Nuclear energy on the way?!

drbill

New member
Dec 3, 2005
358
0
0
According to today's Hoy, Argentina's ambassador reveals that his country is discussing the sale of nuclear reactors to the DR, as a solution to the energy problem.

I'm going to catch my breath and read this again.
 
Last edited:

ZEUS

Bronze
Feb 14, 2003
577
26
0
We can't handle a candle, let alone a nuck reactor.. Lord have mercy.
 

Don Juan

Living Brain Donor
Dec 5, 2003
856
0
0
And why not?

Sometime ago we had an interesting debate on this very subject. Most posters felt we, Dominicans, were not up to task to tangle with this technology because of our lack of responsibility, know-how, reliability, etc.
Some felt nuclear power was more than we could handle and were better off with simpler coal-fired plants.
Whatever the power source, it brings its own inherent benefits and liabilities even hydroelectric. But we must get on with it and start building something!
It's all too obvious that the Argents are trying to make extra bucks selling something that may or may not be good thing for us. But it is also very obvious that we need to produce enough mega-watts to get our country in gear so that we can compete in the global economy.
I think we're now a the very cusp of becoming- due to cafta and improving infrastructure- a nation of great potential to join the ranks of the first world nations.
Once we overcome the energy inertia and get our economy rolling, it will feed and perpetuate itself as long as we keep stoking the fire of progress.
Nuclear or not, we're not going anywhere until black-outs become a thing of the past.
 

canadian bob

Bronze
Jan 16, 2002
641
0
0
91
Research is underway to harness electricity by using great temperature differences in the ocean between surface & the seabed. Some of the deepest water in the world exists just north of the DR, so the potential for a big temperature difference is present. I'll try to dig up the references. Canadian Bob.
 

Robert

Stay Frosty!
Jan 2, 1999
20,574
341
83
dr1.com
http://www.yes2wind.com/ Why dont they have wind farms in the D/R its very windy by the sea in the north

Expensive!

Plus due to the corruption here the generators are not going to let someone come in and setup a wind farm.

Look at todays news story "Same old, same old".

-----------------------------------

In spite of four lengthy meetings and several workshops and forums, the situation facing the electricity sector is unchanged. According to El Caribe, President Leonel Fernandez attended the latest meeting last February, and he will preside over a fifth meeting next week. The recent surge in blackouts attributed to fuel saving by the Independent Power Providers (IPPs) has only deepened the crisis that affects the entire population in one way or another. The next meeting is scheduled for 8 and 9 September in Juan Dolio.
Part of the problem resides in the fact that the electricity distributors (EDEs) fear that the application of the General Law of Electricity (128-01) will spur a stampede to auto-generation units for many of their best paying customers, and these EDEs have pressurized the Superintendent of Electricity to increase the minimum needed to qualify for non-regulated status, as stated in comments by Marisol Vicens and Eduardo Valcarcel over the last few weeks.
In addition, as reported by El Caribe, the Dominican Republic is the fourth worst nation in the world when it comes to loss of energy over transmission lines or though thievery. Only Haiti, the Congo and Moldova are worse off. This conclusion is contained in the report prepared by the Adam Smith consultancy firm commissioned by President Fernandez. In 2000, the nation was the ninth worst; in 2002 it occupied the seventh worst position and is currently the fourth worst nation with respect to the loss of energy in the distribution system. The DR easily scores twice the average for all of Latin America in this category and only Haiti (worse) and Nicaragua (slightly better) are also in the top ten of this ranking. Haiti is second worst and Nicaragua is ninth worst. Figures show that the EDEs purchase US$90 million in electricity from the IPPs but are able to collect US$45 million from their customers.
In the DR, there are many pockets of population where everyone pays for the service. These include the touristic areas of Punta Cana-Bavaro area (La Altagracia province), Las Terrenas (Samana province), and even Pedernales, capital of the poorest province in the country, that reports a 95% payment schedule. In these towns, blackouts are few, proving the problems can be resolved.
 

drbill

New member
Dec 3, 2005
358
0
0
All silliness aside, I agree with Don Juan that this is the challenge facing the country.

Is nuclear energy actually less expensive per kwh?

If, as Robert points out, the real elephant in the room is the ability to collect for service, does the source matter?
 

