2 years to go.

Chris

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Oct 21, 2002
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I have this thought in my mind and I realise it is a very naive thought .. but damn, Fernandez is good at flitting alll over the place and attracting positive press and by the looks of things, positive investment.

Now we're going into a period of constitutional amendment that seems to want to address the endemic corruption problems and in the back of my mind is something that says, Uh Oh! something's fishy.

We still see corruption excesses all over the place, they cannot get it together to get the paperwork and legal requirements in a state to implement DR-Cafta, we have continual police force excesses, document forgeries being run very successfully out of jails and so on and so on.

Tell me, is Fernandez and all his grandiose plans going to really make a difference in the next 2 years to go? Or is it simply status quo accompanied by brilliant words and grandiose schemes? Is he working harder to obtain his next job than to maintain his current job?

Are the grandiose schemes going to go uncompleted and hang about half-done like so many others? Where is Golo when we need him? Can someone assess for us... Is the level of corruption going to simply poof... disappear with the constitutional amendments? Somehow even I cannot quite buy that. Is this country going to get onto a more solid footing? What is really happening?
 

bob saunders

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Jan 1, 2002
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To overcome a culture of corruption, takes more than words and willpower. The 300+ years of Spanish culture of coruption will take several generations to change, but it can be done. I believe that they(PLD) will try to clean up corruption to a certain extent and the more the international community keeps the pressure up, the more coruption will be eliminated. The amount of damage created by the 4 years of PRD government will take a long time to recover from. Better Come solo, than Come todo.
 

Ken

Platinum
Jan 1, 2002
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I think that Fernandez is serious and that time is right. He has the majority in the Congress, the leaders of the Catholic church are calling for action against corruption, the polls show that this is the major concern of the people, and foreign governments and agencies on which the country depends os investment and financial assistance are demanding action against corruption. It is a win-win situation for Fernandez. True he has less then 2 years until the election in May, 2008, but if it can be seen that he is making pirogress, he will have another 4 years to continue the wor
 

Rocky

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Apr 4, 2002
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Crystal ball...

I just consulted my crystall ball, and it says the following.
"Leonel will do better than Hippolito."
That's all it said, I'm afraid.
PS: It also mentioned that Mangu Minute will yield more political influence than the newspapers, within the next 20 years.
 

Tuan

New member
Aug 28, 2004
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Excelent post, Chris! And there is no answer to your questions, but "poof" will never come. There are forces in the country far more powerful than LF, and the best he can do is put the economy on an even keel -- which he's done -- and then expand it and the middle class with it. The hope is that a broad middle class will prevent back-sliding, but that didn't help in 2000, what?
Just pray the economy strengthens so the FR and Chavistas don't feed on a depressed DR.
And Sauders: 300+ years of Spanish tradition is nothing after 800 years of Arab masters....
 

El Vegano

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Apr 20, 2006
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Corruption is cultural.

Corruption is a human condition and it appears to be more rampant in the poorer countries of Latin America, Africa and Asia.

In the DR, it is deeply imbedded in every facet of society, especially in the mindset that the government is there to provide jobs and benefits for those in power.

Of the 3 major parties in the DR, the PLD is the most atypical and by far 'cleaner' than the other two. The PRD has always thought of the country as its pie to divide among its members and has gone as far as to split the country into a ridiculous amount of provinces, in order to obtain more benefits by increasing the number of governors, senators, deputies, mayors, etc. The PRSC is not too far behind in this selfish behavior.

There are no viable alternatives to the PLD at this moment since President Fernandez possesses many excellent qualities that put him far above his competition.
 

Keith R

"Believe it!"
Jan 1, 2002
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I'm fairly sure I have told this story before, so it's probably in the archives somewhere, but I couldn't find it, so here goes (again)...

We lived in the DR during Leonel's first presidency, and he had declared eradicating corruption a top priotity then, too. My wife was an officer at the DR subsidiary of a American company. A new CEO of the sub was appointed who had done prior stints in other developing nations, including a Latin American nation. He held meetings with the chief and asst. chief of each dept. to "chat in private" about their perspectives about the company and operating conditions in the DR. So my wife and her boss had their turn.

