brazil is another true friend of Haiti, as well as Uruguay and other Latin countries. Where is the US in this? Where are the French? It can't be that the French are still bittered that the Haitians humilitated them two centuries ago with machetes against their once most powerful army in the world? If so, GET OVER IT!

It's not fair! Haiti deserves better from its neighbors!

Haiti was there for many of these nations when they needed them and this is how they get repaid?

Horrific to the fullest extent that word can be applied! HORRIFIC!

-NAL:angry:
 

sunshine_79

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Nal0whs said:
Where is the US in this? :

Why would the US be involved in the affairs of Haiti? There's no $$$$ to be made out of invading and/or establishing a military presence.


Let a few oil wells surface in Haiti and see how quickly the need for US intervention apears out of nowhere.

BTW, that was an awesome post.
 

Kiwicanuck

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It's about the D.R.

The problems in Haiti I would think must have a negative effect on the future of the D.R. Just focusing on the D.R.

It would seem to me that firstly it must be somewhat of a financial drain on the D.R. for the resources required at the border. Any drain on financial resources when something as elementally as electricity is in shortage must effect the future stability of the D.R.

I realize that it is way more complex than simple examples. However, the similarities between the two countries and there proximity to each other I believe bodes poorly in regards to the future of the D.R.

The past is an indicator of the future. In the last five years has the D.R. moved forward as a society? What?s his (my) problem you may be thinking. I will tell you what it is. I think these boards should be used to reflect the realities of where the D.R. is currently at, warts and all (it does). Also what the reality is as far as what the future holds for it.

Kiwi Bruce
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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sunshine_79 said:
Why would the US be involved in the affairs of Haiti? There's no $$$$ to be made out of invading and/or establishing a military presence.


Let a few oil wells surface in Haiti and see how quickly the need for US intervention apears out of nowhere.

BTW, that was an awesome post.
Well,

Here is a promising reality,

oil has been discovered, at least within DR. Of course, estimates are being established as to how much.

The problem is that the oil is slightly inferior to the sweet crude that flows out of the Arabian desert, not to mention that Dominican oil is very deep into the ground. However, eventually, petroleum prices will rise to the point of making drilling in the DR a viability and if the DR is sitting on an oil lake, guess what that means for Haiti?

BTW, some petroleum have also been discovered in Jamaica and Cuba already pumps some petroleum from it's soil. I suppose these are signs of something nice, at least I am hoping it is!

-NAL
 

Kiwicanuck

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Nal0whs said:
Well, BTW, some petroleum have also been discovered in Jamaica and Cuba already pumps some petroleum from it's soil. I suppose these are signs of something nice, at least I am hoping it is! -NAL

Many Companies that I have worked for here in Alberta have done projects in Cuba that were Oil or Gas related.

Kiwi Bruce
 

planner

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Sep 23, 2002
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sunshine_79 said:
Why would the US be involved in the affairs of Haiti? There's no $$$$ to be made out of invading and/or establishing a military presence.


Let a few oil wells surface in Haiti and see how quickly the need for US intervention apears out of nowhere.

BTW, that was an awesome post.


Sunnie, the US is interested in Haiti partly because of its proximity to Cuba!

There are of course other reasons but that one is predominant.

I echo what others have said, great post Nals.. well said.
 

gringito

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Feb 21, 2005
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Better Get Used to It

Because if the Dominicans don't start demanding a lot more from their governments and if the politicians who run things don't start worrying more about the country than lining their own pockets, the DR is going to be a lot like Haiti in a few years. Don't take my word for it. The head of USAID will tell the same thing as will many others. And don't anybody start lobbing grenades my way either. I love the DR and invest a lot of money there but I am sick and tired of the corruption experienced first hand and seeing the people get so much less than they deserve.

Regards
 

daddy1

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Feb 27, 2004
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It was violent...but most passionate protest usually are!

aegap said:
Daddy1, you make some valid assertions, which I respect. Hatians do have every right to protest, but don't you think that stoning and shooting at our President's caravan is kinda stretching it?
Did you know the situation got so precarious a Lexus, part of our President's motorcade, was damaged to the point it had to be abandoned in the streets of Port-au-Principe?

The Human rights violations that are labeled at the Dominican goverment is due to fact of the harsh treatment towards Haitians citizens living in the D.R.
they have had this label for quite sometime now, and the abuse continues to this day! now thank God the President is alive in all....but the protest although violent!.... sent a message, and in my honest opinion was valiant on the part of the Haitian students there!
 

