Dominican Upper Class-----no Class?

Well, traditionally, the Spanish concept of social class is similar to the one described by the OP. People could lose their money and still retain their social prestige. It was equivalent to having good credit today. A good family name and reputation. You were born into a class, just the way you are born into a family. Of course, you had to guard your reputation and family name, for you could bring shame and dishonor as well by your actions and, if that was the case, your standing in society would suffer and your peers would no longer accept you.

Class in class in whatever country

I believe that you must distinguish between having CLASS and being in a different CLASS...
You can have $$$ and no CLASS but be in a HIGH or MID CLASS category.
The class system (like in India) is based mostly based on $$$. The poor cannot afford an education, condemming them to remain in the class structure they where born in.
I think that what makes the difference is education and upbringing.
Do you not believe that, if a family considered lower class because of $$$ suddenly becomes High class because of money, that their life structure will change...Making it easier for their children to have CLASS based on the education they can now afford to give them, and the possibilities this education will in turn give them and their children...

Class and money!

I think the last poster has headed in the right direction.

Upper classes true for the most part is where you are born into. In previous times you could have a obleman that stilol had no money.....but he still had class! They go hand in hand becuase they have the opportunity of a cultured and well educated upbringing, wheter through schools or home environment.

In the US there is a great deal of "neuvo riche" from the baby boomers. That does no make them upper class or give them class. Just makes them have lots of disposable income.

there are plenty of atheltes that are ery wealthy, entertainers, etc, but have no class...just money. Other than use it to show off or get frunk, they have don't know how to spend it with class. There are many of the various lottery winners that having won millions of dollars, still never changed their lifestyles. They know no other way of living.

in short, money doesn't give you class or buy you class or get youinto the upper class. If you have the education , the background, the culture, the upbringing, to know what to do with that money, that will get you and keep you in the upper classes!

My usul 2 cents
JRR

suzannel said:

I believe that you must distinguish between having CLASS and being in a different CLASS...

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Whatever social class Dominicans fall into or think they fall into, HAVING class and CARRYING yourself with class does NOT come along with a higher social class in this country; in general. On the contrary, there is more of an aloof attitude and a feeling of entitlement which leads to very poorly towards anyone who they think is "below" them. Additionally, good manners, etc. are virtually non-existant so put Dominicans of a higher class in a room with each other and they will still display very poor etiquitte, be very loud, interrupt each other constantly, etc.

Oh, and of course, look for every possibly chance to screw each other in a business sense.

Larry

You know when you encounter it.

JRR said:

.... money doesn't give you class or buy you class or get you into the upper class....

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Well, there's the 'newly rich' class.
Those people have very limited subjects for conversation, besides money of course.
Many of their sentences would start with 'I got...'.
Hence boring and pathetic.

Real class does not need that and certainly has something to do with manners, good reputation, honesty, polite restraint, education and a certain life style (resulting from the features mentioned).

Not much found nowadays...

Nationality does not matter; although there are societies where money matters everything and virtues are nothing.

Yeah, Dominicans like the American way of life... irate:

m'frog

There is class and then there is class.
Money cannot buy class, contrary to what one peron has posted. In India, class is by birth, just like in England of old. No amount of money can obtain a higher class status for an "untouchable" ....Economic status perhaps, but not social status. India is currently struggling against this system, and it is a long, slow process.

In the US, there is a group of people that you never see or hear much about, that are the social elite, the one's that have the DDD for the White House or the Secretary of State. Often the product of good ol' XIX century robber baron economics, often times just very old families who were in the colonies.

No celebrities, athletes, stars need apply. No New Money magnates are "really" accepted until they PROVE that they are class rather than classy.

In the DR, with so little history, so few families of Old Money, it seems that there is a rapture with the money of the Sosas, Guerreros, Martinez, Ramirez and others, none of whom are accepted into Society or the Country Clubs.

Exceptions: Julian Javier, his son Stanley; Winston Llenas, the three Alou Brothers. Why? They were "gente" before baseball, and have stayed "gente" after baseball. Juan Marichal and Tony Peña are marginal. Marichal, as a Hall of Famer, has merits and his behavior throughout his life has been exemplary. Tony is well on his way to achieving similar status, but time will tell.

Regarding some of the money-people (Baez, Elías and others of similar ilk) they are tolerated because they impose themselves on society, but people murmur behind their backs. Others, like the Hazourys, are being judged and the Rainieris are pretty much a lock because of their behavior over many decades.

Is the class system in the DR as hard cast as England or India? No way. People of talent, with decency and "couth" are widely accepted, even with open arms.

In the case of the Original Poster, the young girl was, herself, quite low class and easily impressed. Anything above her own status was obviously "High Class" ....

HB 50¢ worth this morning...

As always HB you make so much sense......

I would say that in the old Spanish Empire, including the Americas, the concept of social class was closer to that of India and England. Things have evolved and changed, including a middle class and economic progress for many. But, socially speaking, there are poor people who have become wealthy in some Latin American countries and still regard themselves to be part of "the people" or los pobres, even though they may have more money than others who enjoy a higher social status. In the US, the only situation that, perhaps, would be similar is the concept of "minorities". A poor Chicano from East LA who makes it and becomes educated and is not disadvantaged at all, still sees himself and is seen by others as member of that minority group, with all the connotations it carries. A rich or educated black person is still seen by many as just a another black and may still be the victim of prejudice. So, in that sense, there is also something similar to a caste system in the US, although not officially and the situation is improving with every passing decade. In the US, some people who were classified as "black", tried to escape the stigma attached to that classification by passing into the white population. In a class system, some people who were born into the lower socio economic classes tried to escape that stigma by obtaining an education, marrying up and hiding their origin. Some people discovered that if they had the appearance of a higher class person and learned to speak and act accordingly, they could succesfully pretend they were born into that class.

