Are Dominicans better off?

Guatiao

El Leon de los Cacicazgos
Mar 27, 2004
474
8
0
38
After reading various times NALs and other posters suggest Dominicans are better off today than those of yesteryears; I wonder, is this a true statement? If we compare/contrast the average Dominican income and include inflation, costs of medical insurance, educational costs, rent, and other factors vs. those same factors of 1 to 2 generations ago, would the statement hold true?

Any data to back up the statement?
 

Criss Colon

Platinum
Jan 2, 2002
21,843
191
0
38
yahoomail.com
"NALS" Doesn't Actually Live In The DR,Soooo........

His observations made from Conn. are not really valid!
The only person on DR1 with a REAL handle on answering your question,is "HILLBILLY"! He hasl lived here for 40 years! "OTHERS" will just give their opinions,AND you know what they say about "OPINIONS"!!!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,485
3,188
113
After reading various times NALs and other posters suggest Dominicans are better off today than those of yesteryears; I wonder, is this a true statement? If we compare/contrast the average Dominican income and include inflation, costs of medical insurance, educational costs, rent, and other factors vs. those same factors of 1 to 2 generations ago, would the statement hold true?

Any data to back up the statement?
There are some data which shows towards an improvement in overall living conditions and every rational Dominican (if he/she is 30 or younger, you might want to use the opinions of their parents - if possible) will agree that the Dominican Republic is much better off today.

There are the obvious differences such as a higher purchasing power and this is proven by the presence of a large middle class and higher consumption rates vs. what they were say in the 1960s. There are also social indicators which point towards an improvement.

For example, life expectancy in 1960 was 53 years, but in 2004 it was 68 and today it's 70. Infant mortality rate in 1960 was 149 per 1,000 live births, in 2004 it was 32 per 1,000 live births. Literary rates, access to potable water rates, access to electricty rates, daily calories and protein consumption, etc have all consistently risen from 1960s to today.

The percentage of the population which lives in urban areas has risen consistently through the years. Usually, when people move from the countryside to the city, their living standards tends to plummet on the short-term, but on the long term as many become accustom to the urban environment and begin to emotionally, economically, and otherwise settle into an urban lifestyle, their standard of living increases. For example, while conditions in the shanties of Santo Domingo (which cover around 10% of the urban area) are still quite low, there was a shift in the materials used for construction from wood, cardboard, etc to cement. There are still many wood, cardboard, etc shanties; there are much more cement homes in those shanties. Access to electricity is widespread, television sets are available in most homes, etc which are goods that would have been off reach for many people a decade ago.

So on that hand, conditions have improved considerably.

On the other hand there is the presence of a middle class which is larger than it has ever been, comprising roughly a third of the population (not counting the members of the lower-middle class or working class). This compares favorably with 1960s when the middle class was virtually non-existant and whatever existed was limited to Santo Domingo and was almost entirely composed of civil servants and their families. Today, the Dominican middle class has grown in part because of the growth of government, but overwhelmingly due to the increase in business activity. Not only is the middle class larger today than it ever has been, but it has greater purchasing power than it did in the past as well. Prior to 1960s, the middle class for all practical purposes simply did not exist.

In terms of concrete data comparisons based on the cost of living, it would be hard to do such a detailed micro-level comparisons for the simple reason that the further back in time we go the less available the data becomes. However, per capita income in the 1960s was $1,698 but by 2000 it was $4,967 and from 1950 to 2000 the DR has experienced an increase of 26% in the health share of welfare gain.

Keep in mind that the Dominican Republic experiences various fluctuations on the short term, but on the long term the Dominican Republic has consistently improved it's lot so to speak. This becomes ever more clear when you compare the situation of the country with our neighbor Haiti. In 1960, the DR and Haiti had equal GDP per capita. The disparities have grown since then and much of that has to do with increasing standards of living in the DR vs. a subsequent deterioration of the same in Haiti. However, even if Haiti would had remained stable and its standard of living remained the same, the disparity between the DR and such would still be great to the favor of the DR.

