Protecting the local culture?

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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I originally posted this as a response to duhtree in another thread, but I think it merits an entire thread all to its own and hopefully will spark a good debate.

duhtree said:
Oh! How exciting! Soon I won't have to leave South Beach. So then what's the point of going to the D.R.

I go to the D.R. for the Dominican Republic and its culture not to a place that is a replica of my home country and sterilized.

What is in your minds, people?

Can't culture exist with progress?

I am often intrigued when people say they go to a place for 'its culture' and yet, the same people reject or, at the very least, feel uneasy when progress begins to take place.

Look at Puerto Rico, very modern and progressive and yet, they still retain much of what makes a Boricua a... well... a Boricua!

Sometimes what people deem as 'culture' in many ways is nothing more than an economically inferior lifestyle compared to the lifestyle of people from the first world and I think many "first world tourists" want for certain places to remain the same forever, for their own enjoyment on their two-weeks vacation.

For many of these foreigners and tourists, the 'real' Dominican culture is manifested in one word: POVERTY. Anything that leads away from poverty is seen as tampering with the 'culture', thus in order to protect the local 'culture', the poverty must be protected as well and that means keeping the huts with thatch roofs, keeping the dirt roads, keeping the deprived people deprived.

Notice how not many tourists regard middle class Dominicans or upper class Dominicans as being part of the 'real culture', it's only the poor Dominicans and many include poor Haitians under the title of the 'real Dominican culture' while excluding Dominicans from the upper classes from such 'real culture'.

Culture is a complex thing that is out there, intangible, fluid, and in constant change. Culture is not manifested through thatch roofs, dirt roads, wooden shacks, and people hanging from pick-up trucks. Culture, real culture goes beyond those visible things.

Thus, the notion that the change Juan Dolio is experiencing is going to be bad because its affecting the local 'culture' I think is a nice way of saying that many tourists/foreigners don't want the area to be affected by progress.

And yes, many do use the excuse that the locals are not being benefitted (despite the construction jobs and the new jobs which will be created). But, I think that even if the locals were given more than their share of such progress, many of these people would still object to such.

Why?

Because if the locals were given the attention that would elevate their standards of living to a level where the actions of goodwill from the foreign tourists will no longer "buy their friendship", those locals will become as "normal" as the people from the country where the tourist came from.

Thus, we are back to the same dilemma once again!

Is it really the 'culture' that most tourists are after or perhaps its something else... that notion of a tropical paradise with palm trees, sunshine, and... uncivilized savages which would create the perfect opportunity for the civilized Westerner to do an act of goodwill in order to feel better for him/herself.

I'm sure many foreigners are truly concerned with the well being of the locals (despite the underlying power influence between relatively wealthier foreigner and impoverished local which creates a friendship based on one giving material gifts to the other while the other gives certain emotions of happiness and, perhaps, a validation to the foreigner of being "good").

However, many doesn't mean all and its that double side coin which keeps me wondering everytime I read or hear a non-local claim that they want to protect to the local 'culture'.

Could it be that they want to protect the local poverty? The local conditions which gives the foreigner a chance to feel good about him/herself when he/she gives gifts to the deprived locals? Could that be where much of the so called charm lies?

Food for thought!

-NALs
 

Alyonka

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I heard from some of them that they appreciate more what they have when they come back. It is like going on a long term camping trip - you get to really love the bed you sleep in afterwards. Not all of them go to poor countries to help out locals, actually most people don't even think about it.
 

Don Juan

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Seriously though.

There are two, no three, no four kinds of tourists/travelers.

One likes the A/I's and doesn't care to go beyond the beach, booze, and food that surrounds him/her. we call these: "Tanmetourists".

The other likes to explore cities, museums, restaurants, souvenir shops, and live shows. We call these: "Gimmeabreaktourists".

Then you have the third and most peculiar kind of tourists. They like to lose themselves in "darkest DR" where they can witness the "true Dominican" Those afflicted by poverty and illiteracy. We call these: "Ifeelyourpaintourists"

And finally, you have the sex-seeking tourist who couldn't care less about anything around him/her. Much less "culture". They came here to get laid and that's all that matters. To heck with museums, beaches, shopping etc. unless that's where the healthy bodies are. We call these: "laymedowntourists".

So there you are, a short synopsis of what could have been a lengthy/boring discussion. No need to thank me!
 

lucine

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That is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. thank-you for shareing
Don Jaun
 
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Chip00

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Nals - first of all interesting post. I sometimes wonder maybe if you weren't born 200 years after your time because you strike me as a real philosophist. (It would be nice if you haven't already to explain your background one day.)

