Hispanic or Latino? What are they?

BIZC8

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Dec 21, 2006
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En los Estados Unidos Existen dos comunidades hispanas: una de ?latinos americanos? y otra de ?Hispanic American?.

La de los ?latinos americanos?, que son la mayor?a, est? formada por inmigrantes. La de los Hispanic American est? compuesta, mayormente, por los hijos de hispanos nacidos o criados en los Estados Unidos.

Mientras la primera habla espa?ol y machaca el ingl?s, la segunda habla ingl?s y machaca el espa?ol.

La primera se siente la latina y luego americana. La segunda, se siente americana y luego (a veces, nunca) latina.

La primera se siente orgullosa de comunicarse en la lengua de Cervantes y usa el ingl?s como instrumento de trabajo. La segunda se siente inc?moda hablando otra lengua que no sea el ingl?s y desde?a a los que no saben hablarlo. Para ella, el espa?ol es el idioma ind?gena que en estas tierras tiene que ser superado.

A los Hispanic American no les gusta que un ?paisa? le hable espa?ol ante sus amigos americanos, pero s? se siente m?s que ?paisa?, cuando para el trabajo que aplica es de preferencia ser latino.

El Hispanic American es el menos hispano de los hispanos, pero es el que los representa, y para los gringos es un hispano ?brillante?.

Los latinos americanos son orgullosos de su origen, los Hispanic American lo son solo cuando les conviene.

Los Hispanic American no tienen problemas de documentaci?n, son ciudadanos. Los ?Latinos Americanos? son naturalizados, residentes o pr?fugos de ?la migra?.

Los Hispanic American son miembros de todos los ?Boards? que representan a los latinos, o son la representaci?n latina de los ?Boards?. Los ?Latinos Americanos?, no lo saben ni tienen idea de cu?nto se benefician los Hispanics en nombre de ellos.

Cuando los latinos est?n en problemas como consecuencia de los ataques de los grupos xenof?bicos americanos, luchan para protegerse colectivamente, salen a las calles y colectan dinero entre ellos mismos para sus causas. Los Hispanics se mantienen ajenos a esto (porque a ellos no los sigue la migra) y celebran sus ?banquets?, ?Launchs?, ?Awards? y ?Honoris? a los empresarios americanos por su ?contribuci?n con la comunidad latina?, aunque los latinos no se enteran ni de los Awards ni de las ayudas.

Eso explica el porque en muchos eventos celebrados para recordar a Cesar Ch?vez que organizan los Hispanics, el problema latino es ajeno. El a?o pasado, en el momento en que doce millones de inmigrantes indocumentados estaban siendo amenazados por una ley, la HR4437, que los juzgar?a como criminales, en esos eventos no se hizo la m?s m?nima referencia a la situaci?n.

Al tiempo que se celebraban los banquetes en honor a los ?Hispanos? sin la participaci?n de estos, en todo el pa?s millones de latinos se lanzaban a las calles a reclamar el respeto a su derecho como seres humanos, sin que ning?n Hispanic asomara la cabeza.

Pero no todos en sus grupos son iguales. Hay Hispanics que se vuelven latinos y Latinos que se vuelven Hispanics.

Cesar Ch?vez era un Hispanic que pensaba como latino. Por eso, pudo utilizar su capacidad de involucrarse en las m?s importantes instancias para defender a los latinos. Ahora es un ?dolo de los Hispanic, quienes lo utilizan jugosamente haciendo temblar los huesos del difunto.

La diferencia entre estos mundos compartidos en uno (porque para las autoridades del censo todos son hispanos), se muestra ahora con el caso del fiscal Alberto Gonz?les.

Las asociaciones de C?maras de Comercio Hispanas de Estados Unidos, de la cual no conocen nada ni la Taquer?a Panchito, la Pupuser?a San Antonio, la bodeguita de Julia ni el colmado La Buena Suerte, lanza un documento en representaci?n de todos los comerciantes latinos para defender a Gonz?les. No importa que este haya dejado que cuatro hispanos hayan sido ejecutados en Texas pese a las dudas de su culpabilidad, sin ni siquiera transmitir los pedidos de clemencia sometidos al entonces gobernador George W. Bush; ni que sea ?l el jefe de la ?justicia? de una administraci?n que est? persiguiendo a los inmigrantes como jud?os en la ?poca de la Alemania Nazi.

