Strange Statements from the US Delegation

It's a shame that the Embassy did not have a briefing session with the idiots before going out to those bateyes.
The paper was also very wrong about the Dominican Constitution regardign citizenship. It, the Constitution, clearly states that children born to illegal or transient people or people working at a foreign embassy are not Dominican citizens.

And gee, I wonder when the Dominican delegation will be leaving for California and Arizona to look at "migrant working conditions"......

HB

Chris said:

Meek, lawmakers monitor Haitian treatment in Dominican Republic | Gainesville.com | The Gainesville Sun | Gainesville, Fla.

Two paragraphs specifically seems quite inflammatory to me...

"I think it's the United States' responsibility to monitor the condition of workers in an economy such as this one that we're supporting through our trade efforts," said Meek, whose district is home to many Haitians. "Many of my constituents tell me about concerns about the conditions of their families" in the Dominican Republic.

"This is an example of government not caring about its people - looking for continuous investment - but abandoning its people," Payne said. "If you want to abandon your people then don't do it with our money."

Wow! Did you ever get an audience with these people TexasBill?

I'm not a spammer and have no interest in Ace Hardware ... for some or other reason, when I copied the URL, the Ace Hardware ad came with and does not want to leave... damn stupid thing! and now I have run out of editing time window... geez! [That will be the HTML at the end of your post, I had to remove it from the quote too -Keith]

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Just wondering, 'cause I don't know...
1. What is the situation regarding children born in the USA to illegal immigrants? Do they automatically become US citizens, have access to a US passport etc?
2. How well does the US treat illegal immigrants? Do they have access to health care & education?

Not that this should be used as an excuse for the way DR treats Hiatians but the impression from this side of the pond is that illegal immigration to the US is needed for the low skill, low paid jobs but without 'having to give' any benefit to those people. If that impression is accurate, then surely it's a case of people living in glass houses not throwing stones?

KeithF said:

Just wondering, 'cause I don't know...
1. What is the situation regarding children born in the USA to illegal immigrants? Do they automatically become US citizens, have access to a US passport etc?

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Yes.

[quote-KeithF]2. How well does the US treat illegal immigrants? Do they have access to health care & education?[/quote]Yes.

Here is an assessment of immigration in the US. I wonder to what extent it may apply to the DR with the Haitians:

Immigration_by_the_Numbers.mov - Google Video

cobraboy said:

Yes.

[quote-KeithF]
Immigration_by_the_Numbers.mov - Google Video

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Nice tie..

iF YOU WATCH THAT VIDEO CLIP YOU WILL NOTICE THAT THE us POPULATION, soory for the caps, reached the 300 million mark even BEFORE his dire predictions...This is a reality, and in his opening statements he touched on Marx' Law of the Reserve Army (the unemployed)..the size of this number drives wages up and down.
Where are wages high? Up in the oil sands of Canada..no qualified workers available
Where are wages low? In the farmlands of Arizona and California! Tons of Mexican stoop labor on hand, in spite of Chavez' great efforts...

If 1/8th of the Dominican population is Haitian....you do the math....

Some are predicting that Europe will be Muslim in 25-30 years...

HB

Hillbilly said:

It, the Constitution, clearly states that children born to illegal or transient people or people working at a foreign embassy are not Dominican citizens.

HB

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It clearly states that? I haven't seen the exact wording but I do remember that that interpretation is only about a year old. Subero Isa and the other 15 supreme court justices ruled on it last year. Many opposed to their ruling stated that it was purely political because the constitution itself simply states that people born in the DR have Dominican citizenship. There are supposedly no asterisks for illegals or transients etc.

Does anybody have the original text?

Scandall

Hillbilly said:

iF YOU WATCH THAT VIDEO CLIP YOU WILL NOTICE THAT THE us POPULATION, soory for the caps, reached the 300 million mark even BEFORE his dire predictions...This is a reality, and in his opening statements he touched on Marx' Law of the Reserve Army (the unemployed)..the size of this number drives wages up and down.
Where are wages high? Up in the oil sands of Canada..no qualified workers available
Where are wages low? In the farmlands of Arizona and California! Tons of Mexican stoop labor on hand, in spite of Chavez' great efforts...

