Haitians in DR

KeithF

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Jul 9, 2006
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Oh dear, first I just read DR1 forums, dipping in and out occasionally. Then I registered but still only 'lurked'. That was fine, I could cope. But then I posted and was steadily sucked in... Now, I'm actually starting a thread... there's no hope left, I'm a DR1 addict...

Anyway, this is a serious point. I posted this on 'another forum' but it got moved and no one responded. Fair enough, it's perhaps a bit 'tough' a subject matter for a 'travel' forum. I'll post the original message as a quote and then elaborate...

"Currently, there is an article on Newsnight on BBC TV about UN soldiers sexually abusing young people in Haiti [last Thursday]. 14 year old girls being given food in exchange for oral sex and children as young as 11 being involved in sexual acts for anything from sweets to money. The undercover filming showed three white men picking up prostitutes and taking them away in marked UN vehicles. Apparently 'rape or abuse' results in the soldiers being "punished", but the punishment is that the soldiers are simply repatriated to their own country. One young girl of 14 years old made allegations of being raped, the soldier was sent home and the case 'closed' due to insufficient evidence.

In Haiti, "50% of the population exist on less than one dollar a day"

The mess Haiti is in, it's little wonder so many Haitians are in the Dominican Republic, often working illegally.

Ten years ago there weren't many Haitians in DR but now there appear to be many, do you think they are getting a fair deal or are so desperate that anything is better than nothing?"


I suppose what I was wondering is, while clearly Haiti is a 'basket case' of a country and many people are desperate to escape the violence and poverty by getting in to the Dom Rep, why are migrant workers needed in a country that has a high level of unemployment? When I first visited DR a decade ago, it appeared to me that the only Haitians were found cutting sugar cane and that Dominicans viewed that work as 'beneath' them. Now, the vast majority of people involved in construction are Haitians. Is this the same, because Dominican men see this as being 'below' them? Are the Haitians actually skilled labourers, that the Dominican's aren't? Are people who are unemployed not willing to become migrant (although the staff in large AI's appear to be happy enough travelling great distances) or is it simply that the Haitians are undercutting the local market and working for extremely low wages that wouldn't be worth it for Dominicans? In other words, are they being exploited to the extreme?
 

Kyle

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Jun 2, 2006
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take a good look at the US with mexican workers..same situation..and there are quite a few other stories world wide like this.....it's sad but true..
 

Ricardo900

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Jul 12, 2004
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The Haitians are definitely undercutting the labor market due to their willingness to work at a lower rate that would've been paid to a local dominican. But all countries go through that with migrant workers, i.e. Mexican labor in the US. Before them it was some other nationality, and so forth and so on.
 

macocael

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Aug 3, 2004
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Ricardo, that is not exactly right, I am afraid. I have been reporting on this issue for two years now,a nd what is actually happening is that:

(1) in the campos, the peonage system has gradually been changing to accommodate the flight of Dominicans from the campos to the cities and the arrival of haitian migrant laborers to fill the vacuum. The haitians arent depriving Dominicans of these jobs due to the former's willingness to accept lower wages -- the Dominicans arent there at all anymore. In my little town, Sonador, there are still Dominican peons working the fields, but mostly they are elderly, and they are trapped in that situation. All our young people are either working construction in Santiago or the capital, or they work in the new zona franca, or they have moved to the outer barrios and work at various jobs in the cities. In Villa Trina, when a Dominican mob lynched a Haitian erroneously accused of a crime and then burned down the local Haitian shantytown, the fleeing Haitians left a labor vacuum behind that WAS NOT filled by Dominicans even though the coffee producers were desperate to bring in the harvest. They lost millions as a result.

(2) As far as construction jobs and so on, again, the Dominicans will not work the jobs that are given to the Haitians -- the haitians swing hammers all day and tear down walls and so on, or dig trenches, while the Dominicans work the more "skilled" jobs and earn better pay. The rest of the jobs that Haitians have in the cities are basically selling in the street, they are chiriperos, ambulatory vendors -- coqueros, etc.

(3) along the coasts, near the resorts, you will find shantytowns filled with Haitian migrant laborers. They work at the AIs but again they do the scut work that no Dominicans will do any longer (and who can blame them? The wages were NEVER any good). Hotel workers here are treated abominably.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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I suppose what I was wondering is, while clearly Haiti is a 'basket case' of a country and many people are desperate to escape the violence and poverty by getting in to the Dom Rep, why are migrant workers needed in a country that has a high level of unemployment? When I first visited DR a decade ago, it appeared to me that the only Haitians were found cutting sugar cane and that Dominicans viewed that work as 'beneath' them. Now, the vast majority of people involved in construction are Haitians. Is this the same, because Dominican men see this as being 'below' them? Are the Haitians actually skilled labourers, that the Dominican's aren't? Are people who are unemployed not willing to become migrant (although the staff in large AI's appear to be happy enough travelling great distances) or is it simply that the Haitians are undercutting the local market and working for extremely low wages that wouldn't be worth it for Dominicans? In other words, are they being exploited to the extreme?
Your questions seem to imply one thing (to me at least): You may not be fully aware of basic economic theory.

I think (based on your questions) you may not be fully aware of how the size of labor and the amount of demand affects wage rates and thus become a sort of chicken and egg dilemma.