Dice la Asociaci?n de C?maras de Comercio Hispanas, que Gonz?les ?es un orgullo de la comunidad hispana en los Estados Unidos? porque ha llegado a la posici?n mas alta que un ?hispano? haya llegado jam?s?.

Entonces Hitler deb?a ser el m?ximo orgullo de Austria por haber llegado a la posici?n a la que ning?n austriaco haya llegado jam?s.

Dice tambi?n que ?Gonz?les es un modelo para toda la comunidad hispana y su ?xito prueba a nuestros hijos que ellos tambi?n pueden realizar sus sue?os".

Ser?a interesante preguntarle a los ni?os inmigrantes cuyos padres fueron deportados, si Gonz?les es un ejemplo para ellos.

Alberto Gonz?les no es un orgullo hispano, es una verg?enza Hispana. Un funcionario de un oscuro antecedente en el que no puede contar el haber ayudado a ning?n latino jam?s.

La administraci?n Bush trata de hacer al ?hispanic Gonz?les?, el ?Latino Gonz?les?. Argumento que sirve para defender al ejecutante de su ?Watergate?, al encargado del trabajo sucio de la administraci?n. Porque para eso los Hispanics son latinos, y Gonz?les probablemente lo sea ahora mas que nunca.

Hay dos comunidades hispanas, una pobre y trabajadora, y una rica de cuello blanco que quiere ser gringa y no latina, y no es ni una ni la otra pero la utiliza las dos.


I'm definitely a "Latino". I was born in DR, grew up in the US most of my natural life (30 out of my 38 years) and definitely identify with the description above. I'd like to say that I have made it a top priority to make sure my children are deeply connected to their roots, their Dominican, Puerto Rican as well as their Colombian roots (two different marriages). For one, although I'm completely fluent in English, they must address me in Spanish, they have managed to learn to read and write it as well. I have purposely made this top priority in their lives and although they still sometimes don't appreciate it, they'll come around one day and they'll be grateful I did the things I did.

As Hispanic Americans, they do see Spanish as a "tool" to give them an edge over non-bilingual Americans whereas I see it as my primary means of communication and use English as a tool to ensure a means of subsistence and survival.

I must admit though, that I sometimes feel as though I don't exactly fit into the 'typical' Dominican or American. I feel like I'm sort of caught between the two. Funny how at such an early age (eight years old) one already has such a well-founded sense of identity and after thirty years of "assimilation" I still feel like I'm part of a community within a community.

Which one do you fit into?
 

M.A.R.

Silver
Feb 18, 2006
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I didn't know there was a difference, I thought it both meant the same.

joke: Un amigo le dice al otro, oiga compadre, "yo no hablo ingle y se eta olvidando el espanol".

Como va a ser le responde el amigo- "Pero ute se eta quedando mudo".
 

SuperConejo

New member
Mar 30, 2007
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I dont like either honestly. I find it offensive to get called Hispanic/Latino or Spanish. Specially since i have plenty of african blood. LOL. I think its offensive because it's almost as if Quisqueya fought for nothing, its almost as if Luperon fought for nothing. We kicked out the spanish for good, why do we have to get called their names, hispanic,latino,spanish. I understand if a fellow from argentina wants to be called hispanic, by all means thats fine. I just feel that gettin called any of those terms puts up only the spanish blood/heritage/custom and drowns everything else. The united states has alot of messed up labels. Also why dont other language groups get categorized, i dont see anyone calling Jamaicans, Australians and Afroamericans "English"
When people ask me if i'm hispanic/latino/spanish i say no, i'm Dominican, or no I'm Quisqueyano(My favorite)
 

Don Juan

Living Brain Donor
Dec 5, 2003
856
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I prefer Latin-American.

I was born in "the Dominican", as most "Americans" like to call the DR.
However, being from DR does not allow me and the rest of my paisanos, the privilege of exclusivity of origin, meaning that regardless of someones nationality, if you happen to speak Spanish, you're not a Dominican, you're "Spanish".

I sometimes ask if any English-speaking person, regardless of race, by virtue of speaking only English, should be labeled "English"? The usual response is "no, I'm American, Canadian, Jamaican, Australian, etc."

When I infer then that they qualify as being " Anglos", the label makes them angry. BTW, how many Anglos are there in DR?