One of the CEO's questions was, Leonel seems to be serious about combatting corruption, do you think he'll succeed. My wife's boss, a 20-30 yr Dominican veteran of the company, gave a bland, politically neutral answer. My wife, Dominican born and raised but having spent 20 yrs in the US and American corporate culture and accustomed to speaking her mind, said no way, it will take at least a generation to diminish corruption in the DR. The CEO, surprised, asked why she would say that. She replied because all Dominicans living today have never known anything else, so until they pass and a full generation is raised expecting the possibility of clean government, corruption will remain a fact of Dominican life.

I fear she was right. Leonel, for all his talk, has never seriously pursued prosecution of the big figures of corruption from prior PRD and PRSC administrations, and he turns a blind eye to it in his own party. In short, he has yet to show that his commitment goes well beyond promises and public relations stunts.
 

rellosk

Silver
Mar 18, 2002
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Keith R said:
She replied because all Dominicans living today have never known anything else, so until they pass and a full generation is raised expecting the possibility of clean government, corruption will remain a fact of Dominican life.
Excellent point. It will take a generation, but it can be done with the right leadership.
 

Conchman

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Jul 3, 2002
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I totally agree, he is willfully surrounded by people who he knows engage in corruption. He cannot do anything about these people because they helped him get elected.
 

Mirador

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Apr 15, 2004
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rellosk said:
Excellent point. It will take a generation, but it can be done with the right leadership.

First the right leadership, then the current generation will have to be sacrificed. Did Pol Pot try something along these lines for Cambodia?
 

JRR

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Dec 9, 2004
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Atleast a generation!

I think that comment took some very sharp insight! Leonel seems to be trying to change things here and looks like the changes are starting to show. However, I beleive he has taken on to grandiose a task! Subway, education, cyberparks and industry, corruption, CAFTA-DR, world investment
.....it is more than he can handle himself and he does not have others without the typical DR mentality!

I have said it before.....they don't beleive in a tomorrow. This is still a very young deomcratic society. They just got rid of a dictator a short time ago when you think about it and that generation, knows nothing else. Corruption was a way of life and survival in this new world.

It will take atleast a generation of living in a funtioning economy and a mental capacity for people in this country to realize that there is future here!

JRR....my 2 pesos
 
Jan 5, 2006
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LF and the PLD are not changing a thing! :( He is very adept at making nice speeches and painting pie in the sky, but in the end, that's all it is. There are people in his current government that were accused of corruption during his first government, which says a lot about the true intentions of all the so called efforts to root out corruption. You can also look at the metro project and all the secretive behavior surrounding such a major project, and I wouldn't call it a stretch to think that the country is being raped while a few are becoming mega-rich in the process. Does anyone have any doubt that LF is fully aware of this?

As others have pointed out, the culture of blatant corruption in DR does not know party lines. This being the case, the current state of affairs will be practically impossible to change as long as one of the major parties is in office.
 

rellosk

Silver
Mar 18, 2002
4,169
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Mirador said:
First the right leadership, then the current generation will have to be sacrificed.
Care to explain how they will be sacrificed?
ReactionJunkie said:
Did Pol Pot try something along these lines for Cambodia?
Comparing Pol Pot to Fernandez makes me wonder why I bother responding to any of your posts.
 

Mirador

On Permanent Vacation!
Apr 15, 2004
3,563
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rellosk said:
Care to explain how they will be sacrificed? Comparing Pol Pot to Fernandez makes me wonder why I bother responding to any of your posts.


They will have to sacrifice by changing their ways. The first generation will fight it, not understanding the social benefits of the demanding discipline and organization required for the new social order.

I did not compare Leonel Fernandez to Pol Pot. The image was raised with regards to the concept of leadership. Pol Pot decided first he was the right leadership for Cambodia, and imposed his authority on the entire Cambodian society through violence and terror. To believe that a corrupt society can democratically determine the best leadership for its people, is like trying to lift yourself by your own bootstraps.
 

Chris

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Oct 21, 2002
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Mirador said:
To believe that a corrupt society can democratically determine the best leadership for its people, is like trying to lift yourself by your own bootstraps.

This is a good statement Mirador and I think it quite goes to the heart of the matter. How can a corrupt society 'uncorrupt' themselves if it is an endemic way of life?
 

bilijou

New member
Jun 13, 2006
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Culture of Corruption

First time poster here. Glad to find a place where I can have an intelligent discussion about my country (in English nontheless).