Everything I will say following this sentence is under the assumption that all other variables or factors not mentioned remains constant. In fact, almost all economic theories are based on such assumption, so this should be no surprise.

The price of everything is determined by demand and supply. In terms of wages or salaries, they are determined by "the market".

What is the market? At its most purest level, its the equilibrium point between the demand and the supply which gives the price. In spatial terms, its the place where people go to exchange various goods, thus its the place where an equilibrium between a buyer (demand) and a supplier (supply) is reached so the scarce resource are distributed efficiently.

The equilibrium between labor supply and labor demand can be affected in various ways:

1. An increase/decrease of labor supply.

2. An increase/decrease in labor demand.

3. A price floor is imposed. (ie. minimum wage)

4. A price ceiling is imposed. (ie. maximum wage)

Let me explain how each affects the price of labor:

An increase in labor supply causes the wage to fall. The reason is because more people are competing for the same amount of job. The idea of being unemployed earning nothing is extremely undesirable and very real for the laborers, so rather than being unemployed, they will take whatever pay rate the labor demand will give them. This works up to a point, because an entire population of laborers may feel that a particular job is not worth doing if the pay rate drops beyond a certain point. At that point is the lowest an employer can effectively pay an employee. Anything below that will simply not attract workers and/or will attract the less qualified workers which hurts productivity and in the end, hurts the bottom line (ie. profits).

An increase in labor demand causes wages to increase. The reason is because there are more employers competing for the same number of workers. The risk of going out of business at a time when expanding a business is possible is a real risk if there is a shortage of workers. Each business is in competition with each other attempting to capture a market segment and in order to stay in business they not only need enough sales but also enough qualified workers. When the number of workers available in the workforce is not enough for all firms to fill their position, this causes firms to attract workers by giving them incentives (ie. increase wage).

The firms that are able to offer the highest wages will inevitably attract the best qualified workers, who will also be the most productive ensuring the company reaps benefits by an increase in the bottom line - assuming other firms are not capable of offering even higher wages and are stuck with inferior labor quality, etc.

A price floor is the equivalent to a minimum wage, which can be imposed by government legislation or workers uniting and make such demand (ie. form a union). How high or low the minimum wage is will have a direct effect on the unemployment level because if the minimum wage is higher than the market equilibrium between labor supply and labor demand, then firms will have to pay more for less labor in order to keep labor costs as low as possible.

A price ceiling, on the other hand, is a cap on how high wages can go. This hardly is practiced, but its not entirely unknown. The effect of this is the opposite of a price floor.

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Now that we got the mere basics out of the way (although I was extremely informal and without using graphs and such), I will now focus on the overall concern you have regarding high unemployment in DR and the demand for Haitian labor.

As I previously stated, an increase in labor supply (assuming labor demand remains constant) will cause the prevailing wage to decrease.

Such decrease is an incentive for firms to hire more workers for less.

If there is such an excess of labor supply that the cost of labor falls below the cost of modern machinery, firms in such economy will be more labor intensive rather than capital intensive.

In other words, firms will hire more people to do what one machine could do. The reason is because its cheaper to hire more people than to buy and maintain a single machine which will produce the exact same results.

In theory, Dominican sugar industry should had modernized (that is, become more capital intensive) a long time ago. The reason for this was simple, Dominicans felt that cutting cane by hand was too much work for too little money. They wanted to work and be paid wages that they can at least use for a decent lifestyle rather than being virtual slaves.

The way the Dominican government (and later Dominican sugar cane firms) reacted to this was by importing foreign labor. At first the labor was imported from the British West Indies (their decendants are known as Cocolos) and later the labor started to be recruited from Haiti, especially once the Cocolos refused to work for the same reason Dominicans refused to work before. And again, history repeated itself, rather than letting the nature of market capitalism work, employers decided to tamper with it by imported foreign labor.

All this increase in foreign labor kept wages low.

What is the problem with Haitian labor demand despite high unemployment in the DR?

The problem is this, most Haitians are in the DR illegally.

This means that not only are they putting downward pressure on wages in unskilled sectors of the economy due to the increase in labor supply, but their illegality causes them to not be recognized by the Dominican state (that is why they are illegal, they have not registered their existence in the DR through official linkages) and firms are able to exploit them at the prevailing market wage.

Due to their illegality, the prevailing market wage among them will be lower than it would be for a legal Haitian or for anyone else for that matter.

The more illegals enter the country, the lower the wages become. The lower they become, the less appealing such work will be for Dominicans, Cocolos, and other people who want a decent life.

Illegal Haitians take those badly paying jobs because:

1. They are illegal in the country, thus they take whatever jobs they are offered at whatever rate.

2. They come from a country where they were not working at all and were starving, so the first sight of a job, regardless how bad the pay rate is, they will take. It sure beats whatever they were doing in Haiti which is nothing.

3. Because they lack skills and/or are not legal in the country, they are not able to demand equal pay as citizens or legal immigrants. This is the case because of the threat of deportation. Also, they are not able to ask for help from government institutions because they need identification and many don't have ID's, plus they are illegal in the country and that would over shadow everything else.

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Firms hire illegal Haitian immigrants because they offer the cheapest labor dictated by a combination of market forces and legality issue regarding their presence in the country via unofficial channels.