I don't feel bad about being categorized a "Latin", Why should the Anglos feel uncomfortable being referred to as "Anglos", Eh?:tired:
 

Kyle

Silver
Jun 2, 2006
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or the WASP category white, anglo-saxon protestants. the same applies for asians and people of african origin, i.e american blacks, africans and some people from the carribean.

by the way, i am african-american so i understand...
 
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Chip00

Guest
The original opinion is replete with generalizations of a complex topic and the authors political stance is about as thinly veiled as Chavez's lunacy.

I have known many people that could equally be classified in both categories at the same time, depending on the topic. The problem with the opinion is the the author uses the "strong arm" tatic of trying to shame his "Hispanics" (by his categorization) into realization that they are Latinos too. While this may work for the uneducated many will see the attempt for what is - to pilfer an argument about as weak as democracy in Venezuela by using appeal to "nationalism" sentiments and strong political agenda. Basically, in a nutshell the author wants to corral the Latino reader into like minded group of sheep with their shepherd being Chavez and the current US administration being the big bad wolf.

What this guy really has no clue about is what is going on in mind of many Latinos among other things. Second generation Latinos who were brought up speaking English are obviously going to be more "assimilated" that the first generation Latinos who for the most part struggle with the language and culture differnces. It is because of this "struggle" back in their native land that the first generation Latinos go to the US in the first place. They don't leave their native Latin American countries on a whim, they leave because of despots(ala Chavez and Castro), corruption, failed economies etc. and they hope to have a piece of the "American Dream" where they can come and think FREELY (without worrying if they will get a bullet in the back of their head for thinking differently that the current administration) and find work and raise their children in a society that values hard work and freedom of expression.

With such a desperation to leave behind the problems back home in their native countries many of the first generation Latinos understandibly overcompensate the desire to "leave behind" all the bad and therefore fail to teach their children fully the importance of maintaining a connection with their native land via language and cultural practices. This is unfortunate but understandible response.

The problem as I see it is not so much the division of the first and second generation Latinos as to how to adequately assimilate the Latinos that are going to the US. Previously, historically immigrants coming to the US were required to assimiltate completely, ie learn the language and culture and with the basic understanding that their children would not learn the language of the "motherland"(or the fatherland ala Chavez) Now however, Spanish is being taught in schools and there are many government sponsored programs in many areas throughout the country. What we are seeing now are the growing pains of allowing Spanish to be accepted almost as a second language. Honestly, there wasn't much of a choice anyway, what with so many millions in close proximity to the US's shores. However, since 911 the issue of the Spanish "subculture" and for that matter illegal immigration have taken a forefront on the political landscape. Americans for the most part respect or at the very least are somewhat fearful of the consequences of breaking the law. Mix that in with the unrational fear that they may one day be invaded by Muslim extremists from south of the border and voila - you have a big mess that isn't going to be solved anytime soon.

One should be aware that many Americans and more or less assimilated Latinos are compassionate when it comes to the illegal immigrants situations. Using the Mexicans as an example, many Americans see them for what they are, hard working family types and for that reason the many Americans have not pushed the issue of reconciling the obvious conundrum - allowing such a disregard for the laws of the US with regard to immigration when the fact is that many Americans are more or less law abiding. This has been perpetuated for the most part for two main reason - one, many Americans in the heartland where the Mexicans go to work in the fields are compassionate people and two, honestly the Mexicans for the most part have give no one cause to bother them. This is mirrored in the Urban areas as will with other Latinos such as Venezuelans, Colombians and Dominicans

The problem now, though is that Americans no longer feel comfortable with this obvious disregard for law fueled by fears of another 911. Americans that before "looked the way" with regard to illegal immigration are having to choose between taking a stance based on the following laws that supposedly show no favorites and the natural compassion that they have for such a hard working, decent people.

I myself feel torn between the two stances and would like to think that a solution could be found that allows the illegal immigrants to become citizens at some point but doing it in a manner that somehow appeases the American public that her laws haven't been flaunted and trampled.

The only problem with this solution is that it is only a temporary fix. Why? Well as long as we have idiots like Chavez, turmoil in Colombia, hunger in Mexico, corruption and discontent in the DR the US will be the number one destination for the residents of these countries. The US simply does not have the resources to adequately prevent illegal immigration.

