- Thread starter Snuffy
- Start date
Metro...
It just shows how precipitated the beginning of construction was. This huge rip=off just had to be gotten underway.
According to "vox popul?" the gov't payroll could not be paid last month (on time) because the money was being funneled to the Metro, and they (the gov't) 'thought' that the new budget would be approved....
"Cosas veredes, Sancho" (Cervantes)
HB
According to "vox popul?" the gov't payroll could not be paid last month (on time) because the money was being funneled to the Metro, and they (the gov't) 'thought' that the new budget would be approved....
"Cosas veredes, Sancho" (Cervantes)
HB
"Haste Makes Waste"---
That said, I'll add that in their haste to get the "Metro" underway,"undercover", the powers that be neglected to drill the "test holes' common in a project of this type. Reliable companies do that to make some sort of determination as to the type and viscocity of the soil they will be working in. Not so here!!! The fools should have known that Santo Domingo sits atop alluvial deposition from the rivers surrounding it. They just (as usual) didn't use good judgement in planning(?) the project. That scenario is common here. "Full Speed Ahead and Damn the Torpedos"!!!!
We KNOW there will be massive cost-overruns in this project and the poor, dub Dominicans who planned it will surely find SOME WAY to pass the buck in another direction. They'repast masters at rationalizing their way out of sticky situations.
Texas Bill
That said, I'll add that in their haste to get the "Metro" underway,"undercover", the powers that be neglected to drill the "test holes' common in a project of this type. Reliable companies do that to make some sort of determination as to the type and viscocity of the soil they will be working in. Not so here!!! The fools should have known that Santo Domingo sits atop alluvial deposition from the rivers surrounding it. They just (as usual) didn't use good judgement in planning(?) the project. That scenario is common here. "Full Speed Ahead and Damn the Torpedos"!!!!
We KNOW there will be massive cost-overruns in this project and the poor, dub Dominicans who planned it will surely find SOME WAY to pass the buck in another direction. They'repast masters at rationalizing their way out of sticky situations.
Texas Bill
This so-called "Metro" will without a doubt be one of the most ridiculous and corruption infested projects ever to be initiated. I believe in America they call them "Pork Barrels."
Just wait and watch how many more BMW's, Benz's, Jeepetas, will be patrolling up and down the Malecon in the next few months to come. It'll surely help keep Santo Domingo as the top demographic in Latin America with the most Mercedes per capita.....oh well.
Just wait and watch how many more BMW's, Benz's, Jeepetas, will be patrolling up and down the Malecon in the next few months to come. It'll surely help keep Santo Domingo as the top demographic in Latin America with the most Mercedes per capita.....oh well.
As some of you know, my fianc? lives in Villa Mella...believe me, I would not ride on that metro if they PAID me to...
The construction is so shoddy, it's unbelievable...I've asked Tony if they did any kind of 'pre-construction' assesments, or findings of any kind to see if it was okay to start the project, and he says: "Of course, the engineers gathered 'round and said...Yeah, it's ok...let's start...and that was that!"
There is one column that is right on the corner of Ave. Penetraci?n and Maximo G?mez, right where we turn to go to Tony's house, that is the center of one of the first problems to arise...the water they didn't count on...the column can't be erected because of the mud that doesn't let the steel beams set on the concrete...(or something like that)
I don't even want to know how the project is going UNDERGROUND...did anybody ever even think what this whole thing is supposed to do? Carry tens of thousands of people everyday back and forth? What about the crime underground? If there is rampant crime on the streets at all hours of the day, can you imagine what it could be like on the subway???
It pains me to even think about those things...because I would love to see Santo Domingo prosper...but the people in charge have absolutely no sense of discipline to undertake a project of these dimensions...
MQ
The construction is so shoddy, it's unbelievable...I've asked Tony if they did any kind of 'pre-construction' assesments, or findings of any kind to see if it was okay to start the project, and he says: "Of course, the engineers gathered 'round and said...Yeah, it's ok...let's start...and that was that!"
There is one column that is right on the corner of Ave. Penetraci?n and Maximo G?mez, right where we turn to go to Tony's house, that is the center of one of the first problems to arise...the water they didn't count on...the column can't be erected because of the mud that doesn't let the steel beams set on the concrete...(or something like that)
I don't even want to know how the project is going UNDERGROUND...did anybody ever even think what this whole thing is supposed to do? Carry tens of thousands of people everyday back and forth? What about the crime underground? If there is rampant crime on the streets at all hours of the day, can you imagine what it could be like on the subway???