If 1/8th of the Dominican population is Haitian....you do the math....

Some are predicting that Europe will be Muslim in 25-30 years...

HB

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I would be interested in seeing similar DR stats. Currently, non-immigrant Americans are barely-if at all-replacing themselves: 2.1 kids per couple. I understand Europe has had lower numbers for years.

The DR loses folks all the time as they emigrate elsewhere. There are over 25,000 to the US annually alone. I speculate the replacement rate of non-immigrant Dominicans exceeds the 2.1 as in the US/Europe (heck, my fiance's family alone has 13 children). But what about the Haitians? I wonder if the increase in the Haitian immigrant population and their progeny exceeds the non-immigrant DR population + their replacements-emigration.

Anybody know? Is there a legit demographic study anywhere?

Scandall said:

It clearly states that? I haven't seen the exact wording but I do remember that that interpretation is only about a year old. Subero Isa and the other 15 supreme court justices ruled on it last year. Many opposed to their ruling stated that it was purely political because the constitution itself simply states that people born in the DR have Dominican citizenship. There are supposedly no asterisks for illegals or transients etc.

Does anybody have the original text?

Scandall

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Randy,

Regarding nationality, Article 11 of the Constitution (Constituci?n de la Rep?blica Dominicana) stipulates the following: "todas las personas que nacieren en el territorio de la Rep?blica Dominicana con excepci?n de los hijos leg?timos de los extranjeros residentes en el pa?s en representaci?n diplom?tica o los que est?n de tr?nsito en ?l".

(my own literal translation): "all persons born in the territory of the Dominican Republic with the exception of legitimate sons of diplomatic representatives or those in transit through the DR."

Most Haitians in the DR are not "in transit", they are "contract workers"...

Scandall said:

Does anybody have the original text?

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Scandall, if you go to your print version of the Constitution, it is Titulo III, Seccion 1 Art. 11 subsection 1 (page 15 in the version I have).

Mirador said:

Randy,

Regarding nationality, Article 11 of the Constitution (Constituci?n de la Rep?blica Dominicana) stipulates the following: "todas las personas que nacieren en el territorio de la Rep?blica Dominicana con excepci?n de los hijos leg?timos de los extranjeros residentes en el pa?s en representaci?n diplom?tica o los que est?n de tr?nsito en ?l".

(my own literal translation): "all persons born in the territory of the Dominican Republic with the exception of legitimate sons of diplomatic representatives or those in transit through the DR."

Most Haitians in the DR are not "in transit", they are "contract workers"...

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Most Haitians although not in " transit " are in the DR illegally (without visa's) and thus do not fit the requirement to be entitled to citizenship. Most contract workers are men, and other than in the movies, men do not have children One can not blame the Haitians from trying to improve their lot in life, but why blame the DR for trying to control citizenship.

Scandall,
Perhaps the links in Rick's post in another thread can help you (includes text of both Haitian and DR Constitutions).

http://www.dr1.com/forums/458707-post4.html



Chris,
Regarding your original post, if I'm not mistaken there are provisions associated with the free trade agreement that include such things as member countries enforcing certain protections (copyrights and trademarks for example) and other provisions regarding social critera that must be adhered to (anti-sweatshop, etc). If DR signed the treaty, they need to live up to the terms of it. But, I still have a problem with this trip as I don't think that the Congressmen are the correct people to be making an evaluation. I know I've travelled to different countries to look at manufacturing facilities and there's only so much you can really see in a 1 or 2 week trip - and you tend to see what your hosts want you to see as opposed to the reality of a situation.
Someone I knew was responsible for giving people tours of his manufacturing company and said 'we had a great dog and pony show. it's like a movie set, with all the skyscrapers and clean city streets, but if you walk through the right door, you realize it's all a facade'. The congressmen will see the worst, I suspect, without taking the time to fully understand why such conditions exist. I fear blame and negativity without contributions toward a solution.