We can also make comparisons with other countries which have done even better than the DR during the same period, such as Malaysia which in 1960s had a similar GDP per capita as the DR but today it's one of the wealthiest countries, particularly if we disregard the data from first world countries which tends to inflate the average GDP per capita on a global level.

If you want, I could embark on a detailed microeconomic comparative analysis of the DR in 1960s vs 2006. However, you will have to give me some time to collect the data, do the regression analysis and reach a conclusion based on hard facts.

For now, indulge in the following readings:

United Nations Human Development Index

Growth in the Dominican Republic and Haiti: Why has the Grass been Greener on One Side of Hispaniola?

Canadian International Development Agency: Dominican Republic

CONSUMER PRICE INDEX (% CHANGE)

Income Inequality in Central America, the Dominican Republic, and Mexico

Population, Health, and Human Well Being: Dominican Republic\

Dimensions of Well Being, Channels of Growth

-NALs
 

Don Juan

Living Brain Donor
Dec 5, 2003
856
0
0
I won't give you statistics, just plain, old life experiences.

When I was a child in the 1950's, Trujillo kept crime, inflation, and consumer prices in check.
Blackouts were extremely rare and life was stable/peaceful. Everyone knew his place and didn't complain. Most people had enough to eat but poverty was rampant in the 'campos'.

Today we have lots of freedom and a larger middle class; all well and good but crime is soaring, and prices are going through the roof.

For years, my mother/father made do with one or two pesos per day for all three meals. We didn't get fat but also didn't starve.

Today, Dominicans spend an inordinate number of pesos for food that makes them fat and liable to all the health risks associated with it.

The drug trade was non-existent; few homicides due to crime.

Today, everyone and his brother carries a firearm for "protection". It seems the freaking police are the ones perpetration most crimes and all is utter chaos.

I'd rather lived under a Trujillo-era milieu than the so-called freedom in today's DR. At least back then, if you didn't make a fuzz, nobody bothered you.
Today, trouble comes looking for you.....Sad but true.
 

Lambada

Gold
Mar 4, 2004
9,478
410
0
80
www.ginniebedggood.com
I won't give you statistics, just plain, old life experiences.

Nothing 'plain' about it, Don Juan. It's that sort of info, personal info from one who has lived it, which is so important and far more meaningful than the dry bookish stuff.

So since you've lived it, I'd like to ask you, if I may, what your views are on the spread of income i.e. is there more 'evening out' of income now than the 50's? Were the wealth differentials between the haves & the have nots more noticeable then, or less so, compared with now?
 

Don Juan

Living Brain Donor
Dec 5, 2003
856
0
0
I don't rightly know.

Ms. Lambada, I was born in 1950 in Santiago, and moved to Ciudad Trujillo in '55. All my recollection of life in DR came from the perspective a child with its corresponding naivete and innocence.
But in retrospect, I do recall reading "El Caribe" and watching (canal4) the only existing TV channel back then.
It showed lots of (farandula), socialites having a great time and great shows at the Jaragua hotel with invited international stars.
It seemed real dandy but I doubt many Dominicans were able to afford this kind of upper crust extravaganzas.
I remember seeing pictures of very well dressed men and women. they mostly always had a drink in one hand, a cigarette in the other and an idiotic (drunken) smirk.
The TV news frequently showed grand Dames and uniformed military personnel standing in a circle around dancing rich folks.- Interesting to note that Merengue was not the music played by these big bands.-
Merengue back then, was not what it is today. For one, it does not even resembles today's version and was mostly a campo music. At the time, Boleros, Cha-cha-cha's, mambos etc, is what you mostly heard on the radio.
"La sonora Matancera" was huge back then as well as Eduardo Brito, Lucho Gatica, Tona la negra, Anibal de pena, Javier Solis, Maria luisa Landin, Leo Marini, Los tres aces, Los Panchos, Victor hugo Ayala, etc. Mostly all international stars.
Also, interesting to note was that Trujillo was never featured in any of these bashes. You never saw him dancing with a woman or having a drink. Apparently parties of this genre were not his cup of tea. His appearances in the news were limited to affairs of state; never socialising...odd isn't it?
And to answer the latter question, Lambada, There's no comparison with the chasm dividing rich and poor back then to today's relatively huge middle class.
Yes, everybody was monetarily poor then. But I wonder if they weren't richer in the quality of their lives?
 