Nonetheless, in reference to your post, the "types" that come here and complain about development upsetting the local economy IMO typically are toeing the "political correct" line nowadays that basically says we should go back to the stone ages as far as living standards etc. These people use this argument to say that the Europeans should have never come to the New World, blah, blah, that having a jeepeta is a sin and that the World Trade Organization is a front for Nazisim! What you should know about these types is they couldn't secretly give a sh$t about their fellow man! In their mind Western European culture is the worst thing that ever happened to this world and nothing will convince them otherwise. Of course, this doesn't keep them from "enjoying" all of the benefits that Western Civilization has brought to the world but in their mind they are "unwitting" participents and therefore not "culpable" as if they had it their way things would have been differnt as they gently sip their mocha cappucino and read about bliss in foreign lands at Barnes and Nobles.

The last thing anybody needs to do when confronted by a specimen as such is pay them any mind. Their god is a pseudo moralism based on civilization bashing and nothing will convince them differently as they go about their anarchist ways!
 

BushBaby

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NALs - I am somewhat surprised at you. You normally check Wikipedia et al before writing but seem not to have done so on this occasion as your interpretation on the word 'Culture' differs from that of many world recognised authorities on words of the English Language! May I offer these below:

Culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
AskOxford: culture
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary
culture -- Encyclopaedia Britannica

Although 'Poverty' is an element which has an effect on certain cultures in the poorer areas, it is NOT the determining factor of what culture is all about. There can be different 'cultures' for the rich & poor IN THE SAME COUNTRY!!

LOCAL culture in Santo Domingo will differ somewhat from that of Santiago or Puerto Plata & will differ again within the social structures of each of those cities. The CAMPO culture is also different to town culture. Can you be more specific as to which you mean by LOCAL culture?

I will expand at a later stage (much later) if this becomes necessary! ~ Grahame.
 

cobraboy

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There are two, no three, no four kinds of tourists/travelers.

One likes the A/I's and doesn't care to go beyond the beach, booze, and food that surrounds him/her. we call these: "Tanmetourists".

The other likes to explore cities, museums, restaurants, souvenir shops, and live shows. We call these: "Gimmeabreaktourists".

Then you have the third and most peculiar kind of tourists. They like to lose themselves in "darkest DR" where they can witness the "true Dominican" Those afflicted by poverty and illiteracy. We call these: "Ifeelyourpaintourists"

And finally, you have the sex-seeking tourist who couldn't care less about anything around him/her. Much less "culture". They came here to get laid and that's all that matters. To heck with museums, beaches, shopping etc. unless that's where the healthy bodies are. We call these: "laymedowntourists".

So there you are, a short synopsis of what could have been a lengthy/boring discussion. No need to thank me!
What would you ncall folks who do not at all fit into any of the four cubbyholes above. They certainly don't apply to me and many folks I know.
 
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Chip00

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What would you ncall folks who do not at all fit into any of the four cubbyholes above. They certainly don't apply to me and many folks I know.

Simple, you're not a tourist just like I never was. You're already integrating yourself into this society as I have been. I don't know what we would be classified as other than "adventurous".
 

Rick Snyder

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After seeing this thread I became interested in establishing the reasoning behind its conception. I went to the thread that sparked this one and after reading all 8 pages I found only one post out of the 73 posts, prior to that made by US03, that mentioned anything concerning culture.

The original thread has to do with progress here within the DR, specifically in the Juan Dolio area, and the majority of the posts were made by the OP to expand on the ongoing progress presently being done in that area. Of the 15 participants of that thread 41 were made by the OP and 11 by MommC. I will get back to this shortly but wish to respond to other things brought out in this present thread.

Culture does exist with progress but in the ensuing progress the culture changes. If the present culture is one which a person likes or enjoys then any change to that culture is sure to be considered unwelcome. If the ensuing progress helps, benefits or affects the indigenous people of that area then the culture of those people is more then likely to change. But in the same token if that progress doesn?t help, benefit or affect those people then the culture is unlikely to change.

Returning to the progress as mentioned in the other thread as it relates to Juan Dolio I would say that the progress is great as it relates to people wishing a nice retirement home and those able to vacation in a rather high cost area of the DR. As it relates to the indigenous people of that area, including the almost indigenous MommC, I would say that the progress isn?t entirely welcome. Juan Dolio is not a new city and therefore the indigenous people, including MommC, have lived there many years without a public sewer system. The present culture of traipsing out to the out-house to squat over a hole in the concrete and when you?re finished you cleanse your backside in the mist of the hovering flies and mosquitoes is still a reality. If a public sewer system should one day be installed AND if the indigenous people should also be allowed to connect to it then the present culture of ?wavering butts? is liable to become a thing of the past. At this point I think it is interesting to note that with the progress that Juan Dolio has seen in the past and that which is presently transpiring that such a thing as a public sewage system and sewage treatment plant haven?t been built prior to any construction now or in the past. Notice I didn?t say ?strange? but rather ?interesting? in that I know why it hasn?t happened yet and the OP of the other thread keeps telling Mommc to ?just wait?. It seems apparent, but unknown by me, that the water tables and beaches in the Juan Dolio area have suffered due to this habit of ?just wait? and it is the indigenous people that suffer the most from this ?just wait? attitude.