Illegal Haitian immigrants take those jobs because its better than anything they had in Haiti, they are illegal in the country and are under constant threat of being reported to authorities and deported.

Dominicans refuse to work in similar jobs because wages are too low for them. They are legally protected by Dominican laws and this protection (in conjunction with the influx of illegal immigrants) becomes highly unfavorable for firms. Rather than paying the prevailing wage Dominicans would ask for such work, firms prefer to cut their labor cost by hiring illegal immigrants.

Given the low level of pay, Dominicans and anyone really, will begin to look at such job as below them. If wages were to reflect the real market price (assuming no illegal immigrants), most Dominicans would probably not have as bad a view towards such jobs as they do now.

Think of yourself. How do you feel of the idea of you working in a strawberry field in the Western U.S.?

Will you work in such fields at the prevailing wage?

Will you work in such fields if the prevailing wage was higher? How about if they paid $20 an hour, will you run to apply for such job? How about if it was higher?

At a given point, working at a strawberry field becomes appealing, but that depends on the pay rate. The pay rate is very low because of an excess of labor, which is exacerbated by the existence of illegal immigrants which increases such labor, plus their vulnerability of being abused by the firms gives such firm greater control of the price of such labor.

Thus, you, will never work for such firms because they pay too low and those jobs are not to your liking (although they would be if the pay was extraordinary) and the firms don't care if you want to work for them since they already got the labor they want at the price they want.

It's the same story in the DR.

The high unemployment means nothing as long as there are enough labor hands to do the menial jobs at the pay rate the firms want.

Assuming only legal labor exist in a country, the winners of an increase in labor supply are the firms and the labor, since labor will be paid its market rate, unaltered by unforseen increases in labor supply.

However, if labor in a country is a mixture of legal and illegal and the illegal segment grows exponentially, the winner will be the firms. The losers will be the labor of both kinds. One is unemployed because he/she wants a decent wage and the other is exploited because he/she don't have a choice.

The firm makes wonderful profits.

-NALs
 

macocael

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Aug 3, 2004
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NALS all theory and no research

firms will hire more people to do what one machine could do. The reason is because its cheaper to hire more people than to buy and maintain a single machine which will produce the exact same results.

In theory, Dominican sugar industry should had modernized (that is, become more capital intensive) a long time ago. The reason for this was simple, Dominicans felt that cutting cane by hand was too much work for too little money. They wanted to work and be paid wages that they can at least use for a decent lifestyle rather than being virtual slaves.

The way the Dominican government (and later Dominican sugar cane firms) reacted to this was by importing foreign labor. At first the labor was imported from the British West Indies (their decendants are known as Cocolos) and later the labor started to be recruited from Haiti, especially once the Cocolos refused to work for the same reason Dominicans refused to work before. And again, history repeated itself, rather than letting the nature of market capitalism work, employers decided to tamper with it by imported foreign labor.

All this increase in foreign labor kept wages low.

What is the problem with Haitian labor demand despite high unemployment in the DR?

The problem is this, most Haitians are in the DR illegally.

This means that not only are they putting downward pressure on wages in unskilled sectors of the economy due to the increase in labor supply, but their illegality causes them to not be recognized by the Dominican state (that is why they are illegal, they have not registered their existence in the DR through official linkages) and firms are able to exploit them at the prevailing market wage.

Due to their illegality, the prevailing market wage among them will be lower than it would be for a legal Haitian or for anyone else for that matter.

The more illegals enter the country, the lower the wages become. The lower they become, the less appealing such work will be for Dominicans, Cocolos, and other people who want a decent life.

Illegal Haitians take those badly paying jobs because:

1. They are illegal in the country, thus they take whatever jobs they are offered at whatever rate.

2. They come from a country where they were not working at all and were starving, so the first sight of a job, regardless how bad the pay rate is, they will take. It sure beats whatever they were doing in Haiti which is nothing.

3. Because they lack skills and/or are not legal in the country, they are not able to demand equal pay as citizens or legal immigrants. This is the case because of the threat of deportation. Also, they are not able to ask for help from government institutions because they need identification and many don't have ID's, plus they are illegal in the country and that would over shadow everything else.

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Firms hire illegal Haitian immigrants because they offer the cheapest labor dictated by a combination of market forces and legality issue regarding their presence in the country via unofficial channels.

Illegal Haitian immigrants take those jobs because its better than anything they had in Haiti, they are illegal in the country and are under constant threat of being reported to authorities and deported.

Dominicans refuse to work in similar jobs because wages are too low for them. They are legally protected by Dominican laws and this protection (in conjunction with the influx of illegal immigrants) becomes highly unfavorable for firms. Rather than paying the prevailing wage Dominicans would ask for such work, firms prefer to cut their labor cost by hiring illegal immigrants.

Given the low level of pay, Dominicans and anyone really, will begin to look at such job as below them. If wages were to reflect the real market price (assuming no illegal immigrants), most Dominicans would probably not have as bad a view towards such jobs as they do now.


