La Republica Dominico-Haitiana?

Should the Dominican and Haitian states be replaced with a island wide state?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 5.9%
  • No

    Votes: 47 92.2%
  • Not Sure

    Votes: 1 2.0%

  • Total voters
    51

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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This is the question that most Dominicans and Haitians fear the most and yet, it's one question that I am sure is asked by every foreigner who has become interested, if not obsessed with Hispaniola.

Despite the fact that the DR and Haiti are gigantic nations by Caribbean standards, there are people who dream of seeing the island as one political entity.

This question is based solely on the political aspect of statehood (as independent state or country, not as a member of the U.S.). This question is not about nationhood so please caste your vote according to the political aspect this question is based upon.

First quick definition:

State: A territorially bounded institution which has full control of the use of force and exploitation of resources within it's boundaries.

Nation: A commonality and form of indentification and culture among a group of people.

Note: Nations do exist without states (ie. Kurds), but in order for states to exist they need nation(s) (ie. United States and Americans). In the first case a nation can exist but it has no land of its own or is divided by various states attempting to control them and the resources they posses while on the latter a state exist in conjunction with a nation and both are mutually using each other to exploit and allocate resources within the territory the state control.

Also, a newly formed state in a territory occupied by variuos nations can attempt to create a new nation based on the blending and assimilation of each nation's characteristics into one unified nation.

Additionally, once a nation is created, it becomes increasingly difficult to diffuse or unite two or more nations if members of each nation strongly identifies and has strong feelings towards their identity and people.

With that unbiased information (I could be more specific, but that would affect the voting pattern), answer the following question:

SHOULD THE DOMINICAN AND HAITIAN STATES BE REPLACED WITH AN ISLAND WIDE STATE?

A) YES

B) NO

C) NOT SURE
 

Criss Colon

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Jan 2, 2002
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Since There Is Basically No Difference Between The Two, Why Not!!!

Like Canada with it's English speaking part and the "Quebecwha" side!!;)
After all,there used to be only one Country here!
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Chirimoya

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2002
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The notion of unification only exists in a few demented and paranoid minds.

Nals - insulting our intelligence since 2003
 

CarpeDReam

New member
Feb 17, 2006
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Are you insane?

Like Canada with it's English speaking part and the "Quebecwha" side!!;)
After all,there used to be only one Country here!
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There are a whoooole lot of differences between both countries: language, culture, religion, funeral rituals, social customs...just to name a few. As poorer as Haiti may be, I'm sure most would not want to be part of the DR; just like most dominicans would not want to be a part of the US.

Why isn't Canada part of the US? why isn't South America just one big ole' country, after all most of these countries have even more in common than Haiti and the DR...why not Africa, Middle East or all of Europe? the answer is patriotism and history...this is stronger than present socio-economic status.
 

KateP

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May 28, 2004
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Like Canada with it's English speaking part and the "Quebecwha" side!!;)
After all,there used to be only one Country here!
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Please do not compare Canada and Quebec with the DR and Haiti. These are 2 totally different worlds, as you very well know. And as a Quebecoise, I would appreciate you not make fun of us.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,368
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There are a whoooole lot of differences between both countries: language, culture, religion, funeral rituals, social customs...just to name a few. As poorer as Haiti may be, I'm sure most would not want to be part of the DR; just like most dominicans would not want to be a part of the US.

Why isn't Canada part of the US? why isn't South America just one big ole' country, after all most of these countries have even more in common than Haiti and the DR...why not Africa, Middle East or all of Europe? the answer is patriotism and history...this is stronger than present socio-economic status.
Even at the Socio-economic status level, the two countries are different as well.

For example, in Haiti agriculture is the primary source of employment accounting for 66% of the work force, whereas in the DR 83% of the work force is employed in services and industry (58.7% in services and 24.3% in industry). Also, DR's formal economy valued a Purchasing Power Parity $63.73 billion is almost 5 times larger than Haiti's ($14.15 billion) while per capita income of Haiti is only a quarter of the DR's. To this one needs to take into account that per capita GDP are skewed upwards due to unequal distribution of wealth between the riches and lowest segment of a population.

-NALs

Source:

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/dr.html#Econ

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ha.html#Econ
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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The notion of unification only exists in a few demented and paranoid minds.

Nals - insulting our intelligence since 2003
That's precisely what the British believed prior to July 4, 1776.

The only difference was that the notion was not of unification, but rather separation from the part of New Englanders (ie. Yankees) wanting to become an independent state.

Interesting how those "few demented and paranoid minds" are considered heros of a nation that dominates the entire world.

I don't and will never support unification of Haiti or DR into a new state. I would not support the destruction of the Dominican state and simultaneous expansion of the Haitian state. I would only support the protection of the Dominican state as is, or (to a lesser degree and only if it must be done) an expansion of the Dominican state.

