land title forgeries

Bob

Could you provide a link for the case you are talking about?

Thanks

Bob, what is your purpose for participating on DR1? It seems to me that your main interest is making claims about the terrible things that can happen to people here.

I am not saying there may not be forged documents, but if you work with a lawyer like Fabio Guzman, then you have somebody who will not let you buy property until he is sure there is a clear title and that it is properly registered with the government.

Also, has has been reported on dr1 in the past, title insurance is available in the Dominican Republic.

Your posts often remind me of the story I head as a child about running through the steets shouting the sky is falling, the sky is falling.

Just a view.

Maybe the thread should have been expanded

Perhaps Bob's OP should not have been limited to just title-and just as Ken jumped to the "negative card" let me expanded a little on the problems of owning ANY second home. It's HARD no matter where it is.

I owned a second home for many, many years here in the U.S. It was to me a constant source of worry. Did someone break in? Did the pipes freze? Did someone tresspass, etc. etc?
So when someone looks to invest a great deal of money in a country that perhaps is not under the same rule of law that you are familiar with, several thousand miles away, different language, and on and on, one would have many concerns about making that investment. Would they not?

So--they ask Bob, who goes to visit his GF. Why not? He says "why do that go to a good hotel and be worry free." It's what I do an I dont find any problem with that. It's not a negative against the DR its just his opinion on what he would do.

Ken--you might be a little sensistive on this subject but think about a person that wants to make a major investment in anything. How else do they do their due deligence?
john

laurapasinifan said:

I know this has to be a sore spot for many here , because they live in the DR and plan to stay there....bob

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Well I live here and no your post doesn't raise a sore spot at all. We own the house in which we live, but we live here 24/7/365 so we're on top of things because we're here. I personally wouldn't be an absentee homeowner in the DR. Too much potential hassle. I live by the mantra of 'damage control' and if absent I wouldn't be able to control.

And on the titles mafia...........I think I've posted this a while back in a different Forum. When Diario Libre first raised this in Oct. 2005 I followed it & eventually did a search on our title (even though we'd had it 6 years) just to make sure it hadn't 'changed hands' without us knowing. I'll be repeating that exercise every 2/3 years. It costs very little to do it yourself, just some time. And it does signal to everyone at the Land Registry that I'm keeping an eye on our title. So if a title was to fall prey to the 'mafia' it'd probably be one that didn't have Do?a Damage Control clucking over it.

Bob, no doubt there has been alot of problems with titles in the past, as well as other issues with property ownership, and there will always be stories of these problems...however, there are new laws in place and even a change in "attitude" with more North American buyers/Investors here now...that will hopefully reduce these problems, and eventually, all but eliminate the possibility of "stealing" titles.

that being said, being an absentee owner here, especially if your property is not in a well-managed complex, can be a nightmare...and if you only use it once a year, rarely makes sense to buy vs. rent...true of everywhere in the world, including the US, but worse here than many places.

But I have a question...where do you get the $1 million figure for buying a vacation property here? Does your friend usually rent a massive villa when he comes here for vacation? Id say 95% of all vacation villas, single home lots, and condos for sale in this country (except for maybe Casa de Campo, Cap Cana, and Sea Horse Ranch), are waaaaaaay under $1 million...and for the last few years, in well-run communities, values have appreciated nicely, and for at least the foreseeable future, even if these properties don't increase in value, they show no sign of depreciating...

Bob... gotcha... and as I said, I personally would never pay that much ANYWHERE for a villa I used a couple of times a year...even with rental income, it would take years and years to possibly break even, and I doubt million dollar villas anywhere are going to skyrocket in value in the next few years...

If someone's really interested in a big villa directly on the ocean, the prices here are considerably less than most other places in the caribbean, and probably 1/10th the price of something similar in South Florida. I seriously doubt you could find an oceanfront villa that sells for around a million here, for less than twice that price in any 1st world country in the world.

If he's looking for a place to spend half the year for example...buying vs. renting may make alot of sense... even here

DavidZ said:

however, there are new laws in place and even a change in "attitude" with more North American buyers/Investors here now...that will hopefully reduce these problems, and eventually, all but eliminate the possibility of "stealing" titles.

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There are 3 current situations which should be instructive to follow: first is Jos? Carlos Berganti?os D?az litigation with George Nader
Demanda judicial de Bergantiños contra Nader, llega hasta Washington - Diario Horizonte - Noticias Dominicanas - Quisqueya

Second is an apparently illegal lien put on a Seahorse Ranch property
Cayena News, t?glich aktuelle Nachrichten & Informationen ?ber die Dominikanische Republik

and third is the 'invasion' & removal of goods from Breezes Hotel
Denuncian vandalizan hotel en Puerto Plata - Diario Horizonte - Noticias Dominicanas - Quisqueya

It'll be interesting to see what the eventual outcome of these will be. They all have a bearing on the OP's point about being able to 'trust that it is yours & will remain so'.