Dolores1

DR1
May 3, 2000
8,215
37
48
www.
I doubt this will be more than a firecracker set off to distract Dominicans from our real problems. Maybe in the style of the artificial island and the loan for police cars, that had everyone entertained while the government slipped through the EUR106 million loan for the metro.
 

azabache

New member
Apr 25, 2006
451
0
0
Nuclear Energy

The very thought of nuclear energy in the DR scares the crap out of me.
One accident could involve the whole country.
 

Keith R

"Believe it!"
Jan 1, 2002
2,984
36
48
www.temasactuales.com
Nuclear power is here and here and wind power is here and here to name a few.

Rick

Rick, you forgot the links to the Green Team blog entries on the wind question:
http://www.dr1.com/blogs/entry.php?u=environment&e_id=1390
http://www.dr1.com/blogs/entry.php?u=environment&e_id=1962

and solar here: http://www.dr1.com/blogs/entry.php?u=environment&e_id=1844


The Green Team has also discussed at length possible the overall panorama of alternative energy sources for the DR:
http://www.dr1.com/blogs/entry.php?u=environment&e_id=1953
http://www.dr1.com/blogs/entry.php?u=environment&e_id=1956

And Canadian Bob, I'm working on a blog entry on the very issue you raise. It has possibilities, but the DR government so far does not seem at all interested in exploring them....

Regards,
Keith
 

Keith R

"Believe it!"
Jan 1, 2002
2,984
36
48
www.temasactuales.com
One accident would involve the whole country.

Gregg

There's that. And there's the DR's poor record on workplace health and safety. It's enforcement record on emissions. It's lack of facilities to handle dangerous wastes. It's poor security record, if you want to consider the security (terrorism) dimension. And where in the world would you safely put this facility, that it would have the huge quantities of cooling water it needs, the safety from natural disasters, and not pose a risk to a metropolitan area? And who outside the DR are you going to pay large sums to take and "reprocess" your spent fuel rods?

Do I need to keep going?

Don Juan, have you so soon forgotten the absymal environment and safety example of the accidental gas release 2 yrs ago at Refindomsa -- a GOVERNMENT-owned facility???!!!

Juan, please, I have met you, like you and we have conversed many times, so I know that you are too smart a man than to suggest with total seriousness that nuclear is the way for the DR to go. I know that the DR needs to do something, but I firmly believe nuclear is not the appropriate "something" for the DR.

The mere fact that the idea was first raised by Hippo during a trip to Argentina should be enough to give you or anyone else pause....
 

drbill

New member
Dec 3, 2005
358
0
0
So, even if the whole operation were safely and efficiently executed by Norwegian engineers and incestuously financed, would nuclear energy tend to:

improve production/reliability?
reduce energy costs?
permit us to be impolite to Sr. Chavez?
... other?
 

Chris

Gold
Oct 21, 2002
7,951
28
0
www.caribbetech.com
So, even if the whole operation were safely and efficiently executed by Norwegian engineers and incestuously financed, would nuclear energy tend to:

improve production/reliability?
reduce energy costs?
permit us to be impolite to Sr. Chavez?
... other?

Even if the Norwegian engineers do it for us, we still have no ability to:

distribute it to where it is needed without losing a fair portion on the way
get people to pay for it without 'estimating' the bill

Generating is one thing, distributing is another, billing and receiving payment for it, is another.

My neighbor, who does not lack material goods, broke his meter the other day, not by accident. He actually wacked the decorative cement pole that the meter was installed on in front of his house, knocked it down, and connected his feed directly without passing through the meter. The meter is lying on the pole, which is lying in the grass. At the next meter reading, the meter readers may report it. Someone may just come out to fix it and install a new meter in the next two or three months. Or they may not.
 

Hillbilly

Moderator
Jan 1, 2002
18,948
514
113
All of the above.

Nuclear energy in the DR would cost 3X the Metro.
Nuclear energy in the DR would involve building a reactor in an active quake zone.
Nuclear energy, as suggested by "D" is probably a red herring to distract us from something more insidious that "they" are unwilling to make public..

The ANJE/CONEP/AMCHAM/ZF cry for enforcement of the Electricity law is falling on deaf ears. Ears that are so stuffed with "papeletas" that they can't hear anything!! Why?

Because the Electricity Distributors need the consumers of up to 1.39 MW--who are the paying consumers--in order to have a 'reliable' cash flow.
If they (the superintendent of electricity) enforce the law, customers who use just 200,000 k/hr (0.2MW) will be eligible for the preferential non-regulated status, that this will permit them to purchase generators that will use tax free or duty free diesel and thereby reduce their energy costs...
And the EDEs go belly up!!