What then is the solution? Well, I for one have no problem at all paying my US taxes even though I live abroad and stopping and waiting at traffic lights at two in the morning iwhen I'm in the States and also allowing the majority of the illegals continue to live their little bit of the American dream unmolested.
 

engels64

New member
Feb 27, 2007
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I think!

I think this is a touchy topic because you're making generalizations about Latin Americans or Hispanics and throwing them into either one or the other.

I was born in the Dominican Republic and came to the US when I was 14 y/o for high school. Since then, I have graduated college and have assimilated alot from this culture. However, I have never tried to identify myself as an American or even tried to be one. I speak both English and Spanish fluently and refuse to put label to my identity. I guess I fall somewhere in between.

I hate to be called "Spanish", "Latino", or "Hispanic" . I am Dominican, I speak spanish, I am from a Latin American Country and I am of Hispanic descent!
 

pyratt

Bronze
Jan 14, 2007
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I don't get it...born in the DR, you're Dominican, born in Canada, Canadian etc. The hyphenated specialists in America (where I'm from), love to "identify" everybody and I find it disgusting....born in America, you're American...personally, my friends who speak Spanish call me "Gringo", and at times I even introduce myself as "El Gringo" and do so with a smile....I've other friends who call me "Cracker"....which is true as my white legs make saltines look like wheat toast.......people are people....there are two types....Good and Bad..........hablamos mis amigos, check you later, good day.
 

M.A.R.

Silver
Feb 18, 2006
3,210
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I think we all identify ourselves with a certain ethnicity, the Irish in my neighborhood are proud of their heritage and so are the italians and Filipinos but well know that we are all Americans and its great when we can share a common interest and not worry about eachother personal background.
 

M.A.R.

Silver
Feb 18, 2006
3,210
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que computadora tan bruta!!! doble post.

Talk to it. hehehehe
 
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A.Hidalgo

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Apr 28, 2006
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You got the wrong Chavez!!!!

For Chipp00

In your thread (NALs like) you keep bringing up Hugo Chavez, but the OP was referring to CESAR CHAVEZ, the great Mexican American civil rights leader who co founded the National Farmers Workers Association which later became the United Farm Workers. Because of his leadership farmers lives improved.

I think you need to do some revision to your statements.

César Chávez - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

A.Hidalgo

Silver
Apr 28, 2006
3,268
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Forum working funny tonight. Its double post's night, and its past April 1.
Moderator you can eliminate my #12.
 
C

Chip00

Guest
For Chipp00

In your thread (NALs like) you keep bringing up Hugo Chavez, but the OP was referring to CESAR CHAVEZ, the great Mexican American civil rights leader who co founded the National Farmers Workers Association which later became the United Farm Workers. Because of his leadership farmers lives improved.

I think you need to do some revision to your statements.

César Chávez - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes I see that - I appreciate it. Unfortuantely I can't revise my post.

Nonetheless, it is still apparent that this guy is trying to lead the "hispanics" away from the current US administration. IMO, it is one thing to discuss the differences between "Latinos" and "Hispanics" as he call them and the perceived classification of the two, which I still dispute BTW, and then to go to the level of attacking the current US administration like it has anyhting to do WHATSOEVER with the issue.

Bush maybe is not the best president we have ever had and had made mistakes but at least he is HONEST and has tried to integrate Hispanics/Latinos/Blacks into his administration. Beside all of that he speaks Spanish(what other President could say that?) and his brothers wife is married to a Mexican. It just boils my blood that this a$$hole who authored the piece in the original thread would try to use some valid issues between first and second generation Latinos to turn it into an anti Bush campaign.

Therefore, much of my response is still valid - it discusses the real issues in my opinion between the first and second generation threads.
 

A.Hidalgo

Silver
Apr 28, 2006
3,268
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Yes I see that - I appreciate it. Unfortuantely I can't revise my post.

Nonetheless, it is still apparent that this guy is trying to lead the "hispanics" away from the current US administration. IMO, it is one thing to discuss the differences between "Latinos" and "Hispanics" as he call them and the perceived classification of the two, which I still dispute BTW, and then to go to the level of attacking the current US administration like it has anyhting to do WHATSOEVER with the issue.