Chris said:

"... said Meek, whose district is home to many Haitians. "Many of my constituents tell me about concerns about the conditions of their families" in the Dominican Republic."

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Perhaps Congressman Meek should tell his constituents to suggest their families return to their homeland for better treatment? :surprised

What is with people thinking they can immigrate to another country and be welcomed with open arms? Seems that when you choose to cross borders, you have to accept the value the new society gives you - if it's not better than it was at home, go home. If it IS better, stop bitching - you lucked out.

With that said, I do believe in the intrinsic value of all humans and think those with the means should help those without - and certainly shouldn't do anything to make their plight worse. But it's not something that should be 'demanded' when you've voluntarily chosen to be on foreign soil.

Mirador: El anterior ministro del exterior???PRD?? No me acuerdo ahora....he was the one that kept saying that even as contract laborers, Haitians were here in transit...apparently there is some ample interpretation going on here. All that stuff about "jus sanguinea" and "jus terra" ...
I think that most Dominicans do not want Haitians to be declared Dominican citizens just by birth alone. and many "thinking" Dominicans are looking at the birth rates in the major hospitals on the border and in the main cities....In some places as many as half of all births are for Haitian women that cross the border to give birth...basically trying to survive the birth process, I would imagine!!

Lots of food for thought...

HB

It would seem that as a non-Dominican you would come to this country as a tourist (tourist card), student (student visa), worker (worker visa), temporary resident (Provisional Residency card), naturalization (citizenship) or illegally. My understanding of the law as it applies to this country is that you are in fact ?in transit? until such a time that you have received your Provisional Residency Card or your naturalization through citizenship. All visas be it student, tourist or work are of a temporary nature and therefore places you in a ?in transit? status until such a time as you apply for residency and or citizenship. Even then you are in a ?in transit? status until such a time as you have acquired approval of your application.

Though the importation of Haitian workers for cutting the sugar cane has been going on for decades it was in 1952, with the advent of the State Sugar Council (Consejo Estatal del Az?car, or CEA), that Haiti and the Dominican Republic entered into a series of bilateral agreements to ensure the continued supply of seasonal cane cutters from Haiti to the Dominican sugar cane fields. The fact that those that are allowed entry into the DR for those purposes without legal status with a work permit only helps insure that those workers are continuously ?illegal? and therefore in an ?in transit? status.

Please let it be noted that I do not agree with the situation as it presently stands but I can understand how the authorities can place the ?in transit? status to people and therefore help ?uphold? their sovereignty as it applies to their constitution.

I should wish to point out that the hard line that the Haitian constitution takes on ?nationality? doesn?t help the situation any in the respect as to the situation that these Haitians find themselves placed in. It is also the series of bilateral agreements that the Haitian authorities entered into that have further compounded the problem. I only wish to point out that this problem is not only of Dominican making.

The US working under the jus soli concept, regardless as to the disposition of your parents, is something that they have easily been able to afford and support. It is the tremendous amount of illegal immigrants that is presenting such a strain on the US along with the advancement of the number of legal immigrants that are now allowed as indicated by that link supplied by Cobrabay.

And to anyone that thinks that all countries should help out in bettering the situation?????? I keep thinking about all those marbles in the ?big? jar!!!! It does make me think that those countries should be helped within. Now if we could teach them to help themselves as we try to help.

Rick

Hillbilly said:

Mirador: El anterior ministro del exterior???PRD?? No me acuerdo ahora....he was the one that kept saying that even as contract laborers, Haitians were here in transit...apparently there is some ample interpretation going on here. All that stuff about "jus sanguinea" and "jus terra" ...
I think that most Dominicans do not want Haitians to be declared Dominican citizens just by birth alone. and many "thinking" Dominicans are looking at the birth rates in the major hospitals on the border and in the main cities....In some places as many as half of all births are for Haitian women that cross the border to give birth...basically trying to survive the birth process, I would imagine!!