However, that does not means that there are no people who wish to see the island as one entity that is neither Dominican or Haitian in nature and we must be aware of their existance.

History is littered with the "few demented and paranoid minds" who had a notion of either unification or separation and actually did such!

Otherwise, why is the British Empire or perhaps the Spanish Empire in extinction today?

The habit of MANY coveniently looking the other way when they should not has plenty to do with the answer of such question!

-NALs
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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jpblan said:
...the Haitian rich and upper class has been leaving the country since 1959. Some of those who left set up business in the Dominican Republic and due to their already light skin some Dominicans have taken them and their descendents for Dominicans. The proof is in how many dominicans have French sounding last names?
While what you say has been true, not so on your last sentence which I have put in bold.

Dominicans of french ancestry stem back to the time when the entire island became a colony of France (at one point Spain ceded the eastern part of the island to France in exchange for Spanish land on the european mainland that the French controlled). From that point forward the french influence has been pronounce in the Spanish speaking side which was again regained as a Spanish colony until it gain it's independence and declared itself Haiti Espa?ol. Soon afterwards the Haitians marched across the border and took control of Santo Domingo and ruled the entire island for 22 years. The Haitian invasion was mostly a military incursion, with hardly any sizable numbers of Haitian citizens moving to the Spanish side. What did occur was the establishment of blacks from the United States and other parts of the Caribbean, especially in Samana and Puerto Plata. This was done on the part of the Haitians in order to darken the population of Santo Domingo given that most Dominicans were decendants of Spaniards from the Canary Islands. Most of the African-Americans who settled in Puerto Plata fled to other places like Turks and Caicos due to abuses imposed by the Haitian army at the time which the foreigners and Dominicans did not appreciated. There also were severe abuses to the Catholic Church with the confiscation of church property, the conversion of Catholic Churches to non-religious venues and in some cases priests received abuses from the Haitian army as was the case with the archbishop of Santiago who was "beaten at the portal of his own church and forced by a group of Haitian army men to travel by foot from Santiago all the way to Port-au-Prince." After that occupation, the Spanish side regained its independence, but this time as the Dominican Republic.

After the Dominican Republic gained its independence (which was the result of an underground movement headed by Juan Pablo Duarte after he return to Santo Domingo after studying in France. He was shock with the backwardness the country had been subjected to and resented the second class status Dominicans were placed by the Haitian army and newly forming elite), the country received modest amounts of immigrants from Puerto Rico (who were mostly white and light skinned). At the end of the 1800s, Cuban capitalists began developing the eastern part of the country for sugarcane production and imported the much cheaper labor from the British West Indies who were blacks today known as Cocolos. The immigrants from the BWI went into a strike during the early years of the Trujillo regime (because they demanded better wages and living conditions) and Trujillo responded by signing an agreement with the Haitian government to import Kongos of Haitians to work the sugar cane fields of the DR. From that point forward the presence of Haitians in the country has increased steadily. The 20th century was a time of mostly non-white migration to the DR, since the source of whites being Puerto Rico began to dry up as the US imposed migration barriers and the prospect of moving to the US (plus increasing wealth in Puerto Rico) made Santo Domingo a less favorable option for Boricuas to migrate.

Cubans also were prominent immigrants into the DR, the first major wave starting in the 1890s during Cuba's war of independence. At that time, white Cuban families which today their Dominican descendants form part of the ruling elites (ie. Brugal) congregated in the major population centers of the DR and began to develop the sugar and tobacco industry. The second wave of Cubans to the DR originated in the 1960s when Cuba felt under the spell of Fidel Castro. Also, during the Trujillo regime, several French, Italian, and other european families which today have upper class status immigrated to the country. Many Spaniards fleeing the Spanish Civil War also made Santo Domingo their home.

By the 1980s, the largest minority and immigrant group became the Haitians as the flow of illegal migration increased and this has remained so up to this very day.

Keep in mind that in 1900 the DR had around 600,000 individuals as total population of the country. Most lived in the Cibao, Santo Domingo, and Puerto Plata. Towns like San Pedro and La Romana were little more than poor fishing villages until the Dance of Millions in the 1920s when sugar prices boomed and overnight turned these two cities into some of the wealthiest cities in the world until the great depression hit and the cities have been in the doldrums ever since with minor bubbles of economic prosperity. Today, San Pedro is mostly inhabited by Cocolos since whites and lighter skin individuals moved to other parts of the country and world after there was no money to be made.

By 1950 the DR barely had 3 million individuals. By 1970s the DR had around 5 million. By 2000 the DR had 7 million and now in 2006 the DR has an estimated 9 million individuals.