"And the wheels go round....."

HB
 

Don Juan

Living Brain Donor
Dec 5, 2003
856
0
0
It can be done.

Keith. I could not agree with you and most other posters on the dreadful environmental degradation and resource mismanagement evidenced everywhere in DR. No question our nation has had its share of blunders, oversights and idiotic mental lapses stemming from our notorious governments. Everyone says pretty much the same about how the "Dominican syndrome", that is; how laid back, irresponsible, careless, negligent, etc. we are thus creating and perpetuating a cycle of self-defeat.. All true, I'm sorry to say. All true.
Still....Is nuclear such an uncontrolled technology that we can't safely-with the help of some other nation- produce the necessary wattage so urgently needed for building a new prosperous country full smart and dedicated people?
In spite of our shortcomings, do we abandon this option based on the assumed belief that we'll totally fail because we're total morons? That we can not or will not understand the awesome responsibility of what it takes to run a nuclear facility?
Do we, Dominicans, lack the necessary ability to learn how to do something RIGHT for a change?
We're all fully aware of the pros and cons of any technology. Every other option out there will either contribute to global warming (coal or gas) or simply won't be efficient enough or cost effective to fulfill our needs (solar, wind, tidal, etc.).
The more I think of nuclear, the more sense it makes for today's DR, it's ugly side notwithstanding.
Sorry Keith, but that's how I see it.
 

Keith R

"Believe it!"
Jan 1, 2002
2,984
36
48
www.temasactuales.com
Keith. I could not agree with you and most other posters on the dreadful environmental degradation and resource mismanagement evidenced everywhere in DR. No question our nation has had its share of blunders, oversights and idiotic mental lapses stemming from our notorious governments. Everyone says pretty much the same about how the "Dominican syndrome", that is; how laid back, irresponsible, careless, negligent, etc. we are thus creating and perpetuating a cycle of self-defeat..
I did not say that, and if you re-read not only my post in this thread, but my other posts in my DR1 posting history, I don't think you'll see me espousing that view.

Yes, I do talk about the decades-long record of giovernment-backed projects big and small, but that's because it's the track record, not some biased construct I have of all Dominicans and Dominican society.

And I am afraid we cannot just wave a magic wand and make this record change directions 180 degrees overnight. Wish we could, but not at all likely except with long, steady work at it...

All true, I'm sorry to say. All true.

Still....Is nuclear such an uncontrolled technology that we can't safely-with the help of some other nation- produce the necessary wattage so urgently needed for building a new prosperous country full smart and dedicated people?

Did I ever say that it was uncontrolled or uncontrollable?

Need I remind you that the two biggest nuclear mishaps in human history -- Three Mile Island and Chernobyl -- happened in the two nations with the most experience in managing nuclear power, the US and USSR? Getting the help of Americans or Canadians or Germans or Norwegians to manage it is no guarantee of safety. And at what price would such help come? No one is going to offer to do it for free or cheaply. Are you factoring that into your projections of the cost of eventual power generated from a nuclear plant?

And by the way, the news reports and the government are not speaking of getting German or American or Swedish technology and help -- they're talking with Argentina.

Ok, let's then set aside for a moment talking as if the so-called "Northern" nuclear powers would be the suppliers of a turn-key nuclear power generation project for the DR. Take a look at the Latins instead. It's hard for me to find good stats on Argentine nuclear safety and environment performance, so you and I can only guess... But have you taken a look at the woes at the Angra facility in rival Brazil lately? And that involves newer generation German tech than does the Argentine system....

In spite of our shortcomings, do we abandon this option based on the assumed belief that we'll totally fail because we're total morons?

At what point, in this thread or in the past, did I ever say or imply that Dominicans are total morons? I didn't and I won't. That's a straw man, Juan. Puh-leeze.

That's also not the basis of my stated concerns about this option. Re-read what I said above and on the prior nuclear threads.

That we can not or will not understand the awesome responsibility of what it takes to run a nuclear facility?
Do we, Dominicans, lack the necessary ability to learn how to do something RIGHT for a change?

If I thought of Dominicans that way, I would never have started the Green Team. Again, not at all what I was saying, and I think you know that.

We're all fully aware of the pros and cons of any technology. Every other option out there will either contribute to global warming (coal or gas) or simply won't be efficient enough or cost effective to fulfill our needs (solar, wind, tidal, etc.).