Lots of food for thought...

HB

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Everybody and their grandmother opines in this country, yet there's been more than ample opportunity to clarify this issue in the Constitution, yet no government has. Why? because politicians want to have it both ways, want their cake and eat it too... Too late now, with over 1 million Haitians now living permanentely in the DR. In my legal terminology book (in the process of being published ;-), a contract worker in the DR is a legal resident, albeit temporary, and if they have offsprings during their contract time in the DR, then those offsprings cannot be considered "in transit". What about the offsprings of those offsprings, and so forth... I'm aware of third and fourth generation families of Haitian descent who are so Dominicanized that they don't speak Creole anymore and have never visited Haiti...

Talking about deportations you have this case now occurring in the US.

The massive round-ups of Haitians by the authorities seem to be a regular occurrence. The massive round-ups of Dominicans when there was a crime committed in an area still happens but not to the extreme that it once did. This, I believe, is due to the many changes that have been made to the penal code. Needless to say that regardless of what laws are on the books or what treaties that have been signed by the government the indiscriminate abuse by members of the departments of immigration, police and military will continue till such a time as the Dominican people in mass say ?no more?!

LF having been raised in the US is, I believe, of a similar mind as a lot of Dominicans of caring mind and board members that feel disgust and shame in the way that some people are treated here and around the world. The fact that they hold these feelings is no indication each, on his own, can change that which happens here. This is even true for the president of this country. There is only so much one person can do to try to bring about change even if that person is the president. The unfortunate point of this catastrophe is that people like LF will take the blame and it will be reported by ONG?s and the like that he failed to do right for the poor and downtrodden Haitian in the Dominican Republic which will become part of history and his legacy.

As the Dominican constitution clearly points out the human rights of its citizens and all people here as well as in the agreement signed by the DR concerning the ?Universal Declaration of Human Rights? then any infringement on those rights rests with those that are empowered to enforce those rights. Therein lies the problem faced by those that take offense of the mistreatment of humans here. The power that those entities hold within this country is the reason change does or does not happen here. It seems very apparent that a lot of these problems are due to the CEA and to people like Balaguer in his decree 233.

Though there are those that seem to take ample opportunity to place all the blame on which ever political party happens to be in power at the time I think it is important to point out a few relevant facts in this ensuing case of human deprivation and cruelty.

There seems to be a stalling of a joint commission as indicated here.

It seems they are catching some before they become illegal.

The most relevant possibility in this matter is the reformation of the Dominican constitution that is presently ongoing. I remember in the speech that LF gave back in October whereas he asked if Article 11 needed changing. The questionnaire that is available on their web page also delves into this issue. According to this article they are receiving 1,500 hits a day and I guess only time will tell if positive changes come about with this. What I can assure you of is that if Dominicans don?t organize and come together on this subject and bring about change that we will be discussing this same issue 4 years from now on DR1 as well as outsiders coming to check out that which is already known.

Rick

If All The Illegal Hatians Are Forced To Leave...........

There will be virtually no propstitutes left in Sosua,Puerto Plata,or Boca Chica!!
Now THAT would be a real shame. It would also raise the Price Of Tail" in all of the DR!
Who would cut the "Cane" if they go??
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The subject is certainly getting some current coverage and not just in US. This was on BBC Caribbean today
BBCCaribbean.com | The plight of the cane-cutters

Homework

Maybe these congressmen should do their homework.

If we look at history, Haitians cane cutters were actually first brought to the DR by US armed forces during the occupation of 1916.

Prior to this occupation Dominican plantation owners contracted "cocolo" workers from st. Kitts & Nevis, Antigua among other islands.

The occupation itself, inpart, was to "protect" American investments in the sugar industry, which practically dominated the local market by the early 1900's, and used the excuse that they needed to protect the DR from German intrusion during WW II.

Bringing in workers from the "enemy" nation of Haiti would have been unheard of back then, but since the US was already occuping Haiti it was a natural for them to bring Haitians to this side as well.