Why no outrage?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tuan

New member
Aug 28, 2004
204
2
0
At a meeting with the President, DR Finance Minister Bengoa is quoted as complaining that "Dominican entrepreneurs are more politicized than politicians themselves, in view that they constantly opinionate on all national topics" (cit: http://dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=18094).

The press seems to have picked this up as a dissonant chord, but someone should have thumped on it immediately, such as his boss, the President, the keeper of Duarte's flame.

In England or Australia (and less and less in the U.S.) such a statement would surely cause outrage in press and parliament, and the minister would have his hat handed to him forthwith. Why not here?

I hold Bengoa innocent. He simply gave true expression to the universal Latin understanding of democracy. He has nicely delineated the yawning cultural divide between West and East, a deadly canyon often ignored on both sides.

Bengoa's precept: "Policticians are chosen by the public to set policy for them". This is how tribal chiefs, warlords and emirs of the caliphates operate, and it works. But that's not saying much because the guillotine also works, and well at that.

The West's "Age of Enlightenment" (Locke, Montaigne, Jefferson ...) changed that proposition and vivified Plato's dream in multitudinous constitutions since 1783.

The West's precept: "Politicians are chosen by the public to execute the public's policy desires".

Will the entrepeneur's group respond? Does the Dominican citizenry care on which side of the canyon they stand?
 

Chirimoya

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2002
17,850
982
113
The use of 'opinionate' as a verb is fairly outrageous, IMO.

As for the rest, it's the usual reaction to anyone, from any sector, who dares to criticise. Remember Hippo and the derision he used to pour on the "azarozos" and "locas viejas"?
 

cobraboy

Pro-Bono Demolition Hobbyist
Jul 24, 2004
40,964
936
113
What's the problem with entrepreneurs being opinionated and politicized?
 

Rick Snyder

Silver
Nov 19, 2003
2,321
2
0
Taun I feel that I must interject on your summation of the article in question that you linked to.

Regardless as to what the headlines stated I fail to see whereas Se?or Bengoa was complaining about the Dominican entrepreneurs politicizing on national topics. Rather, the article said that he affirmed that this is the case which gives the interpretation that he was asked about it and affirmed that it is a fact. Your interpolation that this politicization is opinionated is contrary to everything that I have read. Time and time again those entrepreneurs state the truth as it pertains to everything here in the DR which takes it out of the realm of opinionating. A classic example of that is here;

http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=18018
http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=18074
http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=17944
http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=17908
http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=17847
http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=17816

I looked at the short article that you linked;

http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=18094

and failed to see the statement that you placed in your first quotation marks. Was this another interpolation on your part?

I would also ask that you show a reference point for your statement and quote, ?Bengoa's precept: "Policticians are chosen by the public to set policy for them", as I am very interested in reading about his concepts of the political situation here in the DR as we all are aware of the insouciance of the politicians here.

Rick
 

Tuan

New member
Aug 28, 2004
204
2
0
The public's right to 'opinionate'

[/I]No opinionating (sic) here, Rick. DomToday summarized the finance minister's statement as opinionating. You are right, I misused the word "quote". It was their summarization, but not off the mark, of what Bengoa said. Here's Bengoa's actual statement as quoted in the article:

?Entrepreneurs constantly speak of human rights, on the Electoral Board justices, on the lack of credibility of the parties, on whether there should or should not be a second round of elections; they speak more of the Constitution than leaders of political organizations,?

My quote marks around "Politicians are chosen by the public to set policy for them" are to distinguish that phrase as characterizing the precept that logic leads one to see lying behind his statement. Sorry, didn't mean to opine or quote myself. That precept is prevalent today, especially in L.A.

My opinion is that such a precept is harmful to democracy. Reconstructing it to represent Post-Enlightenment Western thought, I came up with "Politicians are chosen by the public to execute the public's policy desires", to show how very wrong the first, what I'll call the Caliphate model, was, and how tolerating its use in high office dismantles what the West has achieved with its Republics (as in Dominican Republic).

Or to put it tritely, which I think causes the point to me missed: Public officials are elected to be public servants, not public commanders. They participate in a REPUBLIC (re-public), the dream of both Plato and Duarte.

Sorry -- now that I've disccovered the BOLD and the ITALIC buttons. I'll be more careful with quotes or the word "quote" in the future.
 

Texas Bill

Silver
Feb 11, 2003
2,174
26
0
97
www.texasbill.com
Tuan:

Are you saying, then, that once a politician is elected to office, he assumes he has "Carte Blanche" in the implementation of his thoughts about what the Public really wants and needs?
I ask because that is how I interpret Sr. Bengoa's remarks. Am I wrong?
We all know that in a "Western" Democracy, the elected officials are mandated to respond to the public demand ( however discordant that may be or seem ).
It seems to me that all public officials are more interested in perpetuating their tenure in office and that of their particular political party rather than seing to the real needs of the constituencies thaey are supposed to represent.
These politicians create "issues" out of thin air and beat the drum for/against those imagined issues in order to distract the public in general.
Jus take a look at the way the Senate and the House have twisted the illegal immigration issues in the US, as an example. Here in the DR it is the failure of the parties to correct the imbalance in governent spending and coruption in government that is the centerpiece of most of the debate going on today between the various parties. Smoke Screening the true issues and laying blame on others is part and parcel to the politicians vocabulary and action. otherwise they seem to do nothing but draw their paychecks (some even to the tune of RD$600,000.00 per month, if a well know abogado is to be believed).