-NALs

Your emphasis on theoretical precepts is causing you to overlook the complexities that prevail here. First of all your capsule history of sugar production on this island is inadequate.

it is true that the Dominican sugar industry is currently suffering in part from a past lack of investment to modernize the "plant" and thereby create a more efficient production system: the buyers who snapped up the ingenios after the system was privatized a few years back were dismayed to discover that nothing worked properly and production was positively feudal in nature -- all dependent on cheap manual labor. THere are very few mechanized harvesters and the like in our cane fields. The industry currently is collapsed, only a few mills function, and La Romana, owned by the Fanjul family, is the only one putting out significant tonnage. They are supplying most of the US sugar quota, which, by the way, was raised by 21 percent a year ago.

But the rest of your history is cockeyed. The cane industry was not owned by Dominicans or by the Dominican state until later. In the 1870s the industry was created anew by foreign capitalists and engineers with the money and know how to modernize production. Cubans, Americans and Germans built the mills that we see today. Ingenio Porvenir -- the mill of the future -- was built by Cubans in 1898. It was certainly an impressive thing back then, but now it looks like a Blakean inferno. The labor was a mix of English speaking Caribbean blacks from islands like Jamaica, St kitts, Barbadoes, etc -- Cocolos, as you state -- and also plenty of Dominicans, Cubans, Gallegos (yes indeed Spaniards from Galicia, and lots of them), and Haitians. Haitians quickly outnumbered the rest early on, partly out of their desperation and partly out of convenience. The trafficking in Haitain labor became established very early on because they were the cheapest closest largest pool of labor. The Dominican govt had nothing to do with this. In fact, the "misters" who owned these extremely profitable plantations made all the arrangements and even floated the Dominican govt of Ulises Heureaux all through his administration, because they were the only ones with money enough to do so. They were running this place. Eventually sugar was controlled by two North American companies, and after the American invasion of 1916, it was transferred to dominican control and the flow of Haitian workers was formally legislated by a treaty between Trujillo and the then president of Haiti. For an interesting look at the bateys in that latter period, one need only read Aristy's Over.

Now as to the current situation, your theory, as such, is certainly valid but it fails to account for the complex situation on the ground. First of all, while the Haitians are illegal, and that certainly restricts their movement and economic opportunities, it does not strictly account for the types of low paying jobs they take or for the fact that wages remain low at these jobs. Yes, many who work in construction or in the farms of the Cibao do so because that is what is offered them and they have to maintain a low profile, so they are less likely to go looking for work in an open manner and entertain many options. But in fact many of them are entrepreneurial and will go into some small business for themselves if they have a chance. Many of them also work in spheres other than construction or agriculture. They are hotel workers, informal watchmen, chiriperos, artisans, ambulatory vendors, maintenance workers, and so on. they are admirably adaptable, they pick up languages fast, they are constantly exploring new economic niches, and they are always looking to better themselves, seeking out opportunities and making things happen for themselves -- much the same can be said for the dominican immigrants in NYC, who also display many of the same virtues. There is something to be said for immigrants after all, since their energy and their all consuming desire to better their situation tend to be of great benefit to the countries where they emigrate.

Btw, It is a myth that the Haitians were all starving or without employment back in Haiti: in fact though Haiti has an unemployment level of 75% that figure accounts for jobs in the formal economy; however, in the informal economy most haitians are to be found with some kind of work. That work is not remunerative and conditions are such, with political instability, insecurity, ecological mishaps, and so on, that many are compelled to look for work elsewhere and hope for a better life, or at least a bit of extra cash that they can send back to their families. It is not that they were "doing nothing" but what they are doing is not sufficiently remunerative, and there are very few resources. Nor can it be said that the Haitian migrant laborers are without skills. that is an unfounded assertion that borders on being offensive.

As to the argument that the illegality of these workers keeps the wages low, well of course that has some truth, but the overall situation is a bit more complex. While their illegality does hamper the Haitians, it does not really affect wages overall or conspire in creating a situation that dissuades Dominicans from considering these jobs. First of all, Haitians are often just filling a vacuum that existed prior to the current rise in migration. The peons working in the Cibao have steadily diminished in number as the young people head to the cities looking for work, and this has been going on for a very long time. When Villa Trina rose up against the Haitians and drove them out, the coffee plantations suffered a huge loss because they couldnt bring in the harvest -- the dominican laborers were simply not there any more to replace the haitians who had fled. The low wages paid for these jobs -- harvesting, knocking down structures to prepare for new construction and so on -- were already low long before the Haitians arrived. What has happened is that development and (dominican) migration in the past ten years have proceeded apace and changed the nature of the average Dominican worker. Their expectations have risen along with their opportunities. I doubt very much that dominicans today would consider these jobs if wages were to rise -- that is just not part of their vision anymore. None of the young people I know in the villages around Bonao -- a veritable breadbasket for the country -- would consider doing farmwork. And not just because of low wages; no, they simply dont think of themselves as farmers anymore. They listen to reggaeton and dream of an urban life of consumerism.

Moreover, while Haitians will fill the lowest rungs in these industries -- agriculture, construction, hotels -- there are many dominicans who also work in them and are also mistreated, badly paid, and recruited in a manner that borders on slavery: talk with the hotel workers union and you will discover that the system is not all that different from the bateys and whatever the laws may state the fact is that wages are too low to provide these workers with a decent living. They squawk, they are booted. The "prevailing wage that Dominicans would ask" is not even a factor here, because the wages remain unjustly low regardless of whether a dominican or a haitian is the worker. my point is that this is a country where wages are low for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with Haitian migrant labor and those low wages keep a good number of Dominicans as well as illegal haitians in thrall to a very unjust, quasi- (or perhaps neo-) colonialist system.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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It's Macocael, again!!! What a surprise!! ;)

The cane industry was not owned by Dominicans or by the Dominican state until later.
Macocael,

I know how the sugar cane industry was rivitalized in the late 1800s and who did the rivatalization, thank you very much!