Anyway, I think that the culture of corruption in DR is a far bigger problem than the corruption itself. I've been having a recurring conversation for the past year.
I walk into a Bodega in the Bronx, and overhear "what DR needs is a MANO DURA!"
You've probably heard or even participated in this conversation before.
For some reason, the conversation always leads to Candelier. They say that he will chop off the hands of any politician that steals, and that will be the best for the country.

Thats when I usually step in and say, "remember that Trujillo started out in the Police as well. He might deal with the corruption issue, but in a corrupt way."

What follows is worship for the Dictator.
"None of this Vagabuderia would be happening if he was alive."
"Nobody would dare steal."
"He kept the peso to the dollar, 1 to 1"

Usually disgusted by their ignorance that I end the conversation immediately. I would say that this is the consensus amongst middle to lower class Dominicans, ending corruption by corrupt means. (most of you will agree with me that this wont lead to anything good)

The culture of corruption in DR is so deep, that dominicans are unconsciously throwing corruption at the corruption problem.

-BJ
 

bilijou

New member
Jun 13, 2006
216
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First time poster here. Glad to find a place where I can have an intelligent discussion about my country (in English nontheless).

Anyway, I think that the culture of corruption in DR is a far bigger problem than the corruption itself. I've been having a recurring conversation for the past year.
I walk into a Bodega in the Bronx, and overhear "what DR needs is a MANO DURA!"
You've probably heard or even participated in this conversation before.
For some reason, the conversation always leads to Candelier. They say that he will chop off the hands of any politician that steals, and that will be the best for the country.

Thats when I usually step in and say, "remember that Trujillo started out in the Police as well. He might deal with the corruption issue, but in a corrupt way."

What follows is worship for the Dictator.
"None of this Vagabuderia would be happening if he was alive."
"Nobody would dare steal."
"He kept the peso to the dollar, 1 to 1"

Usually disgusted by their ignorance that I end the conversation immediately. I would say that this is the consensus amongst middle to lower class Dominicans, ending corruption by corrupt means. (most of you will agree with me that this wont lead to anything good)

The culture of corruption in DR is so deep, that dominicans are unconsciously throwing corruption at the corruption problem.

-BJ
 

Rick Snyder

Silver
Nov 19, 2003
2,321
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First off let me start by welcoming Bilijou to DR1. We need more Dominicans on this board and welcome your presence to these discussions.

The problems confessed by all of you gives me the indication that you fail to understand or forget how a democracy functions. Just because an elected president promises to try to bring a thing about doesn’t mean that he can wave a magic wand and all is done. In the same token even with a “decree” option he can not go againt the constitution with said decrees. There’s that magic word “constitution “ again.

As the DR is a 3 party system and as till 16 Aug 06 both houses of congress have always been ruled and controlled by the PRD I don’t understand how anyone could have expected positive change to take place. Especially if you read the post #6 by El Vegano as he explained it very well.

I think it would behove everyone to take a hard look at the Dominican constitution and try to analysis what portions of that document are detrimental to the proper functioning of this government and what might need to be changed. If the document that controls all basic functions of a government is properly written without loop-holes then everything else over that is icing on the cake.

Leonel has proposed voter recall in the constitution and if properly written and implemented this is one way to insure that representavives function for the populace as it is a way to send the message to those representatives that they are not automatically in that office for 4 years with the ability to do as they wish but rather as the populace wishes.

The average Dominican has always lived under the present and past circumstances and therefore knows nothing different. It is because of this that many of you are saying that it will take a generation to bring about change and I don’t believe this. Leonel having lived and having been educated out of country knows of a different way. So too do people such as Mirador, Nal’s, Bilijou, Deelt and a host of others that are Dominican. As Leonel has decided to get involved in bringing about positive change in the DR so too can many other knowledgable Dominicans and therefore do away with waiting for one or two generations to maybe change their mindset.

Rick
 
Jan 5, 2006
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Rick, let's get back to what I pointed out. How can anyone expect LF to seriously root out corruption when he has appointed people to his current government that were involved in corrupt acts during his previous administration? Isn't that saying one thing and doing another?

Just like every other politician, LF got to the top because a lot of powerful people backed him up financially and by campaigning for him, and in exchange they expect some sort of return for their "investment". Again, let's not think that there are not acts of corruption openly taking place within this administration and all with the blessing of LF.