Texas Bill
 

Hillbilly

Moderator
Jan 1, 2002
18,948
514
113
I saw the headlines. My favorite lady, Elena Viyella de Paliza, the president of CONEP (Private Enterprise Council) and a very clear thinking and straight speaking person. She was the object of many barbs by Hippo Mejía and in a speech before the American Chamber of Commerce in Santo Domingo (everyone who is anyone) she lambasted the government's spending policies and many other things that hit a lot of nerves.

So? The PLD is exactly like th OP says. They consider themselves above the madding crowd and therefore do what they d@mned well please (Metro? anyone??).....

HB
 

Texas Bill

Silver
Feb 11, 2003
2,174
26
0
97
www.texasbill.com
Hillbilly;

How would you summerize the PRD and the PRSC? Aren't they all the same?
It seems to me that it matters notwhich party is in power, nor who the President is, they all do the same thing over and over again witout changing anything but the name of the party in power.
When Leonel was first in office, I had some hope of there being a reasonably honest government.
Guess i should have know better, Eh What??


Texas Bill
 

Hillbilly

Moderator
Jan 1, 2002
18,948
514
113
Right on Texas Bill. thing is Balaguer was much wiser. He once said that the parrot was the only bird that the ants never bit. And that was because they always let a lot of crumbs fall to the ground as they ate.

As a political leader, he let a lot of "crumbs" fall to the ground....get my drift??

that is why the people call the PLD the "Come solos" (eat alones)

And going back to the OP's outrage....nobody noticed that the municipal government of Santo Domingo has approved a request for a RD$36 million peso loan from the Reserve Bank? To pay for...get this...

Christmas bonuses and cars for the councilmembers!!!!

OMG!!!

HB
 

Tuan

New member
Aug 28, 2004
204
2
0
Billy, I only meant to show Bengoa's comment, its evident underlying precept and the lack of outrage from his superior, his peers and the public. That seems to prove that the DR (not Villeya) lies squarely in the pre-Englightenment age. I posit that Latin American democracy suffers from precepts ground into the culture during Spain's 800 years in the Caliphate and later designed into the language by the 200 year project in Seville to unite the Iberian peoples after the expulsion of the Moors and (unfortunately) the Jews. That's history. But the facts of history create the facts of today that L.A. policticians usually view qualified public groups as upstart popinjays when they dare to put their oar in policy water.

Why is that important now? It means that the western hemisphere is split in half in the growing titanic conflict between East and West:

EAST: a primeval dream of a worldwide Caliphate under Koranic civil code
VS.
WEST: encarnation of Plato's dream -- now dissolute, perhaps moribund

Wild imagining? Hezbollah is operating in Venezuela as Hugo's phalanx on the Columbian border. Is FALPO next?
 

Texas Bill

Silver
Feb 11, 2003
2,174
26
0
97
www.texasbill.com
Tuan:

I agree.
We seem to be on the same wavelength regarding the cultural aspects of the Eastern Philosophy of politics and economics.
Your reference to the "Caliphate" system is germane to that summation.
The 800 years of Spanish occupation by Islam has left a lasting mark on the minds of the people of Spanish extraction.
It was during the years immediately following the expulsion of the Moors from Spain that CC began the sequence of events that led to the conquest of Central and South America and subsequently the transfer of Spanish Cultural aspects to the natives of this territory. The inculation of Spanish (Islamic) philosophies have been infused into the psyches of present inhabitants to the degree that anything different is rejected out of hand. It's almost as if such has become genetic transfer from one generation to another.
The ideology of "follow the leader" is so deeply ingrained, I doubt it will ever be completely eliminated in LA regardless of the attempts of those who embrace another approach to political, cultural and economic progress.
The only effective weapon that can be used is that of an educated and informed people who understand the resulting impact upon their lives of the political fallacies being broadcast currently.
The DR politicians have developed a "taker" nation in that the mechanisms used are those of subsidies on the basic wants of the public they are supposed to serve. In order to assure their continued tenure, politicians have distorted the ability of the nation to progress beyond its "feudalistic" position.
While the stated concepts of governing may differ between parties, the rank and file of those parties are clones to each other; therefore there is no real differences to their ultimate actions and the consequences thereof.
Does that make sense, or further confuse the issue??

Perhaps Kipling was right when he wrote, "East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet".

Texas Bill
 
Last edited:

Hillbilly

Moderator
Jan 1, 2002
18,948
514
113
And a wise man told one of my good friends that the problem with eastern (Islamic) thinking is that Islam never developed a system for argueing! What in the Middle Ages(Europe) formed part of the basic education, rhetoric!