It pains me to even think about those things...because I would love to see Santo Domingo prosper...but the people in charge have absolutely no sense of discipline to undertake a project of these dimensions...
MQ
Just curious...Musicqueen said:As some of you know, my fianc? lives in Villa Mella...believe me, I would not ride on that metro if they PAID me to...
The construction is so shoddy, it's unbelievable...I've asked Tony if they did any kind of 'pre-construction' assesments, or findings of any kind to see if it was okay to start the project, and he says: "Of course, the engineers gathered 'round and said...Yeah, it's ok...let's start...and that was that!"
There is one column that is right on the corner of Ave. Penetraci?n and Maximo G?mez, right where we turn to go to Tony's house, that is the center of one of the first problems to arise...the water they didn't count on...the column can't be erected because of the mud that doesn't let the steel beams set on the concrete...(or something like that)
I don't even want to know how the project is going UNDERGROUND...did anybody ever even think what this whole thing is supposed to do? Carry tens of thousands of people everyday back and forth? What about the crime underground? If there is rampant crime on the streets at all hours of the day, can you imagine what it could be like on the subway???
It pains me to even think about those things...because I would love to see Santo Domingo prosper...but the people in charge have absolutely no sense of discipline to undertake a project of these dimensions...
MQ
Is your boyfriend an engineer or architect?
If you want, PM the answer.
-NALs
Metro????????????????????????????????
Nals---AGAIN, you beg the issue...
When will you admit the fact that THIS project is "off the cuff" insofar as any reasonable planning, environmental study, OR WHATEVER is concerned.
leonel's cronies were so anxious to get the thing underway that they forgot to do any planning at all.
Santo Domingo sits on the alluial deposition of THOUSANDS OF YEARS and it will be virtually impossible to construct any underground facility without building MILES & MILES of coffer dams to prevent the incursion of underground water into the construction site. One doesn't need to be an engineer to see that. The problem lies with the people who want to have a modern transportation AT ANY PRICE! And i'm convinced that price will be in the BILLIONS of US$s.
What do you REALLY THINK. And don't give me any of your SPIN DOCTOR rhetoric?
Texas Bill
Nals---AGAIN, you beg the issue...
When will you admit the fact that THIS project is "off the cuff" insofar as any reasonable planning, environmental study, OR WHATEVER is concerned.
leonel's cronies were so anxious to get the thing underway that they forgot to do any planning at all.
Santo Domingo sits on the alluial deposition of THOUSANDS OF YEARS and it will be virtually impossible to construct any underground facility without building MILES & MILES of coffer dams to prevent the incursion of underground water into the construction site. One doesn't need to be an engineer to see that. The problem lies with the people who want to have a modern transportation AT ANY PRICE! And i'm convinced that price will be in the BILLIONS of US$s.
What do you REALLY THINK. And don't give me any of your SPIN DOCTOR rhetoric?
Texas Bill
The mastermind of the metro is Diandino Pe?a, who was also the mastermind of the Isabela airport, where they had to spend several times the original figure because they chose inadequate ground. Not to say that the airport has not been certified by OACI nor FAA because of the same inadequate location chosen without adequate planning.
Long post, but by now it's expected of me...
I was interested in knowing if her boyfriend is an engineer or architect or if he knows some one who has inspected the site and such.
But, if we must have a debate (which has been long over due, I might add ), take a look at other metro projects that have been created in many cities around the world. Were these projects welcomed with open arms prior and during construction or were they criticized beyond belief?
Let's put it this way, if most metro projects would have gone by the desires of the critics, many cities that owes much of their growth and economic activity to such mass transit system would never had developed as such.
Does this mean I support the Metro? No.
Does this mean that simply because it worked/failed elsewhere that it will in SD? No.
What all of this does says is that all these criticisms are a normal part of developing such large scale projects, at least this is the case when we compare to similar projects created in other places whenever they were created.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Let's take a quick look into other examples:
London's Underground :
"In 1852, the City Terminus Company was formed, and the proposal was again placed in front of Parliament. Once again, it failed because of a lack of support."