However, I never stated that the sugar cane industry was owned by Dominicans. What I did state was that Dominican firms operated in such industry (in addition to the state). Last time I checked, a firm that is based in the DR is Dominican, regardless where the owner is from! Sometimes, public perception clinges to old realities.

Mc Donald's is still refered to as an American company, despite being multi-national and owned by shareholders who may or may not be Americans.

Mercedes Benz's is still seen as a German company, despite such car company being owned by its parent company Daimler Chrysler, which itself is seen as an American company despite the same issue I described for Mc Donald's.

Most ingenios that once operated in the DR were Dominican, the firms (with the exception of a few multinational firms which were often American based) were founded in the DR and thus makes such firms Dominican.

The owners could have been as Cuban as the Brugal family, as Italian as the Vicini's, etc. but their company was and continues to be Dominican just how Mercedes Benz continues to be seen as a German company.

:tired:

First of all, while the Haitians are illegal, and that certainly restricts their movement and economic opportunities, it does not strictly account for the types of low paying jobs they take or for the fact that wages remain low at these jobs. Yes, many who work in construction or in the farms of the Cibao do so because that is what is offered them and they have to maintain a low profile, so they are less likely to go looking for work in an open manner and entertain many options.
Ok.

You mention that it does not strictly account for the types of low paying jobs they take, but then go on to explain how they end up taking the low paying jobs.

In addition, you totally separate low wages from the fact of excess labor supply, not to mention the double misfortune of being illegal which gives even more power to the employer in deciding wages.

But in fact many of them are entrepreneurial and will go into some small business for themselves if they have a chance.
Never did I mentioned that they were not entrepreneurial.

And of course they will go into some small business, but you said it: "if they had the chance!

The fact that they don't have the chance to go into business for themselves is the reason why most illegal Haitian immigrants are wage laborers and not business owners, not even informal business owners although there are many who are, but most are not!

They are hotel workers, informal watchmen, chiriperos, artisans, ambulatory vendors, maintenance workers, and so on. they are admirably adaptable, they pick up languages fast, they are constantly exploring new economic niches, and they are always looking to better themselves, seeking out opportunities and making things happen for themselves -- much the same can be said for the dominican immigrants in NYC, who also display many of the same virtues.
That is true and never did I denied such.

They are hotel workers, in fact according to a report presented to the media earlier this year over 80% of hotel workers are supposedly illegal immigrants, despite the fact that Dominican law states that no more than 20% of employees in any given firm can be foreign.

Not only are they foreign, but illegal foreigners exacerbating the labor pool for those hotel job openings.

Hotel owners love such because it lowers labor cost.

1. Because of the excess labor and 2. their illegality, a perfect combination for wages to fall to levels that only someone who is illegal would take, plus or minus a few exceptions, as usual.

Samething pretty much applies to everything else.

The chiriperos and ambulatory vendors are an example of insufficient job openings available, forcing them (along with unemployed Dominicans who don't receive remittances) to scratch a living off any possible thing, even if it means going into the informal economy.

Immigrants are give much to a nation in various ways, lots of positive things.

They add to diversity, inject fresh ideas and ways of looking at things, etc.

But, along with the good comes the not so good.

To mention one does not makes the other one false, but to mention one does gives an insight into the double reality of massive illegal migration.

If only a person could mention the negatives without someone always coming in and countering such with the positives.

Interestingly, not many people do the opposite when its the positives that are being stated, at least not in this forum.

Btw, It is a myth that the Haitians were all starving or without employment back in Haiti: in fact though Haiti has an unemployment level of 75% that figure accounts for jobs in the formal economy; however, in the informal economy most haitians are to be found with some kind of work.
Yes, I know that.

"Hustling" is a very real thing not just in Haiti, but everywhere.

However, it doesn't erases the reality that the reason why Haitians flow out of Haiti is because of the lack of formal, stable, good paying jobs; personal safety; so on and so forth.

They certainly are doing much better in the DR, overall, than they are in Haiti, despite the accusation of abuse and discrimination and such.

In fact, I have never met a Haitian in the DR who is willing to move back to Haiti. Of course, if Haiti as a different kind of place, yes many would move back; but wanting to move back and being willing to move back are two different things.

They are doing better in the DR than in Haiti, despite all the problems of discrimination and such.

Nor can it be said that the Haitian migrant laborers are without skills. that is an unfounded assertion that borders on being offensive.
Again, the no skill or unskilled argument I have already explained.

It does not meant absulte lack of skill, but rather different kind of skills compared to other types of skills in more modern sectors of the economy.

I am insulted at the fact that you are claiming such to be on the verge of offense.

You yourself wrote the following quote:

First of all, while the Haitians are illegal, and that certainly restricts their movement and economic opportunities
If I was to take every word you posted for at its face value and nothing more, I could easly say that you yourself are anti-haitian or even offensive.