Bush maybe is not the best president we have ever had and had made mistakes but at least he is HONEST and has tried to integrate Hispanics/Latinos/Blacks into his administration. Beside all of that he speaks Spanish(what other President could say that?) and his brothers wife is married to a Mexican. It just boils my blood that this a$$hole who authored the piece in the original thread would try to use some valid issues between first and second generation Latinos to turn it into an anti Bush campaign.

Therefore, much of my response is still valid - it discusses the real issues in my opinion between the first and second generation threads.



It seems to me that the guy's real beef is with Alberto Gonzales. That seems to be his biggest complaint because of Gonzales's Hispanic heritage and thus the member considers him a disgrace to la raza. By and large Hispanic's have progressed and done well in the US although subtle and sometimes overt racism is still around. I don't agree with the distinction he makes between Hispanic and Latino but he sounds to me to be very proud of his Hispanic (Dominican) background.

It would not surprise me if this thread gets shut down...its bordering on the hot racial topic.:paranoid:
 
C

Chip00

Guest
It seems to me that the guy's real beef is with Alberto Gonzales. That seems to be his biggest complaint because of Gonzales's Hispanic heritage and thus the member considers him a disgrace to la raza. By and large Hispanic's have progressed and done well in the US although subtle and sometimes overt racism is still around. I don't agree with the distinction he makes between Hispanic and Latino but he sounds to me to be very proud of his Hispanic (Dominican) background.

It would not surprise me if this thread gets shut down...its bordering on the hot racial topic.:paranoid:

Primo - no te apure - we are not talking about race at all and besides I have no problems with other "races" - in fact that is why I married my wife. Heck, I even think Dominicans(the women of course) are better looking than their gringa counterpart!

Anyway, the original commentary shouldn't be politicizing the issue between the first and second generation Latinos in my country - that is the main point I want to make.
 

incredible

Member
Jul 9, 2006
106
0
16
The original opinion is replete with generalizations of a complex topic and the authors political stance is about as thinly veiled as Chavez's lunacy.

I have known many people that could equally be classified in both categories at the same time, depending on the topic. The problem with the opinion is the the author uses the "strong arm" tatic of trying to shame his "Hispanics" (by his categorization) into realization that they are Latinos too. While this may work for the uneducated many will see the attempt for what is - to pilfer an argument about as weak as democracy in Venezuela by using appeal to "nationalism" sentiments and strong political agenda. Basically, in a nutshell the author wants to corral the Latino reader into like minded group of sheep with their shepherd being Chavez and the current US administration being the big bad wolf.

What this guy really has no clue about is what is going on in mind of many Latinos among other things. Second generation Latinos who were brought up speaking English are obviously going to be more "assimilated" that the first generation Latinos who for the most part struggle with the language and culture differnces. It is because of this "struggle" back in their native land that the first generation Latinos go to the US in the first place. They don't leave their native Latin American countries on a whim, they leave because of despots(ala Chavez and Castro), corruption, failed economies etc. and they hope to have a piece of the "American Dream" where they can come and think FREELY (without worrying if they will get a bullet in the back of their head for thinking differently that the current administration) and find work and raise their children in a society that values hard work and freedom of expression.

With such a desperation to leave behind the problems back home in their native countries many of the first generation Latinos understandibly overcompensate the desire to "leave behind" all the bad and therefore fail to teach their children fully the importance of maintaining a connection with their native land via language and cultural practices. This is unfortunate but understandible response.

The problem as I see it is not so much the division of the first and second generation Latinos as to how to adequately assimilate the Latinos that are going to the US. Previously, historically immigrants coming to the US were required to assimiltate completely, ie learn the language and culture and with the basic understanding that their children would not learn the language of the "motherland"(or the fatherland ala Chavez) Now however, Spanish is being taught in schools and there are many government sponsored programs in many areas throughout the country. What we are seeing now are the growing pains of allowing Spanish to be accepted almost as a second language. Honestly, there wasn't much of a choice anyway, what with so many millions in close proximity to the US's shores. However, since 911 the issue of the Spanish "subculture" and for that matter illegal immigration have taken a forefront on the political landscape. Americans for the most part respect or at the very least are somewhat fearful of the consequences of breaking the law. Mix that in with the unrational fear that they may one day be invaded by Muslim extremists from south of the border and voila - you have a big mess that isn't going to be solved anytime soon.