"One very critical editorial in the The London Times likened the map of the Metropolitan railways to "an anatomical drawing with endless filaments of blue and red veins running from one blotchy centre to another." In this article we are told that no space is safe from the intrusion of the "iron monsters.""
Source: http://www.loyno.edu/~history/journal/1989-0/ladart.htm
Would modern Londoners appreciate their capital city and its development if the underground would have never been created? Such project was a life saver, particularly and literally during WW2.
New York City's Subway (early 1900):
"So inbred has become this idea of "Commercialism in Politics" and public life that every office-holder, be he honest or dishonest, is certain that his public acts are being watched by the two "R's"- reporters and reformers. When a contract involving the expenditure of thirty-five millions of public money has been carried out to the letter and practically on time, the wonderment of the public is so great as to excite general curiosity."
"The then masters of the transit situation in New York, led by the late William C. Whitney, declined to undertake the contract except on the basis of a franchise in perpetuity. Public disapproval prevented such a contract from being made. It seemed as if New York was doomed to another disappointment and that the old slogan, "Battery to Harlem in Fifteen Minutes," would be shouted for many years to come without a spadeful of earth being turned."
Source: http://www.nycsubway.org/articles/undergroundworld.html
Would modern day New Yorkers appreciate their metropolis if it was not for the subway? Would there be a modern New York if it was not for such project?
In this link we can see how people viewed the Washington DC metro:
http://www.alexmarshall.org/index.php?pageId=139
Then comes the issue of increasing traffic problems which a mass transit system could help solve:
http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/uu23me/uu23me0g.htm
And then the issue of lives lost due to car accidents alone, which if a mass transit system becomes successful, could lower those numbers:
http://www.iadb.org/idbamerica/archive/stories/2000/eng/jan00e/e200i.htm
And then we got the ecological effects roads have on the environment, which a mass transit system underground could help relieve the stress on the current grid and reduce the demand for more roads:
http://www.eco-action.org/dt/roads.html
The list goes on and on and on.
In the end my point is made: What is different about the Santo Domingo metro from other metros around the world? They all got criticisms of all sorts before and during their construction and afterward, people cannot imagine their lives without them! Not only that, but the economic and infrastructural development those cities experienced is greatly due to their metro mass transit system!
Every single one of those systems encountered difficulties and new problems and all of them got criticized and guess what? Evidence shows that those projects continued full fledge and damned be the person who proposes removing them today.
Santo Domingo has been growing at an astronomical rate since the 1970s. The city is growing and will continue to grow, considering that half the country's population still lives in the countryside and will, sooner or later opt for city living.
Does anyone have an idea of what this means for traffic in that city and the stress it will put on the current road grid?
-NALs
BTW, for those of you who don't like to read long posts, at the very least look into this web site link. It's The Institute for Transportation and Development Policy. Very interesting.
http://www.itdp.org/
I don't remember supporting the Metro project. I do remember supporting the island project, but never the metro.Texas Bill said:
I was interested in knowing if her boyfriend is an engineer or architect or if he knows some one who has inspected the site and such.
But, if we must have a debate (which has been long over due, I might add
), take a look at other metro projects that have been created in many cities around the world. Were these projects welcomed with open arms prior and during construction or were they criticized beyond belief? Let's put it this way, if most metro projects would have gone by the desires of the critics, many cities that owes much of their growth and economic activity to such mass transit system would never had developed as such.
Does this mean I support the Metro? No.
Does this mean that simply because it worked/failed elsewhere that it will in SD? No.
What all of this does says is that all these criticisms are a normal part of developing such large scale projects, at least this is the case when we compare to similar projects created in other places whenever they were created.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Let's take a quick look into other examples:
London's Underground :
"In 1852, the City Terminus Company was formed, and the proposal was again placed in front of Parliament. Once again, it failed because of a lack of support."
"One very critical editorial in the The London Times likened the map of the Metropolitan railways to "an anatomical drawing with endless filaments of blue and red veins running from one blotchy centre to another." In this article we are told that no space is safe from the intrusion of the "iron monsters.""
Source: http://www.loyno.edu/~history/journal/1989-0/ladart.htm
Would modern Londoners appreciate their capital city and its development if the underground would have never been created? Such project was a life saver, particularly and literally during WW2.