Why would you assume all Haitians are illegal? Sure, the vast majority are illegal, but a vast majority is not all of them and writing a sentence like "the Haitians are illegal" implies that all Haitians are illegal.

In a very technical way, you are wrong. If I want to interprit such as an offense or anti-haitianism I probably could, if I focus and analyze each word and put tremendous attention to the detail while completely missing the point being made.

To see a Haitian and assume such person is illegal is an insult to those who are not! Even more so, it's simply an insult, period. Perhaps implying that the only thing Haitians can be is illegal.

Get my point Maco?

Lighten up a bit. See the entire message and not some detail that could be use to impose an image or viewpoint that is simply unfounded and incorrect.

As to the argument that the illegality of these workers keeps the wages low, well of course that has some truth, but the overall situation is a bit more complex. While their illegality does hamper the Haitians, it does not really affect wages overall or conspire in creating a situation that dissuades Dominicans from considering these jobs.
Mmm hmmm..... :rolleyes:

Let's continue with the following quote prior to my response:

First of all, Haitians are often just filling a vacuum that existed prior to the current rise in migration.
Ok, how can their illegality hamper the Haitians and not affect the wages overall?

If an illegal immigrant market wage is lower than that of a legal immigrant or person, how will it not affect the wages overall???

Of course it will affect overall wages!!

How? Why hire legal people when illegals do the same job for less??? Hire all illegal and once you have a predominant illegal force of employees, whatever other employees would like to work there will have to face one of two options:

1. Work at the prevailing wage

2. Move out of the way so some illegal immigrant who will work at the prevailing wage can start working.

How is that "not affecting" overall wages???

Concerning the vacuum, a vacuum is created when rapid changes in the workforce occur.

A good example would be massive emigration which leads to a shortage in labor. Such shortage would create a vacuum or crisis that is temporary.

Such crisis can be superceded in two ways:

1. Increase capital investment to replace the lost productivity.

2. Increase employment. Obviously, if legal employment becomes scarce, that would mean illegal immigrants would fill such positions.

It will not lead to a collapse for the firms flexible enough to react to their changing reality. A firm that invests in itself is a firm that will be successful, even if no one is there to fill such vacuum.

It sounds easier than its actually done, but it can be done, without the influx of illegal immigrants.

A rise in illegal migration at a later time after such vacuum has been abated leads to firms being even more dependent on ever cheapening illegal labor supply, thus favoring more and more illegal labor over legal labor.

When Villa Trina rose up against the Haitians and drove them out, the coffee plantations suffered a huge loss because they couldnt bring in the harvest -- the dominican laborers were simply not there any more to replace the haitians who had fled.
That's an example of a short term problem that if it would not have had the influx of illegal immigrants returning, would have been solved by capital investment in machinery which would lower the amount of labor needed. In addition, would have lead to an increase in wages until such increase attracts the much lesser amount of labor necessary for such firm to be able to continue and/or recoup its productivity level.

Firms either adjust to their changing situations or perish. Most will adjust rather than perish. And such firms would have had much more capital investment if the problem of illegal immigration was not as bad as it is.

Why?

There would be less people working in such coffee plantation, higher wages, and without the effect of illegal migration such firm would have never seen its workforce being spooked.

The low wages paid for these jobs -- harvesting, knocking down structures to prepare for new construction and so on -- were already low long before the Haitians arrived.
What has not happened has been an increase in capital investment.

Rather than knocking down structures one block at a time, such structures should be knocked down with machinery.

Rather than harvesting sugar cane or many other things by hand, they should be harvested with machinery.

The change for such firms to be more capital intensive has been slowed or prevented completely precisely because of the flow of migration which has increased the labor supply in segments of the population where such labor supply should had dropped, pressuring such firms to invest in machinery and new technology.

Continues on next post:

-NALs
 
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NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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I doubt very much that dominicans today would consider these jobs if wages were to rise -- that is just not part of their vision anymore. None of the young people I know in the villages around Bonao -- a veritable breadbasket for the country -- would consider doing farmwork.
Money makes people do things they would not rather do.

In fact, that's why businesses pay people, to do what they rather not do.

Why do so many Dominicans want to live in the city? Abroad?

To live a more modern lifestyle and to do that, they need higher wages. They know wages are higher in the city than in the country and consequently even higher abroad.

No surprise they want the money in order to buy the things they see on television.

If the wages of farmwork were high enough to able them the ability to buy the goods and services they desire (nice house, good car, good clothes, good food, etc), such jobs will become more desirable.

It's not something that happens overnight, but rather gradually. First, the one's who put the least attention to pupular notions of farmwork will go in, with their higher earnings they will be able to buy the goods and services they want.

Others will see such person progressing and they are going to ask themselves why is so and so progressing and they are not.

That leads them to inquire more information (not to mention the initial worker tells family and friends).

That cycle grows and grows and as more and more people see the benefit of working in a farm (such benefit being seen in higher incomes and the ability to live a decent lifestyle) the stigma of farmwork goes 'out the window'.

Again, its not something that happens overnight, but it eventually happens and it all starts with increased wages.

And not just because of low wages; no, they simply dont think of themselves as farmers anymore. They listen to reggaeton and dream of an urban life of consumerism.
They dream of an urban life of consumerism, but above all they dream of consumerism.

If they can get such consumerism via high paying farmwork, they will do such as I explained already, not overnight, but eventually.