Lambada said:

And on the titles mafia...........I think I've posted this a while back in a different Forum. When Diario Libre first raised this in Oct. 2005 I followed it & eventually did a search on our title (even though we'd had it 6 years) just to make sure it hadn't 'changed hands' without us knowing. I'll be repeating that exercise every 2/3 years. It costs very little to do it yourself, just some time. And it does signal to everyone at the Land Registry that I'm keeping an eye on our title. So if a title was to fall prey to the 'mafia' it'd probably be one that didn't have Do?a Damage Control clucking over it.

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....but for those of us who don't have fluent Spanish along with your tenacity and knowledge of procedures it could be a bit of a minefield (i.e. virtually impossible) to do this ourselves. I don't suppose for one moment you'd think about offering this as a service........I know I'd pay every 2/3 years.........or would it be too much grief!

I know one could engage a lawyer, but I guess it would work out pretty expensive....probably worth it for peace of mind though....

Sharlene said:

....but for those of us who don't have fluent Spanish along with your tenacity and knowledge of procedures it could be a bit of a minefield (i.e. virtually impossible) to do this ourselves. I don't suppose for one moment you'd think about offering this as a service........I know I'd pay every 2/3 years.........or would it be too much grief!

I know one could engage a lawyer, but I guess it would work out pretty expensive....probably worth it for peace of mind though....

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I don't have fluent Spanish either and I didn't have any knowledge of the proceedures until I actually went & did them. What I do have is a superabundance of self confidence that there is virtually no bureaucratic hurdle I can't overcome, one way or the other.......... (yeah, I know delusional!). I'd be leery of offering a 'service' since I could rub the lawyer mafiosi up the wrong way if they thought I was taking work off them or doing it for money (which I wouldn't but they might think so). So, I'll spell out here what you need to do and encourage you to have a go yourself. If you haven't managed it yourself by August/Sept when I should have a bit more time, you can come over to PP and I'll walk you through it. Does that sound fair?

Get a copy of your titulo and your catastral. When I did it I didn't want them to know I was searching my own title (in case I got 'of course it'll be ok') so the applicant for the search was my partner who has a different surname and whose name isn't on titulo. Go to Rentas Internas in Antera Mota, PP, and ask for recibo 232 + recibo 10 + a 30 pesos DGII tax stamp. Total price is 272 pesos (232+10+30). May have gone up in last year since everything else has. To get the recibos you'll need copy of your cedula so go armed with lots of cedula copies (or passport 2 main pages if you haven't got cedula).

Then go to Land Registry (next door to new Courts at big roundabout). Give the receptionist your recibos, stamp, copy cedula/passport, copy titulo, catastral & they could ask for copy of last IVSS payment or exemption from same, so have that as well. The only other thing you will need is a solicitud - a letter in Spanish requesting search to uncover any liens, charges etc on the property - 'Quien suscribe Snra Sharlene XXX de nacionalidad Inglesa (you are British?) con cedula/passaporte numero XXX residente en Sosua, tiene a bien solicitar si existe cargas y gravamenes sobre la parcela No. XXX del DC XXX de Sosua, Puerto Plata, amparada por el certificado de titulo, duplicado del dueno No. XXX (anotacion No. XX) (Carta constancia expedidad de acuerdo con el art. 195 de la ley de registro de tierras)' or if that has been superceded by a later law put that one in. Address it to Registradora de Titulo del Municipio de Puerto Plata, from solicitante Sharlene XXX. Add your phone number at bottom.

Submit all these docs then wait. Check back after 3 weeks to see if it is done or take phone number & call them. I have a friend who works there who is always very helpful so when sucessful outcome is achieved I always recognise that with a little gift (perfume, jewellery not cash). When you go back to collect your certificacio you will get a sheet of paper with Poder Judicial at the top then 8 or so lines typed, stamped & signed by the Registradora. Look for words like 'hasta la fecha no existe ningun tipo de gravamen' then you'll know you're ok.

You can do this, Sharlene. It isn't difficult. Just time consuming. Good luck & keep me posted.

P.S. Another twist on a titles scam I noticed last night
El Nacional, la voz de todos

Thanks Lambada.......

Thanks very much for that Lambada, it's very much appreciated. I was always very confident with regard to bureaucracy and dealing with government departments etc in UK, but seem to have left my confidence behind a bit when it comes to DR..... probably the language barrier (though I'm trying to learn...) plus a general lack of knowledge about the way things operate here..... It's funny how confidence 'rubs off'.... just reading your post has made me feel that there's a possibility I could do it myself........

I've not long received my title deeds, so will leave it a reasonable amount of time before I carry out a search, but I'll definitely act on your information which I hope will be useful to other people too.

Sharlene said:

It's funny how confidence 'rubs off'.... just reading your post has made me feel that there's a possibility I could do it myself........

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And when you do, dig out this thread and post on it and that way your confidence will rub off on others...............