It's Macocael, again!!! What a surprise!!
The cane industry was not owned by Dominicans or by the Dominican state until later.
Macocael,
I know how the sugar cane industry was rivitalized in the late 1800s and who did the rivatalization, thank you very much!
However, I never stated that the sugar cane industry was owned by Dominicans. What I did state was that Dominican firms operated in such industry (in addition to the state). Last time I checked, a firm that is based in the DR is Dominican, regardless where the owner is from! Sometimes, public perception clinges to old realities.
Mc Donald's is still refered to as an American company, despite being multi-national and owned by shareholders who may or may not be Americans.
Mercedes Benz's is still seen as a German company, despite such car company being owned by its parent company Daimler Chrysler, which itself is seen as an American company despite the same issue I described for Mc Donald's.
Most ingenios that once operated in the DR were Dominican, the firms (with the exception of a few multinational firms which were often American based) were founded in the DR and thus makes such firms Dominican.
The owners could have been as Cuban as the Brugal family, as Italian as the Vicini's, etc. but their company was and continues to be Dominican just how Mercedes Benz continues to be seen as a German company.
:tired:
First of all, while the Haitians are illegal, and that certainly restricts their movement and economic opportunities, it does not strictly account for the types of low paying jobs they take or for the fact that wages remain low at these jobs. Yes, many who work in construction or in the farms of the Cibao do so because that is what is offered them and they have to maintain a low profile, so they are less likely to go looking for work in an open manner and entertain many options.
Ok.
You mention that it does not strictly account for the types of low paying jobs they take, but then go on to explain how they end up taking the low paying jobs.
In addition, you totally separate low wages from the fact of excess labor supply, not to mention the double misfortune of being illegal which gives even more power to the employer in deciding wages.
But in fact many of them are entrepreneurial and will go into some small business for themselves if they have a chance.
Never did I mentioned that they were not entrepreneurial.
And of course they will go into some small business, but you said it: "
if they had the chance!
The fact that they don't have
the chance to go into business for themselves is the reason why most illegal Haitian immigrants are wage laborers and not business owners, not even informal business owners although there are many who are, but most are not!
They are hotel workers, informal watchmen, chiriperos, artisans, ambulatory vendors, maintenance workers, and so on. they are admirably adaptable, they pick up languages fast, they are constantly exploring new economic niches, and they are always looking to better themselves, seeking out opportunities and making things happen for themselves -- much the same can be said for the dominican immigrants in NYC, who also display many of the same virtues.
That is true and never did I denied such.
They are hotel workers, in fact according to a report presented to the media earlier this year over 80% of hotel workers are supposedly illegal immigrants, despite the fact that Dominican law states that no more than 20% of employees in any given firm can be foreign.
Not only are they foreign, but illegal foreigners exacerbating the labor pool for those hotel job openings.
Hotel owners love such because it lowers labor cost.
1. Because of the excess labor and 2. their illegality, a perfect combination for wages to fall to levels that only someone who is illegal would take, plus or minus a few exceptions, as usual.
Samething pretty much applies to everything else.
The chiriperos and ambulatory vendors are an example of insufficient job openings available, forcing them (along with unemployed Dominicans who don't receive remittances) to scratch a living off any possible thing, even if it means going into the informal economy.
Immigrants are give much to a nation in various ways, lots of positive things.
They add to diversity, inject fresh ideas and ways of looking at things, etc.
But, along with the good comes the not so good.
To mention one does not makes the other one false, but to mention one does gives an insight into the double reality of massive illegal migration.
If only a person could mention the negatives without someone always coming in and countering such with the positives.
Interestingly, not many people do the opposite when its the positives that are being stated, at least not in this forum.
Btw, It is a myth that the Haitians were all starving or without employment back in Haiti: in fact though Haiti has an unemployment level of 75% that figure accounts for jobs in the formal economy; however, in the informal economy most haitians are to be found with some kind of work.
Yes, I know that.
"Hustling" is a very real thing not just in Haiti, but everywhere.
However, it doesn't erases the reality that the reason why Haitians flow out of Haiti is because of the lack of formal, stable, good paying jobs; personal safety; so on and so forth.
They certainly are doing much better in the DR, overall, than they are in Haiti, despite the accusation of abuse and discrimination and such.
In fact, I have never met a Haitian in the DR who is willing to move back to Haiti. Of course, if Haiti as a different kind of place, yes many would move back; but wanting to move back and being willing to move back are two different things.