Moreover, while Haitians will fill the lowest rungs in these industries -- agriculture, construction, hotels -- there are many dominicans who also work in them and are also mistreated, badly paid, and recruited in a manner that borders on slavery:
Of course, people either work at the prevailing wage or conditions or they don't work.

Be employed at the prevailing wage or conditions or choose to be unemployed. Make your pick!

The "prevailing wage that Dominicans would ask" is not even a factor here, because the wages remain unjustly low regardless of whether a dominican or a haitian is the worker. my point is that this is a country where wages are low for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with Haitian migrant labor and those low wages keep a good number of Dominicans as well as illegal haitians in thrall to a very unjust, quasi- (or perhaps neo-) colonialist system.
Now we are getting somewhere.

The wages are being decided by sheer market force.

However, the market is being manipulated by widespead disregard for the written labor laws from both, the government and the firm.

Notice, I never blame the illegal immigrants for the illegal migration problem in the DR. I simply state what happens when illegal migration increases labor supply in a market place.

Why does illegal migration exist is where the real culprit lies and its not in the illegals themselves, nor in the firms (although they have plenty of fault), but on the inability of the government to enforce its own laws.

I 100% blame the problem of illegal migration on the Dominican government's negligence to this issue, BUT that does not changes the effect such negligence has in distorting the labor market.

Despite that, the market economy works. Whether its left alone or distorted, it works accordingly, but it works and that is my point!

-NALs
 

something_of_the_night

Has left the building...
Feb 7, 2006
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Just one question, Nals:

Have you even seen a batey... from a distance...from the comfort of a rented yipeta...as you increase speed to 120 mph?
 

cobraboy

Pro-Bono Demolition Hobbyist
Jul 24, 2004
40,964
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Nals makes some correct points, from a economic market model perspective.

(edit) This situation is common around the world in markets surrounding illegal immigrant communities. The US is suffering with the problem with 12,000,000 illegal Mexican immigrants right now. The market is usually distorted in the unskiiled labor job market.
 
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macocael

Bronze
Aug 3, 2004
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¡ay dios! and now I have to answer all this longwinded argumentation. NALS makes some good points about economic theory, but again, once we look at the situation on the ground the subtleties tend to blur the theoretical framework. That is the simple point I am making. Ok, when I get some time, I will try to answer some of the key points. Again, it comes down to exposing certain assumptions that dont bear up to scrutiny. I will mention one here. who in their right mind would argue that people will return to backbreaking farmwork should the wages rise considerably? If you think that a life of consumerism is merely a matter of earning higher wages and thus can be had in the campos if only wages were sufficiently high, then you are mistaken. Consumerism is by its very nature an urban phenomenon and requires an infrastructure that isnt present in the campo; moreover, as I just pointed out the wages have nothing to do with it, since the work is perceived, rightly, to be physically intolerable. This is anyway a ridiculous argument since agricultural production cannot sustain high wages, so really this is going nowhere, but I think we can reasonably agree that people are not pavlovian dogs, and wages are not the only motivation behind their actions. People's actions are "overdetermined"-- that is, there are many complex motives at work. Yes, I would agree that many people end up as wage slaves, they do things they'd rather not simply because the job pays well, but everyone draws a line somewhere and it would take more than higher wages to induce a movement back to the campos. They dont move to the city just because they think can find higher wages, and once they are in the cities, they tend to become urbanized and wouldnt think of living in the campos again. Just as Dominican immigrants to the states become americanized and Haitians to DR become dominicanized and they settle in.

Actually, on that last note, there is in fact much movement back and forth for the Haitian laborers, and not because of coercion -- many laborers return regularly to Haiti to tend to matters at home and then return to DR for more work. I find your argument in regard to Haitian desire/will to return somewhat convoluted:

"I have never met a Haitian in the DR who is willing to move back to Haiti. Of course, if Haiti was a different kind of place, yes many would move back; but wanting to move back and being willing to move back are two different things."

Aside from the fact that your personal encounters with a few Haitians dont count as evidence here, (and when are you ever here, NALS?), the rest of it is not evidence of anything really. First of all, many do regularly --- they go back and forth. But let us confine ourselves to your main point: Common sense dictates that many would go back if they could, and that many would never have left in the first place. But that fact doesnt really help to substantiate anything other than the very simple thesis that they come here seeking jobs and better wages. Fine, all well and good. but having said that, we havent said really all that much in terms of describing the specific situation of the haitian migrant laborers or their effect on the Dominican economy. such a statement is nothing more than a basic orientation in our investigation, a general framework. It is too simple to provide us a concrete picture of how it all works in reality. Essentially your thesis is that Haitians come here because of a lack of remunerative work in their own country, and they enter into an economic system which enforces low wages because of their illegality and their numbers. Fair enough. But I am merely adding that wages were already quite low in these areas and that had nothing to do with Haitian labor: their numbers and illegality are contributing but not exclusive factors; moreover, the assumption appears to be that this situation thus functions to exclude Dominicans from potential employment opportunities, presumably because they are competing with another labor pool willing to work for less and constituting such numbers that employers have no incentive to adjust wages or conditions so as to entice workers. The Dominicans wont work these jobs for these wages, in essence. My point is simply that they werent working these jobs anyway, they were already in the process of leaving such work well behind, and that they arent interested in competing in any shape or form for such work regardless of the wages offered. My basic point is that there is no real competition between the two labor pools. there are other sectors however, where both labor pools are working side by side, such as the hotels, and here you will find a very complex situation that requires further examination.