cobraboy

Pro-Bono Demolition Hobbyist
Jul 24, 2004
40,964
936
113
I'd rather lived under a Trujillo-era milieu than the so-called freedom in today's DR. At least back then, if you didn't make a fuzz, nobody bothered you.
I always mentally scratch my head when someone says they prefer peace under a brutal dictator and world isolation over a more chaotic life under freedom and exposure to the world.

I don't get it.:ermm:

I was born in 1952 in the Southern US. Times were more peaceful back then, too. 3 channels of TV, the worse crimes in school was chewing gum, "wait until your father comes home" had teeth, and the milkman left bottles in the little insulated box by the unlocked front door.
 

Lambada

Gold
Mar 4, 2004
9,478
410
0
80
www.ginniebedggood.com
And to answer the latter question, Lambada, There's no comparison with the chasm dividing rich and poor back then to today's relatively huge middle class.
Yes, everybody was monetarily poor then. But I wonder if they weren't richer in the quality of their lives?

Interesting & thank you for your recollections, Don Juan. Even more interesting set against an email I received from a friend today who has just got back home after an extended stay in DR - their 20th. visit spread over as many years. The difference they noticed between their first visit, 20 years ago, & their recent one: this is a trend we have noticed this particular trip....more unhappy people....more people asking for -almost demanding- money. This does not bode well for the future. We are well aware that times are hard....but it seems to us there is a truly unfortunate shift in emphasis and attitude among many Dominicans.

An interesting perception set against your comment about quality of life issues. Perhaps also links to quality of pride in oneself?

P.S. I can 'age' both you & cobraboy. I was born in London in 1943 in the middle of WWII.
 

Don Juan

Living Brain Donor
Dec 5, 2003
856
0
0
Good then, bad now.

I always mentally scratch my head when someone says they prefer peace under a brutal dictator and world isolation over a more chaotic life under freedom and exposure to the world.

I don't get it.:ermm:

I was born in 1952 in the Southern US. Times were more peaceful back then, too. 3 channels of TV, the worse crimes in school was chewing gum, "wait until your father comes home" had teeth, and the milkman left bottles in the little insulated box by the unlocked front door.

Mr. Cobraboy, I certainly do not endorse nor condone living in a repressive dictatorship, but you must admit that today's DR. is much more oppressive due to high crime and governmental/police corruption than just twenty or so years ago.
In the forties, fifties and early sixties, DR experienced a brutal, totalitarian government, I admit. My point is that back then, you only had Trujillo and his goons to fear. Drug dealing and getting killed over a cheap item was unheard of. The police didn't/couldn't shake you down as it is regularly done today.
Life was less complicated and all was peaceful.
Back then, firearms were carried only by the military and other big shots. Today, tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of civilians -don't really know for sure-, carry guns. The more guns in the streets, the easier to commit crimes.
I'm comparing people's life situations and relative security, not political dissimilarities.
I certainly do not "prefer" a Trujillo over a Balaguer or Fernandez, but I do long for the good ol' days when life was simpler everywhere in the world.
 

slrguy

New member
Oct 17, 2006
79
2
0
This is a fascinating thread!

I remember having a very similar conversation with Hatian friends 2 years or so ago, soon after Aristede left.

Almost no electricity. Corrupt goverment troops. Roads miserable. Rampant crime.

I asked them, as a group, were they not better off with the Duvaliers? In unison, they agreed that Haiti was a far better place to live, then. Then why, I asked, did you support Baby Doc's departure? "Because we weren't free!".