Of the threads on this board dealing with sewage treatment, beach access, sewer systems and the like, or lack thereof, I would be inclined to say that in this ensuing progress in this country that the indigenous people are not part of the equation except on a possible temporary basis. Those locals that by some chance may find employment, if it hasn?t already been taken by a cheaper imported worker, will have their employment terminated once the construction is completed. Of the few jobs generated by the completion of this new construction some of them may or may not be held by local people.

Progress be it hotels, apartments, condominiums, road widening, cultural centers and those things not enjoyed or used by the majority of the indigenous people have no long lasting affect on those people and therefore their culture is not likely to change.

To make a statement, ?thus in order to protect the local 'culture', the poverty must be protected as well and that means keeping the huts with thatch roofs, keeping the dirt roads, keeping the deprived people deprived? and trying to be redolent of it being the desire of the visiting tourists is, in my opinion, a reflection of a mind gone astray of the reality of the situation as it applies to this country. The mere mention of the words ?keeping the deprived people deprived? speaks volumes as it relates to ?progress? in this country. If the Dominican government had any true feelings for their citizens then they wouldn?t be ?deprived? to the extent that they presently and have always been.

Rather then starting a thread due to one post out of 73 I would suggest debating a subject that merits debate. As should be noted by the present responses to this thread your subject matter seems to be lacking. Of course it could be just a case of boredom.

Rick
 

2LeftFeet

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It's an interesting thought. I don't know what the answer is. When I visit a country I want to see something different. I certainly don't want it to look like Miami beach --I would've gone there. I don't want Kentucky Fried Chicken, McDonalds, Taco Bell etc. I enjoy local things. I don't think that people of that country need to live in squalor to retain that.

In many developing countries it's either feast or famine. or rather famine or feast. Many times it goes from famine directly to feast and suddenly the little town becomes "Miami Beach" like. Some people like it. I don't. When that happens it looses it's charm and specialness .

It now becomes in competition with Miami Beach, Cancun, Aruba and some other island. Eventually, they will all become the same and boring. Why go to the DR when you can go to....... where they have the ........... Miami Beach has...... and you don't have to ....... change your money, or need your passport-whatever.

I enjoy doing local things. I enjoy walking around a town and seeing how people live and doing their day to day things. If it becomes Miami beach like. That's lost.
 

Rick Snyder

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2LF your statement holds a lot of truths. It is because of that thought that I propose that due to supposed proposed rules a developer could come in and in addition to building his luxury high rise building he could be mandated to build a sewage treatment plant, possibly in conjunction with the DR government, thereby allowing the local people to benefit directly from that which is being built. This would be a benefit to last a lifetime and not of a temporary basis. Such a benefit may in fact change a ?wavering butt? culture but all the other aspects of the culture wouldn?t change. Wait ???.. those aspects of the cultures associated with foul smells and contamination would be eliminated ????? No, I don?t think they would be missed and I honestly don?t think visitors come here to experience those aspects!

It could or should also be mandated that the 'add-on's' be built before or during the other construction instead of the 'just wait' syndrome now experienced.
 

Chris

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Rather then starting a thread due to one post out of 73 I would suggest debating a subject that merits debate. As should be noted by the present responses to this thread your subject matter seems to be lacking. Of course it could be just a case of boredom.

Rick

lol Rick! We had similar thoughts, but came to a different conclusion. My conclusion is that Nals is now reading some far-left or some far-right type material. Not that I mind, I think it is great and a good thing too! I sensed a different flavor in the last few posts from Nals. Just now he is going to join us 'pinko-commie-like' 'tree-hugging-type' humanists. ;)

To the point of this thread, some musings about culture.
If culture is the culmination of what one senses, feels and sees around one when experiencing a different country or when living with a different people, the DR sure has plenty of it. I think Nals has a point in terms of some wanting to retain culture to a fault .. (say pretty painted wooden structures with no running water, nor reasonable kitchen or sanitary facilities).

For me, I wish one could retain the picturesque nature of the pretty painted wooden structures, but inside there could be the necessities of life. One thing about the DR that always struck me as wonderful - In many areas in the campo, where people live in poverty but where they still mostly subsist from the land or from remittances, most of the traditional wooden structures have some kind of garden with a profusion of flowers around it. I've experienced the exchanging of flowering shrubs in the DR so many times - I've stopped along the road to admire a specific plant, and soon a piece of it would be given to me. Once at a hotel, I admired something and the gardener dug up a little piece with roots, put it in some water and gave it to me the next morning, to take home with me. This makes me think that some kind of visible beauty from the natural world forms part and parcel of the culture. It is this aspect that I would not like to see lost as a result of development. Also, I would not like to see the open sharing and 'giving nature' lost, as part of development.