New York City's Subway (early 1900):
"So inbred has become this idea of "Commercialism in Politics" and public life that every office-holder, be he honest or dishonest, is certain that his public acts are being watched by the two "R's"- reporters and reformers. When a contract involving the expenditure of thirty-five millions of public money has been carried out to the letter and practically on time, the wonderment of the public is so great as to excite general curiosity."
"The then masters of the transit situation in New York, led by the late William C. Whitney, declined to undertake the contract except on the basis of a franchise in perpetuity. Public disapproval prevented such a contract from being made. It seemed as if New York was doomed to another disappointment and that the old slogan, "Battery to Harlem in Fifteen Minutes," would be shouted for many years to come without a spadeful of earth being turned."
Source: http://www.nycsubway.org/articles/undergroundworld.html
Would modern day New Yorkers appreciate their metropolis if it was not for the subway? Would there be a modern New York if it was not for such project?
In this link we can see how people viewed the Washington DC metro:
http://www.alexmarshall.org/index.php?pageId=139
Then comes the issue of increasing traffic problems which a mass transit system could help solve:
http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/uu23me/uu23me0g.htm
And then the issue of lives lost due to car accidents alone, which if a mass transit system becomes successful, could lower those numbers:
http://www.iadb.org/idbamerica/archive/stories/2000/eng/jan00e/e200i.htm
And then we got the ecological effects roads have on the environment, which a mass transit system underground could help relieve the stress on the current grid and reduce the demand for more roads:
http://www.eco-action.org/dt/roads.html
The list goes on and on and on.
In the end my point is made: What is different about the Santo Domingo metro from other metros around the world? They all got criticisms of all sorts before and during their construction and afterward, people cannot imagine their lives without them! Not only that, but the economic and infrastructural development those cities experienced is greatly due to their metro mass transit system!
Every single one of those systems encountered difficulties and new problems and all of them got criticized and guess what? Evidence shows that those projects continued full fledge and damned be the person who proposes removing them today.
Santo Domingo has been growing at an astronomical rate since the 1970s. The city is growing and will continue to grow, considering that half the country's population still lives in the countryside and will, sooner or later opt for city living.
Does anyone have an idea of what this means for traffic in that city and the stress it will put on the current road grid?
-NALs
BTW, for those of you who don't like to read long posts, at the very least look into this web site link. It's The Institute for Transportation and Development Policy. Very interesting.
http://www.itdp.org/
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Nals, I understand the issues against the Metro are not technical, but related to opportunity cost, that is, the capital allocated for the Metro would have been more socially cost-effective invested in educational, health, security assets, which are lacking in the DR.
The same company, no.BigMoose said:
But, in all fairness, it's probably on par with the companies that built the:
New York subway
London Underground
Paris Metropolitan
so on and so forth.
Taking into consideration the level of underdevelopment and inequality that existed in those metropolises at the time of the construction of such projects during the late 1800s, early 1900s. If those cities would have remained in the same economic situation to this day, they would be considered third world cities. Yet, they were building these projects that today is equated with the "first world", despite many of the metros being built during times of great poverty and inequality in their respective cities.
-NALs
This was precisely the issue when the metros in the respective cities I have referred to were built.Mirador said:
For example, this was New York City in the 1800s, before they started to construct the subway:
"Desperately poor immigrants packed into a city that still extended no farther north than 14th Street. The old constable system, which had policed New York since the days of the Dutch, was simply overwhelmed by a new set of policing problems: growing slums, rising crime and frequent rioting. There were so many public disturbances in 1834 that it became known as "The Year of the Riots." The worst problems centered on the Bowery and the notorious Five Points neighborhood which contemporaries called "a rendezvous for thieves and prostitutes" and which was said to be the scene of a murder a night."
In the middle of the Great Depression, these project took preminence:
"The biggest problem in the big city was traffic... Large scale use of stoplights didn't begin until the 1930s, and just in time, since that decade also saw the opening of the George Washington and Triborough bridges, the Lincoln and Queens-Midtown tunnels, the West Side Highway and the FDR Drive."
Source: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/3100/retro.html
Would you say that money would have been better spent on education, health, etc or on the subway that allowed the city to expand, prosper, and eventually uplift millions out of poverty by virtue of capitalistic ingenuity?