Finally one other quick point. You bridle at my suggestion that your characterization of the Haitians as unskilled is offensive. But your statement was a bald generalization: "Because they lack skills and/or are not legal in the country, they are not able to demand equal pay as citizens or legal immigrants." You are characterizing this rather large and diverse labor pool as uniformly "unskilled". You did not bother to qualify this statement, as you did subsequently, by explaining that "It does not meant (sic) absulte (sic) lack of skill, but rather different kind of skills compared to other types of skills in more modern sectors of the economy." This explanation is still not clear, by the way, because you do not in fact know just what skills these people possess, but at least we are beginning to make reasonable distinctions here instead of blanket generalizations. Your little lesson about taking things at face value doesnt actually apply to the statement of mine that you pick to illustrate your point, because that was not a blanket generalization about all haitians in DR; I was clearly referring to the pool of illegal haitians and not all haitians. Context helps to determine these things and I think the context was sufficiently clear. In your case it was not.

OK, more jousting later. Time for lunch.
 

KeithF

New member
Jul 9, 2006
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Your questions seem to imply one thing (to me at least): You may not be fully aware of basic economic theory.

A patronising beginning, ;) saved by an interesting debate!:cool:

And one that suggests to me there isn't a simple answer.

The initial question though was why are there Dominicans living in apparently extreme poverty, rather than being employed instead of the Haitians? And I think from the answers below, it is because of labour laws. So, is there a sizable group of Dominicans who are also working illegally?

As for other points raised, monetary reward is too simplistic. [Hertzberg's 'hygiene factors' etc?]. I can't see any level of monetary reward that would make me want to become a strawberry picker as I'm not that concerned about monetary rewards, it is not my primary motivator. Nursing is not a particularly well paid job, although I'll admit, I'm now at a level where I earn quite a bit more than the average wage in the UK But I can also say, in all honesty, I've never applied for a job based upon the wages and indeed, have twice moved to jobs that paid less because they rewarded me more in other ways. Yes, I have a 'minimum threshold' before I have that luxury but once beyond it, there is freedom to choose. Largely, my wife (also a nurse) and I 'gained that luxury' by choosing not to have children. Where there are dependents to be provided for, a willingness to take any job is raised. If I had children to put through school and meet their health needs, I might be forced to consider that 'well paid' strawberry picking job at some point. Certainly, it would be rare to take new jobs with pay cuts if that impacts upon your dependents well being.

However...

Your local population who are turning their backs on farming. If you paid them enough, you argue they would return. In the UK, many 'affluent' city dwellers have purchased holiday/weekend property in the countryside. This (basic supply & demand) has caused a massive increase in the price of rural property. Due to planning restrictions, more [affordable] property can not be built, so the young are leaving for the towns. Farming is seen as low skill, low paid & hard work. Even those who want to do it, can't afford to buy property in the village that they grew up in. So, the 'indigenous' population migrates to the city for a 'better way of life'. They are replaced by migrant workers, largely East Europeans, Polish predominantly.

But, if the wages on the farm were increased sufficiently to attract or retain the original workforce, and enable them to buy a property [or whatever they aspire to] then the farms would cease to be economically viable. And that is the same for cabbages in England or bananas in Dominican Republic.

So...

Why isn't the government doing anything about it? In the UK, they are considering things like 'key worker housing' and have tried schemes in London, where they are now experiencing a shortage of skilled professionals, nurses, teachers, paramedics etc, who can't afford to live there. And we are largely accepting that we need migrant workers (who are here legally due to being in the European Union).

In the Dominican Republic, presumably the government could, if it desired, clamp down on illegal workers, fine companies that breach rules and strengthen unions. But this would potentially, stifle growth in the construction industry and put prices up generally? Holidays to DR would become more expensive if everyone was 'legal', so the key reason for coming to the DR in many peoples eyes would be taken away. And the coffee, sugar and bananas still wouldn't be harvested because the people who historically would have done it have migrated themselves?

Where DR appears to me to be incongruous, is that you have a broadly socialist government that appears to be leaning towards a free [labour] market economy by not implementing the existing laws? Do they (at government level) or the people generally, see it as a 'problem' having Haitian workers? As I understand it (and I'm happy to be shot down on this point) there are 'simmering' racial tensions regarding Haitians?

With high unemployment, as I see it and bearing in mind the responses so far, the Dominican Republic has three choices...

1. Do nothing, GDP is increasing, tourism is growing. Accept a largely illegal, migrant work force is needed to under-pin economic growth.
2. Clamp down on illegal work force and reduce unemployment, with a knock on improvement in quality of life for those people who currently can't work, but at the risk of halting growth or even moving in to recession.
3. Remove, or at least, re-evaluate the labour laws in such a manner that Dominican people can be employed instead of illegal workforce but recognising that this would potentially lead to a (further) driving down of wages for the poorest (least educated) elements of the work force.

Any alternatives that I'm missing?
 

Kyle

Silver
Jun 2, 2006
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on another note, the haitian women are undercutting the dominican girls at the bars and the clubs.