Imo, the sense and visual aspects of the DR countryside is part of its charm, specifically because it falls so differently on the eyes and the senses than whatever is normal for you. It is a pity that when more resources reach the inhabitants of the wooden structure, they almost invariably move up to concrete block, which is not half as beautiful and charming. (Rick, this should not be considered as a criticism as I think you may know :nervous:.)

It is true that when affluent towns anywhere start to look after their inner cities or the oldest parts of their towns, resources go to restoration of what was. The appreciation of culture in the sense of the pretty little wooden structure seems to come only at the time when we restore it. In Puerto Plata specifically there are just so many buildings in the city that used to have such beautiful 'wooden lacework' and other type decoration. This is mostly in rack and ruin - This distinct style is the part of the culture that I would not like to see disappear.

And just to answer Nals, to keep these pieces of visual beauty in the culture, takes money and resources .. so, no, I would not like to see people subsist in poverty. I would like for them to have excess and appreciation, so that these visual aspects of culture can be restored, maintained and even developed.
 

Chirimoya

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Excellent post, Chris. I wanted to add something about those magnificent wooden homesteads one sees in some parts of the Cibao, like Salcedo, where the family has either built a nice new concrete house but kept the old wooden structure in good condition alongside, or the ones where the impressive wooden house is well-maintained and still houses the family.

The same way as I agree that it is patronising to see all poverty as something picturesque that needs to be preserved for the benefit of tourists who then coo "they're poor, but they're happy" :tired: it is also a mistake to hail everything about progress as positive by definition. What aspect of progress was it that Duhtree was complaining about?
 

Rick Snyder

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Speaking of culture, old buildings and the like I happened to think about the history of this town, El Seibo (Seybo). that I live in. If you are familiar with Dominican history and the part that was played here in the East then you are familiar with the history of this area. All of which brings up the first fortaleza that was built in this town an the highest portion here. The present town water tank and the police headquarters now stand in front of this structure.

This first picture is a distance shot of the Comedor of that structure;
Fort1576x432.jpg


This second picture is of the water tank for the compound;
Fort2576x432.jpg


The third is a closer shot of the Comedor;
Fort3576x432.jpg


The fourth is of the Carcel;
Fort5576x432.jpg


And the last is of the only resident in this complex;
Fort6576x432.jpg


There is no date as to when this complex was built but needless to say it was over a hundred years ago.

It saddens me so very much to see such history going to waste and to realize that it is presently used to raise pigs. How sad.

Rick
 
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cobraboy

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What's up with "protecting" a culture.

I thought virtually every culture evolved...
 

2LeftFeet

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I think many times Americans think that our way is better. If we don't see "American things" in a country or if the people in that country aren't living the way we are living they are in need of it because they mustn't be happy. Spreading out imperial ways. I'm sure the DR was fine and much better off w/o Mc Donalds and Taco Bell.

I think many people in poorer countries are happier than we are. I'm not saying that they should go to bed hungry, they shouldn't have running water, they shouldn't have an education I'm saying that so many of us are in the rat race. We NEED this. We NEED that. When in actuality we don't need any of it. We need a roof, food,clothing, family and friends that love us. That's it.

I can only speak for my self but I think many Americans when we travel to other countries are envious of people's happiness and simplier life. I'm not patronizing. I'm sincere when I say they're happy because many times they are. They have their priorities straight. They aren't spending $800 for a birthday party at a chuck-e-cheese for a 5 year old. It's stupid. They haven't been sold the bag of shells yet from the ad agencies. --- Just wait.

When greedy ways start influencing the DR it's a problem. There is nothing wrong with desiring a better life but when you obscess about it and have to have it that's when the problems start. I need THOSE sneakers. I need the YIPETA. Sankies/ Sankiettes????

The society becomes corrupted. The youth in NYC are horrible. They raid all the high end store and shoplift en masse so they can wear it or sell it to ultimately buy what they want.

How does this fit in. I think that it does. Change is good. But I believe that it needs to be done in a smart way.

You don't want the "little" people to be taken advantage of and corrupted by money. You don't want them to sell their soul and in essence sell the country out to the builders of the world. The builders don't care. They'll get what they want and leave.
 
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cobraboy

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2LF-who gets to decide how, where and when a culture evolves?

Where does free will fit in?

Once again, it sounds like romantic nostalgia, but with one group dictating what's good and bad for the whole group.

The genie is out of the bottle in the DR. And pretty much most of the planet. Can't put it back in...