What's the difference between late 1800s New York City with inadequacies building an subway with money better spent elsewhere and early 2000s Santo Domingo with similiar inadequacies building a similar metro with money that could have been spent in other things?
If you ask me, it's not much different at all and yet, the subway proved to be highly beneficial for many of the great cities of the world.
-NALs
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Nals, are you trying to pull a reductio ad absurdum here? You know very well that financing for the NY City subway was financed by local NY city capital resources. Do you really believe that towns like Santiago, Puerto Plata, San Francisco de Macor?s, Azua, Barahona, etc, will be better off with the SD Metro? instead of having better education, health services, security, and other basic infrastructure in their own towns and regions? These towns are also be paying for the Santo Domingo Metro. Do I hear you yelling, "What's good for Santo Domingo, is good for the Country" ?
-
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Playing Devils Advocate.
It's All Keynesianism, Stupid.
Think of it as Leonel's Hoover Dam...his New Deal for Santo Domingo's many poor (and many poor Haitians coinsidently).
Furthermore, public works will always stimulate aneconomy faster than even the best written book; gotta love the multiplier effect:
i.e. an observation: almost every Dominican that can, sends his/her child to a private school, even those living in the poor Barrios. So he is indeed helping educate the poor - by providing employment for many of Santo Domingo "padres de familia."
Next he will build his Camp David in Jarabacoa....wait, Hipolito already did that..jajaja.
I too have doubt about its efficiency, effectiveness, and long term viability. i.e. what is been invested vis-a-vis what is going to be achieved. From an economical perpective, I think we are foregoing a too large of an opportunity cost with this one.
But I look at the bright side too- It's an inprovement over the privious administration's every-man-for-himself take-what-you-can pilage-the-government mentality --at least their "trying".
Mirador is Tha Man!
Very witty, :laugh:.
aegap,
the most limited of all specialists.
It's All Keynesianism, Stupid.
Mirador said:
Think of it as Leonel's Hoover Dam...his New Deal for Santo Domingo's many poor (and many poor Haitians coinsidently).
Furthermore, public works will always stimulate aneconomy faster than even the best written book; gotta love the multiplier effect:
i.e. an observation: almost every Dominican that can, sends his/her child to a private school, even those living in the poor Barrios. So he is indeed helping educate the poor - by providing employment for many of Santo Domingo "padres de familia."
Next he will build his Camp David in Jarabacoa....wait, Hipolito already did that..jajaja.
I too have doubt about its efficiency, effectiveness, and long term viability. i.e. what is been invested vis-a-vis what is going to be achieved. From an economical perpective, I think we are foregoing a too large of an opportunity cost with this one.
But I look at the bright side too- It's an inprovement over the privious administration's every-man-for-himself take-what-you-can pilage-the-government mentality --at least their "trying".
Mirador is Tha Man!
Very witty, :laugh:.
aegap,
the most limited of all specialists.
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Frankly, i would give my support 100% to the Metro if it had not been rammed down the throats of an already bleeding society in which there is totally inadequate infrastructure at all levels and which is already overtaxed to feed the voracious apetite of PUBLIC OFFICIALS for PUBLIC MONEYS.
There is a half-completed hospital sitting rotting in Manzanillo which was BEGUN during Leonel's FIRST Administration, worked on for 2 weeks (erecting a sign by Hipolito claiming credit) by Hipolito's Administration and STILL remains a weed and tree overgrown site that is beginingto fall down due to exposure, poor construction and poor materials.
It's when I think of projects like this and many (178, I believe were reported) others that beg to be completed for the service of the population that I speak out in righteous indignation over the folly of the Dominican Governmental and political system.
I happen to like Dominicans (I married one) and the country. It just infuriates me to see the people bamboozled because the political system has kept them ignorant of what they could become if properly and effectively educated. This society is a modern day Feudalistic Society kept in thrall and ignorance deliberately by the political system and the people that populate it. This is NOT a Democracy that I can recognize under ANY definition of that word. The DR is doomed to be a "Third-World" Nation far into the forseeable future and that's until the system changes from within, which I don't think will happen in my lifetime (and since I'm 79, that lifetime could be just a very shorttime).