Thus the idea that "we are right" rules....in the heads of the political parties.

There is a certain innocense (sp?) in these politicians...

Which is why they are so surprised when the sh!t hits the fan!!

HB
 

Tuan

New member
Aug 28, 2004
204
2
0
You make perfect sense. The issue is not confused.

Bengoa's comment is important because, as an official of the 2nd rank, it demonstrates how ingrained pre-Enlightenment precepts and the Koranic code really is in LA overall. That's because DR ought to be the most enlightened given its dependent size and its geography, it's status as "51st State" (but that didn't help Cuba, did it?). It should have had the old ways somewhat rubbed off by proportionately close ties to the US. Didn't happen.

So don't count on DR staying in the West's camp in the conflict, starting with
Hugo's takeover -- er, Bolivarization -- of LA.
 

Texas Bill

Silver
Feb 11, 2003
2,174
26
0
97
www.texasbill.com
Tuan, that is exactly what concerns me at this point in the history of the Latin "Republics".
The question of Western Democracy being the driving force in the scheme of politics is becoming more and more enigmatic as time progresses.
Western thinking just doesn't meld with Eastern thinking andthat is exactly wherein the problem lies.
We Westerners have a specific line of logic which is diametrically (perhaps diabolically) opposed to the Eastern terms that are bandied about.
our idea of democtratic rule depends on the checks and balances imposed by a constitution which seperates the individual powers of the Executive, the Legislative and the Judicial. in Western thought, these impositions are necessary to the function of government and sets the stage for theconstant "looking over the shoulder" of one element to the orhers.
I do not see that sort of purposeful limiting of the powers so identified in any of the Latin Countries. I think, perhaps, for that reason alone, latin govrnments are subjegated to the constant power struggles that history has revealed. Each element wishes to occupy the position of power over the other, resulting in that evident struggle.
The Bolivarian Constitution is a beautiful document. It isa shame that the elements portrayed in it are not followed by the government(s) supporting it. As such, it becomes an empty document relagated to the4 archives of the Judicial who place different interpretations on thewords it contains.
Like the US Constitution, it has been adulterated over time to result in many different interpretations which seem to fit the needs of society at the time, but have only resulted in further confusion to that very society. But, thewrein we deal with the semantics of the timeframe in which the original words were formulated. The question arises, do those words mean the samething today as they did in the minds of the authors when they were set down on the pages?
Many Latins (and Westerners) in government positions have the opinion that they are exempt from the laws by virtue of their positions. How does one combat such idiotic thinking?
It has been my observation that when "the finger of misconduct/malfeasance/mismanagement" is directed to a particular individual or position, their response is one of emphatic denial and blame focusing in another direction, or changing the subject altogether. We all know that politicians "speak with a forked tongue", so what do we do about it? Nothing until "election time" and then we merely exchange one snake for another just as venomous, greedy and downright dishonest.
Before I turn this into a book, I'll defer to others.

Texas Bill
 

A.Hidalgo

Silver
Apr 28, 2006
3,268
98
0
Tuan

As you have brought up the subject of Spain and this Caliphate thing, i'm curious about your opinion on the state of democracy in Spain today.
 

Rick Snyder

Silver
Nov 19, 2003
2,321
2
0
The subject matter of the OP is why there is no outrage here in the DR to the things that were said in the link that was provided therein. With that in mind let's keep this discussion DR related.

If your wish is to understand a persons personal feelings towards something not DR related then take it to the PM level as they have no position here in the DR Government forum.

Rick
 

A.Hidalgo

Silver
Apr 28, 2006
3,268
98
0
The subject matter of the OP is why there is no outrage here in the DR to the things that were said in the link that was provided therein. With that in mind let's keep this discussion DR related.

If your wish is to understand a persons personal feelings towards something not DR related then take it to the PM level as they have no position here in the DR Government forum.

Rick

Rick

On more than one post Tuan brought up the subject of the Caliphate and Spain as they have according to him influenced LA ideology. Others added their opinion on this also. I don't understand how I am deviating from subject.
 

Rick Snyder

Silver
Nov 19, 2003
2,321
2
0
Hidalgo I'm sorry if you thought that my post was directed towards you personally. It was in fact directed at everyone and especially at Tuan who is the OP.

The rules are not many on this board but the two that always seem to be the ones that are broken are that all material must be DR related and don't waver from the OP.

Rick
 

A.Hidalgo

Silver
Apr 28, 2006
3,268
98
0
Rick

Thanks for clarification but the thread had already strayed.

Anyway I think that the statement made by Minister Bengoa is the typical fare of the one's in power in the DR and elsewhere. Of course in different styles particular to each country. If there is critisism of the party in power you are going to get this kind of reaction especially if the democratic process has been stymied in its development. Of course corruption will keep democracy from developing further, and unfortunately we have plenty of that in the DR.

As far as the caliphate or islamic connection to the topic at hand, I think some are streching the underlining causes of his statements.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.