Yes, nuclear does help on the global climate change front (I prefer "climate change" rather than the more emotive "global warming," as I am not 100% sure how much warming we will see, but I am convinced that we will have major climate shifts, and may be seeing the initial phases of it now). But the DR's carbon footprint is not so globally significant as to make that a tipping point agrument for me. And you ignore the hughly significant nuclear waste issue, which even the US has yet to resolve but however will be around as a potential health and safety threat for thousands of years. Is that a legacy you want to wish on the country you love?

You may get someone to take the wastes, but who, and at what price? Again, not cheaply, and that will affect the pricing of the electricity generated.

And I'm not going to talk about possible low-level leaks, the cost of cooling water (and its impact on dwindling DR freshwater supplies) and other possible environmental ramifications. For the sake of discussion, for now we can pretend like best management can prevent any of those from being a problem and from being a significant cost factor, even though if you carefully check on the records of facilities in the US and Europe, you may conclude it's not wise to exclude such considerations...

You talk about nuclear fullfilling the DR's power needs. Will it, really? Without first taking care of the many transmission, distribution and payment problems others have raised here? I doubt that. A long list of experts have said that the DR already has the power generation capacity it needs -- it's just a question of paying for it and keeping it running properly and cutting the technical transimission losses. All of them long-term issues, decades long...

And what happens the first time the plant needs to close down for maintenance, or to resolve a safety or emissions problem?

Likewise, will the cost, at the end of the day, actually be lower? How sure are you of that? Careful! When it's being promoted, nuclear power is always presented as very cheap. But once installed and operational, and all cost factors fully accounted for, it never looks close to the original cost/price projections.

And would the DR merely be exchanging one kind of energy vulnerability (imported oil) for another, one more tightly controlled and often even more politicized (imported processed uranium)?

What would be the loan burden on the DR of such a project? For the money spent, you probably could increase consumer/user/generator efficiency, improve collection systems, set up alternative energy systems and maybe even -- dare I say it? -- find the waste-to-energy system that actually makes sense economically and environmentally for the DR, and still have funds left over. Or perhaps even better, take the whole pot and actually invest in health and education for once so we can have that future for the DR both you and I dream of and work toward....

The more I think of nuclear, the more sense it makes for today's DR, it's ugly side notwithstanding.
Sorry Keith, but that's how I see it.

No prob. We're all entitled to our opinions, and hopes and dreams and to voice them. I think I understand and certainly respect you Juan and your point-of-view. I just can't agree. But that doesn't mean we can't remain friends (BTW, when are we getting together again for a beer? ;) ).

I still think nuclear is not a compelling option for the DR, whether we're talking economics, environmental protection, energy generation profile or health and safety.

You've ignored or avoided or missed all the other points raised in this thread. For example, where in the world would you locate such a facility that it would have the water supplies it needs, be off the DR's fault lines and away from major hurricane alleys, be kept well secured, be on good road trunk lines and yet be far enough removed from tourism poles and population centers as to minimize safety issues and enable proper evacuation should the need arise?

Now Juan, I don't raise this issue because I think Dominicans are stupid or sloppy etc etc. I raise them out of necessary prudence. These are the very questions that US nuclear regulatory officials require power companies to contemplate and answer and plan for adequately before they are allowed to build a facility near you or me. Would you advocate throwing caution to the wind in installing a nuclear facility in your home country? Do Dominicans deserve less caution?

What about the terrorism issue, a real concern in this day and age. No, I'm not talking about terrorists blowing up the plant or holding it hostage. I'm talking diversion of fuel to be used to make a bomb, conventional nuclear or "dirty," take your pick. Can you say with full convidence that diversion is a non-issue in the Dominican context? I can't. I have seen too much of it in other areas in the DR in the 20 years I have known it to ignore this issue.

Just for the record, no matter what people here on DR1 may think to the contrary, I am not a knee-jerk opponent of nuclear power. I have lived within 50 miles of several plants in the US, I acknowledge its possible contribution to fighting global climate change, and if the waste problem can be properly resolved and health, safety and environment management kept in line with best practice, then I can live with it.

But I don't see that in the cards for the DR for quite a bit yet, and I don't think the DR can afford to wait for that day. The DR's policymakers need to focus more on the nearer-term, less expensive and more practical options and thorny energy management issues they have so far been dodging.

It's going to take a large dose of political will and leadership, not the sexy high-tech "fixes" that in reality are not fixes at all.

Respectfully,
Keith