Some societies do tend to be more egalitarian than others, for example, it seems to me that, socially speaking, today's Puerto Rico is very egalitarian. I did not sense snobism or separation of people based on the traditional concept of class, even though there are still many who are poorer that the average. Of course, I am not categorically stating that this is the case, I never conducted any studies on the subject, it is just my own impression.

Also, just by looking at the social pages of some Latin American newspapers, it seems to me that in Panama there seems to be a weaker adherance to the traditional concept of who made it into those pages since I see a lot of mixed-race individuals, Chinese, blacks and mestizos in the "High Society" section, unlike Listin Diario's magazine. Of course, not everyone featured in Listin Diario's social pages was born into the upper class, but they appear as if they were. That brings up the issue of reality vs appearance, hypocresy, snobism, racism and many other things which are highly controversial and do play a part in the perception of who belongs to which social class.

Interesting points here about social classes and behaviour. Every society has its criteria of class distinction, and contrary to some suggestions it is not the closed Old World systems that are based on noble appearance and behaviour, as they were simple based on beiong born noble. One simply was upper class because of being born with an aristocratic title. Of course there were a was a whole set of rules of behaviour and appearance, but if you were part of the aristocracy and behaved like a dork and were too stupid to learn Latin, you still remained upper class. And someone born middle class but behaving exactly to the rules would still be a snob. So it was not only impossible to buy your way into the upper classes but also impossible to behave your way in by acting accoring to the rules of the upper classes.
I'm not sure about India, but in England and the rest of Europe that system has gone, apart from a few families. It has been replaced, as much earlier in the New World, by the much more open system of distinction based on behaviour, education, etc. It is interesting if also in places like the Dominican Republic or New England a few old families still maintain the old system of being upper class by birth, although logical as this is what distinguishes them from others. Whether and old-style hereditary English baron or Spanish Duque would accept them as being part of their upper class is another matter. It would be even more interesting if the New World upper class society becomes more closed than its Old World equivalents. Maybe the Listin Diario society pages are a nice indicator; at least in the British Hello magazine and the Spanish Hola there is plenty of room for pop stars, actors and athletes.

Power corrupts........

No matter where you go in this world, you'd always find inherent layers or class divisions within its people. There's no getting away from it, even in supposedly classless societies i.e. Cuba.
If we define class based on money and family status; at best, the upper class will behave with integrity, fairness and tact, something seldom seen in DR.
At worse, most would have reached the economic heights there by fraud, thievery and abuse of power, something all too common throughout DR's history.
So, if we judge class based strictly on economic power, you'd find very little of it in DR.
Class, however, if it were to be defined by honesty, humility, good behavior and respect for other people, is alive and well in most poor to middle-class people I've met in DR.
"Classy" people can be found in all layers of society even in the very rich. Those, however, that think money or status automatically imparts class, have no understanding of what it truly is.

juancarlos said:

Some societies do tend to be more egalitarian than others, for example, it seems to me that, socially speaking, today's Puerto Rico is very egalitarian. I did not sense snobism or separation of people based on the traditional concept of class, even though there are still many who are poorer that the average. Of course, I am not categorically stating that this is the case, I never conducted any studies on the subject, it is just my own impression.

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Excellent post Juancarlos,PR is more egalitarian than the DR but IMO not by as much as it would appear to outsiders. They are as class conscious as their counterparts anywhere, but seem egalitarian compared to Dominicans of similar social standing.

I do agree that there is a sense of social empowerment among the Puerto Rican middle classes that is not seen, for example in the DR where people tend to be more submissive / traditional /"keep their place". Few in the DR are able to openly achieve this kind of self-sense of egalitarianism and not disturb expectations, in fact such attempts will often be interpreted by the targeted audience as false entitlement or blatant 'social climbing' as seen in the group of people often referred to colloquially as "chopos con cuartos". Trying too hard to seek acceptance has the opposite effect among the perennial members of the local "pretty people" or fashionable society.

In PR, people mingle as in "juntos pero no revueltos". The upper classes are not as openly harsh about distinctions with those considered to belong to the lower classes. However some of the most snobbish socialites I've met in my life are Sanjuaneros or Ponce?os de "alta casta" that can be as archaic in their views as those from the DR. But again, when compared to the prevalent self-image of their DR counterparts, I agree with your assessment.

In the DR the upper classes keep drawing the line and have a near obsession with making those lines clear. Then we also have something akin to what Nals called the colonial mentality still in plain sight of all in the DR, where there is a shameful degree of obsequious servilism from people who consider themselves lower than the upper class and in fact act that way. So it becomes a self-perpetuating paradigm.

BTW, Hillbily brought some good examples of the flexibility that even the DR elites are capable of making to accomodate some rich celebrities that do make it into "high society" based on good manners and not given to lavish, imprudent lifestyles and expenditures. Other posters explained how some "aristocrats" without money manage to keep their hight status regardless of economic achievements. So, IMO there is mobility -up and down - but it is far from what we see in societies that have achieved general higher educational levels.

- Tordok