I'm nowhere NEAR smart enough to know the answer- but I'm not convinced that democracy's all it's cracked up to be, all the time. I've visited a number of countries, both in our hemisphere and Africa, that most folks were far better off under "benevolent" dictatorships than democracy.

I do know this much - education is the silver bullet. As long as people are uneducated enough to fall for populists like Chavez, their lives trend downward.

I'm curious from older DR hands than myself - what comparisons can be drawn about the schools now, versus 40 years ago?
 

Don Juan

Living Brain Donor
Dec 5, 2003
856
0
0
Better then.

I'm curious from older DR hands than myself - what comparisons can be drawn about the schools now, versus 40 years ago?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't tell you much about it since my family left for the States in '63 when I was 12. We were fleeing the civil war that broke out shortly after trujillo's demise. But up to that time, schools were compulsory and free all the way to the university level.
I attended public school in Ciudad Trujillo (Republica de Haiti and Rep. de Cuba). It had a breakfast program consisting of bread with butter and a bottle of "Tropicoco", a blend of milk and chocolate- delicious and fulfilling!

Don't think DR' primary schools today have such a program. Sad because, having a good-or not so good- breakfast, is what so many children lack in most third world countries, and so essential to learning and developing the minds that someday may lift the country, any country, out of dire poverty and misery.
The corrupt members of government, with notable exceptions, that by greed, indifference, apathy, and downright theft of funds, deny literacy to an entire generation of children and condemn our nation to perpetual third-world status, should be tried and imprisoned for crimes against humanity.

I consider these government parasites to be a malady worse than Trujillo's most ghastly crime against our people.
Until our government stops pouring humongous sums into money pits such as the metro, and restore our birthright to education, DR will remain what it is today: A backwards nation, full of crime and despair.
Heaven help us!
 

Chirimoya

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2002
17,850
982
113
Every time I travel the person who sits next to me just happens to have mislaid his/her glasses, and ask me to fill out the immigration form for them. When it comes to signing, you can tell they're completely illiterate. Last time this happened the person concerned was born in 1939, and would have gone through school in the Trujillo years, when schooling was supposed to be compulsory.

Although the public education system is still in a terrible state, it's always the older ones who seem to need this assistance, FWIW.
 

A.Hidalgo

Silver
Apr 28, 2006
3,268
98
0
A democracy can be a messy endeavor. History is repleted with examples of the long and bumpy road that needs to be transversed, but with time, effort and the nurturing of democratic institutions it can be a beautiful thing.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,485
3,188
113
Don't think DR' primary schools today have such a program. Sad because, having a good-or not so good- breakfast, is what so many children lack in most third world countries, and so essential to learning and developing the minds that someday may lift the country, any country, out of dire poverty and misery.
Don Juan,

The breakfast program in Dominican public schools has been in effect for quite some time since Leonel came back to power. I'm sure every single school is probably not offering breakfast, but many are right now.

There are many good news that people on DR1 either don't want to discuss or are not interested in doing such.

For example, let's take the electricity case. Everyone here is quick to discuss how horrible the electric system is and give the impression that nothing is being done to fix the problem of blackouts.

If I was to take every opinion DR1ers post here as fact, I probably would have lost all hope for the DR.

But, it turns out that the electricity problem is currently being fixed.

According to Listin Diario (which published the following story earlier this week) the Edes (electricity companies) already have 200 circuits nationwide on the 24 hours electricity plan.

Listin Diario said:
"Las tres empresas distribuidoras cuentan con 200 circuitos donde ofrecen energ?a el?ctrica 24 horas al d?a, lo que obedece al programa de recuperaci?n del sector puesto en ejecuci?n desde finales del a?o pasado y acordado con el Fondo Monetario."

"...la cantidad de barrios y poblaciones que han sido incorporados a los programas de suministro continuo se debe a la reducci?n de los niveles de p?rdidas, en vista de que la poblaci?n es solidaria y toma conciencia sobre la necesidad de pagar el servicio el?ctrico. En los pr?ximos d?as ser? anunciada la incorporaci?n de Jarabacoa, Santiago Rodr?guez y 67 barrios de Santiago."
24 HORAS LUZLas Edes cuentan con 200 circuitos

If I would have gotten my information by mere hearsay on the forums of DR1, I would have thought that the authorities were doing nothing to fix the problem, when in fact they are doing something and they are fixing the problem.