One should be aware that many Americans and more or less assimilated Latinos are compassionate when it comes to the illegal immigrants situations. Using the Mexicans as an example, many Americans see them for what they are, hard working family types and for that reason the many Americans have not pushed the issue of reconciling the obvious conundrum - allowing such a disregard for the laws of the US with regard to immigration when the fact is that many Americans are more or less law abiding. This has been perpetuated for the most part for two main reason - one, many Americans in the heartland where the Mexicans go to work in the fields are compassionate people and two, honestly the Mexicans for the most part have give no one cause to bother them. This is mirrored in the Urban areas as will with other Latinos such as Venezuelans, Colombians and Dominicans

The problem now, though is that Americans no longer feel comfortable with this obvious disregard for law fueled by fears of another 911. Americans that before "looked the way" with regard to illegal immigration are having to choose between taking a stance based on the following laws that supposedly show no favorites and the natural compassion that they have for such a hard working, decent people.

I myself feel torn between the two stances and would like to think that a solution could be found that allows the illegal immigrants to become citizens at some point but doing it in a manner that somehow appeases the American public that her laws haven't been flaunted and trampled.

The only problem with this solution is that it is only a temporary fix. Why? Well as long as we have idiots like Chavez, turmoil in Colombia, hunger in Mexico, corruption and discontent in the DR the US will be the number one destination for the residents of these countries. The US simply does not have the resources to adequately prevent illegal immigration.

What then is the solution? Well, I for one have no problem at all paying my US taxes even though I live abroad and stopping and waiting at traffic lights at two in the morning iwhen I'm in the States and also allowing the majority of the illegals continue to live their little bit of the American dream unmolested.

Very well articulated and I agree with most of which you wrote here!
 

slrguy

New member
Oct 17, 2006
79
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Just a point of clarification- Jeb Bush, former two-term governor of Florida, is married to Columba, a native of Mexico.

I'm facinated that anyone is offended by the latino/hispanic label. It's only a generalzation. Like folks from south america call us americans or gringos, rather than North Carolinian, New Yorker, etc. It denotes a person whose heritage is spanish-speaking, whose culture is in large degree carried over from Spain, and mostly catholic faiths. What's the problem???? Maybe I should begin being offended by being called american, since I am FAR different, having grown up in the south, from a person from New Hampshire, for example...how dare you lump me in with those yankees! ;)
 
C

Chip00

Guest
Just a point of clarification- Jeb Bush, former two-term governor of Florida, is married to Columba, a native of Mexico.

I'm facinated that anyone is offended by the latino/hispanic label. It's only a generalzation. Like folks from south america call us americans or gringos, rather than North Carolinian, New Yorker, etc. It denotes a person whose heritage is spanish-speaking, whose culture is in large degree carried over from Spain, and mostly catholic faiths. What's the problem???? Maybe I should begin being offended by being called american, since I am FAR different, having grown up in the south, from a person from New Hampshire, for example...how dare you lump me in with those yankees! ;)

The only real issue I had with the original post in Spanish was the politicazation of the matter by turning an already weak argument with few valid points into an almost "moral obligation" of Hispanics to dump the Republican party in favor of the Democratic party - all this by appealing to the pride of the Hispanics/Latinos and a heavy dose of guilt to get the job done. At less of an issue to me is this arbitrary classification of Hispanics and Latinos. I'm sure that many Hispanics/Latinos would be offended at such generalizations of who they are and how they think. They are as diverse a people as can be found anywhere.
 

pkaide1

Bronze
Aug 10, 2005
539
40
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Just a point of clarification- Jeb Bush, former two-term governor of Florida, is married to Columba, a native of Mexico.

I'm facinated that anyone is offended by the latino/hispanic label. It's only a generalzation. Like folks from south america call us americans or gringos, rather than North Carolinian, New Yorker, etc. It denotes a person whose heritage is spanish-speaking, whose culture is in large degree carried over from Spain, and mostly catholic faiths. What's the problem???? Maybe I should begin being offended by being called american, since I am FAR different, having grown up in the south, from a person from New Hampshire, for example...how dare you lump me in with those yankees! ;)

And what make you think that American are only those born in the US. Anybody born in the America continent is an American.
The real problem is that we in the US are sick, when it comes to generalizing people or dividing them by ethnicity. Sometimes, I wonder who the heck is a real US citizen.