They are doing better in the DR than in Haiti, despite all the problems of discrimination and such.
Nor can it be said that the Haitian migrant laborers are without skills. that is an unfounded assertion that borders on being offensive.
Again, the no skill or unskilled argument I have already explained.
It does not meant absulte lack of skill, but rather different kind of skills compared to other types of skills in more modern sectors of the economy.
I am insulted at the fact that you are claiming such to be on the verge of offense.
You yourself wrote the following quote:
First of all, while the Haitians are illegal, and that certainly restricts their movement and economic opportunities
If I was to take every word you posted for at its face value and nothing more, I could easly say that you yourself are anti-haitian or even offensive.
Why would you assume
all Haitians are illegal? Sure, the vast majority are illegal, but a vast majority is not all of them and writing a sentence like "the Haitians are illegal" implies that all Haitians are illegal.
In a very technical way, you are wrong. If I want to interprit such as an offense or anti-haitianism I probably could, if I focus and analyze each word and put tremendous attention to the detail while completely missing the point being made.
To see a Haitian and assume such person is illegal is an insult to those who are not! Even more so, it's simply an insult, period. Perhaps implying that the only thing Haitians can be is illegal.
Get my point Maco?
Lighten up a bit. See the entire message and not some detail that could be use to impose an image or viewpoint that is simply unfounded and incorrect.
As to the argument that the illegality of these workers keeps the wages low, well of course that has some truth, but the overall situation is a bit more complex. While their illegality does hamper the Haitians, it does not really affect wages overall or conspire in creating a situation that dissuades Dominicans from considering these jobs.
Mmm hmmm.....
Let's continue with the following quote prior to my response:
First of all, Haitians are often just filling a vacuum that existed prior to the current rise in migration.
Ok, how can their illegality hamper the Haitians and not affect the wages overall?
If an illegal immigrant market wage is lower than that of a legal immigrant or person, how will it not affect the wages overall???
Of course it will affect overall wages!!
How? Why hire legal people when illegals do the same job for less??? Hire all illegal and once you have a predominant illegal force of employees, whatever other employees would like to work there will have to face one of two options:
1. Work at the prevailing wage
2. Move out of the way so some illegal immigrant who will work at the prevailing wage can start working.
How is that "not affecting" overall wages???
Concerning the vacuum, a vacuum is created when rapid changes in the workforce occur.
A good example would be massive emigration which leads to a shortage in labor. Such shortage would create a vacuum or crisis that is temporary.
Such crisis can be superceded in two ways:
1. Increase capital investment to replace the lost productivity.
2. Increase employment. Obviously, if legal employment becomes scarce, that would mean illegal immigrants would fill such positions.
It will not lead to a collapse for the firms flexible enough to react to their changing reality. A firm that invests in itself is a firm that will be successful, even if no one is there to fill such vacuum.
It sounds easier than its actually done, but it can be done, without the influx of illegal immigrants.
A rise in illegal migration at a later time after such vacuum has been abated leads to firms being even more dependent on ever cheapening illegal labor supply, thus favoring more and more illegal labor over legal labor.
When Villa Trina rose up against the Haitians and drove them out, the coffee plantations suffered a huge loss because they couldnt bring in the harvest -- the dominican laborers were simply not there any more to replace the haitians who had fled.
That's an example of a short term problem that if it would not have had the influx of illegal immigrants returning, would have been solved by capital investment in machinery which would lower the amount of labor needed. In addition, would have lead to an increase in wages until such increase attracts the much lesser amount of labor necessary for such firm to be able to continue and/or recoup its productivity level.
Firms either adjust to their changing situations or perish. Most will adjust rather than perish. And such firms would have had much more capital investment if the problem of illegal immigration was not as bad as it is.
Why?
There would be less people working in such coffee plantation, higher wages, and without the effect of illegal migration such firm would have never seen its workforce being spooked.
The low wages paid for these jobs -- harvesting, knocking down structures to prepare for new construction and so on -- were already low long before the Haitians arrived.
What has not happened has been an increase in capital investment.
Rather than knocking down structures one block at a time, such structures should be knocked down with machinery.
Rather than harvesting sugar cane or many other things by hand, they should be harvested with machinery.
The change for such firms to be more capital intensive has been slowed or prevented completely precisely because of the flow of migration which has increased the labor supply in segments of the population where such labor supply should had dropped, pressuring such firms to invest in machinery and new technology.
Continues on next post:
-NALs