The same goes with the notion that anti-drug trafficking actions from police is only to "eliminate competition" as oppose to getting rid of drug trafficking. Of course, are there some corrupt cops, yes! Are all corrupt? No! And the fact that everyone is not corrupt shows through the progressive acts which NOT A SINGLE DR1ER BOTHERED TO TALK ABOUT OR EVEN PUT IN THE NEWS SECTION.

Then again, DR1ers on average have tended to be quite cynical when it comes to discussing progress in the DR, but progress is occuring monetarily, progress is occuring in fixing many of the problems, progress is occuring which no one wants to either talk about or believe it.

-NALs
 

Rick Snyder

Silver
Nov 19, 2003
2,321
2
0
Comparing people's life situations and relative security and the nostalgic desire for the way it used to be has a tendency to ask what it is that has changed.

I too remember growing up in Washington DC in the 50?s and at that time, as indicated by Cobraboy, we lived a pretty secure life and the only fear was of a possible nuclear attack from Russia.

It is the ability to live life without fear that makes us comfortable and secure. Also related to this equation are the freedoms that are afforded to a people. Looking back on history of the DR it is interesting to note the disposition of the Dominican people at the times of Trujillo and Balaguer. Though it appears that all lived a more tranquil life it appears that ?fear? was an ever present part of life as can be witnessed by speaking to Dominicans of that time frame and by the number of people that were murdered almost on a daily basis at the hands of these two leaders.

In my conversations with the elder Dominicans I find it interesting when they tell me that they looked upon these two leaders with respect. When I question them further and say, ?Is it possible that rather then respect you felt fear and were in fact afraid of them?? They have all replied, ?Yes I was afraid of him as you could never tell what he may do?. Of course they are quick to point out that the redeeming feature of these two men where that their toughness was used against those that would do wrong against their fellow Dominicans and because of this their ?fear? was outweighed by knowledge that those caught doing wrong would be punished.

It is apparent that the Dominican people were deprived of many of their present day freedoms. These freedoms not being evident at the time bring out the old adage, ?If you live in a stooped position long enough you can come to mistake it for an upright stance?.

With the added freedoms enjoyed by present day Dominicans then the ability to live life with less ?fear? should be the reality but it isn?t. These added freedoms are one of the major components of a democracy but all that is best left for another thread.

As to education in this country I think the majority of the board knows my feelings concerning this close to the heart subject. If there are any members out there that have an interest in learning about present day education in this country a quick search for past threads on the subject are in abundance. Referring back to the older Dominicans that I have talked to they have informed me that under Trujillo there were no meals supplied to the students. Under Balaguer the food supplied to the students seems to have been of a better quality and quantity then that supplied presently under both Hippo and LF. Of course my thought on this particular subject is whether this ?free? food should be given out to all students or should there be a determining factor as to who should be afforded this ?free? food. I only say this because there are a number of people that can well afford food for their children and do in fact send their children to school with a full belly. Having witnessed the disposition of the leftover food daily, and there is a lot of it, there would appear to be a better way to control this.

Rick
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,485
3,188
113
If there are any members out there that have an interest in learning about present day education in this country a quick search for past threads on the subject are in abundance.
Rick
A better option would be to read the following report:

The Education Sector in the Dominican Republic: Overachievements and Underperformance

Of course, such report are the so called " dry bookish stuff ", so be forewarned that if you don't like reports which deal with hard facts, don't read the report.

However, I think the report does a much better job at describing the education situation as accurately as possible, without taking sides for or against the findings. The discussions on the thread tend to lack "neutrability" and thus, become unattractive to someone who is more like myself.