Racial demographics have also change the most dramatically in the last 100 years since the time of Columbus. First hand account of foreign visitors and dignitaries visiting Santo Domingo and Puerto Plata around 1900 mention that Dominicans were mostly white which blacks being very few. As you read more recent reports (1930s, 40s, and 50s) the reports suggest that Dominicans are a mulatto population (which shows the changing demographics of the country as non-white migration increases while white immigration decreases during this period). Of course, very recent descriptions of the country mention the mulatto as being majority, while some are pushing the black majority idea. In 1975 28% of Dominicans were considered white, by 2000 it went down to 16%. The number of blacks also fell and only the mulatto category increased to 75%.

jpblan said:
There is however a hatred of Haitians by Dominicans stemming from the Haitian control of the island from 1822 to 1844.
The mistrust is also based on subsequent invasion attempts after the country gained it's independence from Haiti as well as the massacre the troops of Boyer commited in Moca and Santiago when he ordered the entire population of those two cities killed as the Haitian troops retreated towards Haitian territory as a way of showing his anger at not being able to take Santo Domingo due to a confusion created in him by the sight of French ships bypassing Santo Domingo, which he assumed were French troops heading to Port-au-Prince to capture the city. Having left the Haitian side without a guard (all were in Santo Domingo fighting the Dominican right to be independent), Boyer had no option but to retreat back to Port-au-Prince and in the mean time he commited that massacre. Of course, the French ships (for reasons unknown to historians) only went as far west as the Bay of Ocoa and from their they made a turn and returned to Santo Domingo.

Invasion attempts by Haitian leader Faustine and Henry Christophe also caused much trauma to the stability of the DR and to Dominican-Haitian relations.

As time has passed, Haitian military incursions into the Dominican Republic began to subside, primarily because Haiti was becoming poorer and could not afford to invade the DR.

The massacres and multiple invasion attempts is what has kept the mistrust alive. In the 1930s, Trujillo's massacre of Haitians on the Dominican side increased the level of mistrust from Haitians towards Dominicans and from that day forward relations between the two countries were very unstable until Leonel Fernandez came to office in 1996 and made an effort to reconcile with the Haitian government and initiate the current more stable relations both governments enjoy.

jpblan said:
Furthermore, I have come to understand the Haitians wanted a total cleansing of the entire island of Europeans. Whereas, the Dominican resentment was not as entrenched. Case in point, when the Dominicans got there independence from the Haitians, rather than declaring independence they called Spain back to rule Santo Domingo.
The Haitian leaders wanted to total elimination of europeans from the island in order to ensure their survival as the first black republic in the world.

They were always suspicious of the whiter and europe oriented Dominicans to their east. They believed that by either destroying the DR or darkening the Dominican population they would be able to abate a european attempt at invading Haiti with support from the Dominicans.

However, when Dominicans got their independence after the invasion, Dominicans did not called Spain to rule Santo Domingo.

The one who asked Spain to recolonize Santo Domingo was Pedro Santana who wanted the bullying from the part of the Haitians on Dominicans to end. The constant invasions and constant threat was too much of a burden to carry. He believed that the DR would only survive if it was part of a stronger nation. The DR petition to be allowed into Gran Colombia but failed. It asked the United States to take over the DR, but US rejected. In the end, it asked the Spaniards to recolonize and the Spaniards agreed.

Dominicans in general did not wanted to lose their independence and for this reason from the start the Spaniards had a tough time imposing their rule over the Dominicans. This ended with the eruption of the War of Restoration when the Spaniards were driven out of the country and the country was secured its independence once again.

Interestingly enough, the Haitians actually helped the Dominicans fight the Spaniards out of the island, in part because the Haitians wanted the Dominicans to remain weak in order for them to feel secure that they were not going to be invaded and destroyed by their neighbor.

jpblan said:
Additionally, for the most part they are one country because the borders of both countries are in actuality open. WITH very few exceptions you can literally walk into both countries and not e stoped or detected.
There is no such thing as "one country". They are two states and two nations.

The fact that the border is porous is typical of third world nations which tend to not have control over their borders. This is true on Hispaniola as it is through out South and Central America, Africa, Asia, you name it!

-NALs
 

Criss Colon

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Jan 2, 2002
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I'm Sure Most of The "REAL" Canada Would like to be ride of those

"Hard Working" Quebecoise"!

Sorry I Meant..... "HARDLY WORKING"!!!!!

"Ladies and Gentlemen,...."What is the difference between a "French Canadian", and a Canoe???????

....a "French Canadian" NEVER TIPS!!!!!!!!!!!!


Article in today's "Diario Libre" about Unification of the DR and Their Haitian Brothers and Sisters!

PS,... Nice to see that Nals can still do an online search about the DR!

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