RHM

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Nal0whs said:
1. Haiti does not occupies half of the island, only the western one-third (in really, its slightly less than one-third, but let's leave it at one-third).

2. Hoping the problem will disappear will not help because we have been hoping for that since day 1 of our independence and it has simply gone from good to bad to worst to below worst... However, trying to find valuable and realistic solutions to Haiti is a better option. We are doing everything we can to help the Haitians, including asking the rich countries to help and absorbing so many illegal Haitians to the poin that many Dominicans feel threatened by the sheer numbers of them, often time dwarfing the dominican population in many small towns and neighborhoods nationwide.

3. Relations between Haiti and DR are very good, if not the best they have ever been. History would have dictated that this recent violent act against Leonel and the DR would have resulted in the DR closing the border, deporting Haitians enmasse, scapegoating Haiti, and demanding a public apology. On the contrary, Leonel (as a leader) preferred to minimize the seriousness of the situation, did not scapegoated the Haitian people or the government, and accepted the apology of the Haitians an apology that the Haitian government determined on their own to give to the DR. The DR government calm nature towards this hostility and the shame the Haitian government has felt due to this act is proof that Haiti and DR (at least at the official level) are friends recognizing that the problems will not be solved by indulging in hatred, but rather in understanding and cooperation!

Leonel's actions are highly honorable and Haiti's response is of the same caliber. I hope this is a sign of a better century shaping before our eyes, different from the bloody and useless relations we had for the past century or so.

4. The "threat" comes in the form of massive migration, which throws the issue of low wages into further inferior territory. This will not only worsen the lives of low class Dominicans who are being pushed out of the market, but also Haitian immigrants already working deplorable wages having to endure further diminishing in their own pay.

Also, there is a very realistic risk and fear of criminal element coming from Haiti to DR and much of the attacks some fearful Dominicans have commited against Haitians have been after Haitian criminals harrassing and/or killing a Dominican national, often for nothing worth taking a life. Thus, the Dominicans over-react, compounded by the very visible number of Haitians in Dominican streets, the shoving of Dominicans off the labor by cheapening of the work force, etc etc etc.

The reactions of the Dominicans is understandable, but not justifiable. Crime and injustices are never solutions to crime and injustices. Reasoning, cooperation, and recognition of the problems is the way to solve this problem.

My conclusion: Haiti is going through the worst moment in its history right now. It truly is unfair! Some times I think about the situation and I question myself what would Toussaint think of Haiti if he was to be alive today? I think he would have fallen to the ground and cry in disbelief! The liberation that he hoped for the most oppressed slaves in the world (African slaves in the colony of St. Domingue or Haiti, only had an average 6 month life expectancy from the moment they reached the ports. That's how brutal the French were to those people, not to mention the holocaust the French and Belgians created in Africa, to the point that fear arose that Africa was going to be depopulated! 4 million people perished for no justifiable reason! The biggest crime against humanity in the existence of the world, in my opinion, and these are the supposed "most civilized" societies of the world, commiting such barbaric acts!).

I am genuinely disgusted with the way the rich and powerful countries have been trying to block the sun with their fingers and forget about Haiti. The US, more than any other country, owes Haitians part of their independence, since would be Haitians fought side by side with American revolutionaries to secure their independence! Yes, the history books say the French helped the Americans, but the French simply took their African slaves from Haiti and took them to the American battle fields, so in reality the Haitians helped the Americans and this is how they treat the Haitians today? Bush only sent troops for a few weeks! A few weeks! Over 2,000 American troops have lost their lives in Iraq, those troops was all that was needed to secure Haiti, rather than letting that country spiral to this horrific situation!

I wish the DR would have been able to be in a position to do more to help Haitians, but we are not! We are the biggest help to Haiti, but our help is not enough and we are doing all we can! Brazil is another true friend of Haiti, as well as Uruguay and other Latin countries. Where is the US in this? Where are the French? It can't be that the French are still bittered that the Haitians humilitated them two centuries ago with machetes against their once most powerful army in the world? If so, GET OVER IT!

It's not fair! Haiti deserves better from its neighbors!

Haiti was there for many of these nations when they needed them and this is how they get repaid?

Horrific to the fullest extent that word can be applied! HORRIFIC!

-NAL:angry:

Nal...you are starting to grow on me.

:)

Scandall