In other words, anyone who likes to see proofs without additional baggage would find the answers to their questions regarding public education in the Dominican Republic by simply reading the that report rather than reading the lofty threads.

-NALs
 

Lambada

Gold
Mar 4, 2004
9,478
410
0
80
www.ginniebedggood.com
I would certainly agree that there have been changes in the DR - I've noticed many in a short time span of 14 years. Whether all of them are 'progress' is much more debateable. I like to think that the current social ills are outward manifestations of a country going through a rapid period of social change, a social revolution, if you will. I think this potentially volatile situation will calm down noticeably (one way or the other ;) ) inside, say something like a 10 year period. As rapid periods of social change go, this one has been complicated by the drugs/crime issue becoming an issue at the same time.

Overall, I'm not unduly pessimistic for the future of the DR. Where I do agree with some of the posters above is that the corruption of many politicians here is the biggest barrier to positive development. I had such high hopes for Leonel (I mean, no-one could have been worse than Hipolito, could they?) but of course he has allowed his Government to fall into the same old trap of exploiting the population. I'm annoyed at my political naivete: I was really willing the current administration to get it right. Instead of which they turn out to be a more articulate bunch of the same old same old. Now if the country was run by a coalition of community groups, business interests, social welfare organisations and those with a vocation for this sort of thing, I think we'd be a lot better off.

And Chiri, I must have more luck with my travelling companions. The young lady sitting next to me on the Metro bus on Wednesday was due to complete her degree in electrical engineering this year. I couldn't get her to practice her English (just lack of confidence, despite hearing all my mistakes in Spanish) so we decided to speak in a third language we both had but were unsure of, for fun. That led on to 'what other languages do you know?' so I trotted out my one and only phrase in Mandarin Chinese and...........she finished the sentence for me. :)
 

cobraboy

Pro-Bono Demolition Hobbyist
Jul 24, 2004
40,964
936
113
Mr. Cobraboy, I certainly do not endorse nor condone living in a repressive dictatorship, but you must admit that today's DR. is much more oppressive due to high crime and governmental/police corruption than just twenty or so years ago.
In the forties, fifties and early sixties, DR experienced a brutal, totalitarian government, I admit. My point is that back then, you only had Trujillo and his goons to fear. Drug dealing and getting killed over a cheap item was unheard of. The police didn't/couldn't shake you down as it is regularly done today.
Life was less complicated and all was peaceful.
Back then, firearms were carried only by the military and other big shots. Today, tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of civilians -don't really know for sure-, carry guns. The more guns in the streets, the easier to commit crimes.
I'm comparing people's life situations and relative security, not political dissimilarities.
I certainly do not "prefer" a Trujillo over a Balaguer or Fernandez, but I do long for the good ol' days when life was simpler everywhere in the world.
No real disagreement from me. I just find that sometimes romantic nostalgia is more easily remembered than the hard times.

The entire world is less friendly today than it was 40-50-60 years ago. One thing for sure: we hear more about the world now than then, a function of communication technology.

I see it as rats in a cage. At some point peaceful pet rats become violent when there are too many in the cage. The population of the DR was much smaller 40 years ago than today. Seems to me there are more people on the island than the island can peacefully support. Just imagine what it would be like if all the Dominicans in the US came back to live in the DR.

It is very difficult not to look at life without factoring in the political situation.
 

cobraboy

Pro-Bono Demolition Hobbyist
Jul 24, 2004
40,964
936
113
A democracy can be a messy endeavor. History is repleted with examples of the long and bumpy road that needs to be transversed, but with time, effort and the nurturing of democratic institutions it can be a beautiful thing.
Very true.

Democracy is very hard.
 

Lambada

Gold
Mar 4, 2004
9,478
410
0
80
www.ginniebedggood.com
It is very difficult not to look at life without factoring in the political situation.

Very true. There's a new book out by Marino Zapete called La Volvieron Loca. All about corruption in the current and the immediately previous administrations. If they do an English translation it could surpass Moya Pons book as offering 'light bulb' moments to aspiring expats. ;)