Nals, I know you love your country and I support your efforts to ameliorate all the critisism being blown at you and others over the way things are run. Just consider this...As a citizen, it is your responsibility to make every effort to correct the ills within your country. The way it is run, the way the political system, the judicial system, the way your money is spent, etc. You obviously belong to the "elite" segment of Dominican Society. Make your voice heard. Begin the first step toward a truly representative Democracy, whereby All segments of society can enjoy the fruits of this dynamic economy. Demand that there be complete transparancy in all government operations from the lowest employee to the top dog. And when one of these entities makes a booboo, make it public to such a degree that no oneelse will dare do the same thing for fear of public retribution in some form. Try to convince those poor dumb slobs (what else can they be called?) that by taking bribes, shamming their jobs and the like, the only person they're shaming is themselves and their country.
If things don't change for the better along these lines soon, the invested capital and "old money" will fly like the Concorde to better and more equal areas. Investors just won't take being screwed for very long.
Texas Bill
Texas Bill
There is a half-completed hospital sitting rotting in Manzanillo which was BEGUN during Leonel's FIRST Administration, worked on for 2 weeks (erecting a sign by Hipolito claiming credit) by Hipolito's Administration and STILL remains a weed and tree overgrown site that is beginingto fall down due to exposure, poor construction and poor materials.
It's when I think of projects like this and many (178, I believe were reported) others that beg to be completed for the service of the population that I speak out in righteous indignation over the folly of the Dominican Governmental and political system.
I happen to like Dominicans (I married one) and the country. It just infuriates me to see the people bamboozled because the political system has kept them ignorant of what they could become if properly and effectively educated. This society is a modern day Feudalistic Society kept in thrall and ignorance deliberately by the political system and the people that populate it. This is NOT a Democracy that I can recognize under ANY definition of that word. The DR is doomed to be a "Third-World" Nation far into the forseeable future and that's until the system changes from within, which I don't think will happen in my lifetime (and since I'm 79, that lifetime could be just a very shorttime).
Nals, I know you love your country and I support your efforts to ameliorate all the critisism being blown at you and others over the way things are run. Just consider this...As a citizen, it is your responsibility to make every effort to correct the ills within your country. The way it is run, the way the political system, the judicial system, the way your money is spent, etc. You obviously belong to the "elite" segment of Dominican Society. Make your voice heard. Begin the first step toward a truly representative Democracy, whereby All segments of society can enjoy the fruits of this dynamic economy. Demand that there be complete transparancy in all government operations from the lowest employee to the top dog. And when one of these entities makes a booboo, make it public to such a degree that no oneelse will dare do the same thing for fear of public retribution in some form. Try to convince those poor dumb slobs (what else can they be called?) that by taking bribes, shamming their jobs and the like, the only person they're shaming is themselves and their country.
If things don't change for the better along these lines soon, the invested capital and "old money" will fly like the Concorde to better and more equal areas. Investors just won't take being screwed for very long.
Texas Bill
Texas Bill
Mixed feelings have I.......
About this project. on the one hand, it is likely the money could have been better spent (as Mirador noted) on sorely needed social programs. But, as it's typical in DR, They're neither very effective nor long-lasting.
On the other hand, this break-neck-speed, money pit project of Leonel's fantasy, will probably do us some good in the long run. Why? because of its real potential as a people mover. because, if it works, it may just be the right "tool" at the right time to push and modernize our economy.
In any case, Because way too much $$$ has already been invested to back out now, we are now committed to finishing and making it work.
The repercussions, Its ramifications, will now oblige us to build power plants to supply the energy needed to run this behemoth. The crazy thing is that this folly of a project, may prove to be the solution to our national energy crisis by serendipity. Haaa...... Go figure!
About this project. on the one hand, it is likely the money could have been better spent (as Mirador noted) on sorely needed social programs. But, as it's typical in DR, They're neither very effective nor long-lasting.
On the other hand, this break-neck-speed, money pit project of Leonel's fantasy, will probably do us some good in the long run. Why? because of its real potential as a people mover. because, if it works, it may just be the right "tool" at the right time to push and modernize our economy.
In any case, Because way too much $$$ has already been invested to back out now, we are now committed to finishing and making it work.
The repercussions, Its ramifications, will now oblige us to build power plants to supply the energy needed to run this behemoth. The crazy thing is that this folly of a project, may prove to be the solution to our national energy crisis by serendipity. Haaa...... Go figure!