Interesting Article on DR in Miami Herald

Mirador

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"A Rising Voice: Afro-Latin Americans Miami Herald

Dominican Republic

Black denial

Nearly all Dominican women straighten their hair, which experts say is a direct result of a historical learned rejection of all things black...."


False! ridiculous! nonsense! hogwash! swill journalism at its worst! pure anti-Dominicanism!...
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Interesting article indeed, interesting to see wishful thinking in action.

-NALs:tired:
 
C

Chip00

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Interesting article witha lot of truths and unfortunately some untruths. Yes, Dominicans on the whole don't accept their African heritage but neither do they accept their Indian heritage either.

I think the following excerpts from Dominicans in the article below pretty much describe the dynamic:

"The problem is Haitians developed a policy of black-centrism and . . . Dominicans don't respond to that," said scholar Manuel N??ez, who is black. "Dominican is not a color of skin, like the Haitian."

"Under Trujillo, being black was the worst thing you could be," said Afro-Dominican poet Blas Jim?nez. "Now we are Dominican, because we are not Haitian. We are something, because we are not that."

My understanding is that Dominicans in effect associate black with Haitian and therefore would like to distance themselves from the "common" characteristics as much as possible. However, this "aversion" to all charecteristics only goes so far. Dark people in the DR, while maybe are not considered as "attractive" etc. aren't typically prejudiced against the same as can be found in othere racially divisive societies. Sure, young guys and girls who are somewhat dark (as most are in the DR) will say they want to marry someone with light skin and clear eyes but that doesn't stop them from marrying someone even darker than them.

Also, the perspective of the author IMO is that of the typically biased politically correct reporter from the west. They try to simplify the complex dynamic is that is present here in the DR and try to describe it in divisive and destructive terms in order to be able to understand/correlate it to their own experience. Par for the course in today's day and age unfortunately.
 

NALs

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Chip00 said:
Interesting article witha lot of truths and unfortunately some untruths. Yes, Dominicans on the whole don't accept their African heritage but neither do they accept their Indian heritage either.
I don't agree with such statement.

Embracing any type of heritage is not simply a basis of saying "yes I support this or that" or saying "I am this or that". Embracing any type of heritage is more than that and quite often, deeds are more valuable than any amount of words!

African and Indian contribution to Dominican culture are as prevailant, widely practiced by people of all colors and background, and intertwined with the European contribution to a degree that few aspects of Dominican culture can be considered a pure African or Indian or European aspect.

Now there is a growing number of educated young Dominicans who are aware, in both deeds and words, of the African as well as Indian contribution to Dominican society, not to mention the European component; but being aware of each contribution doesn't need to equate the focus on one aspect over another when its all a melting pot.

Dominican culture is not one or two things, it the result of a tri-cultural mixture. Similarly how the color gray is the result of the mixture between the colors white and black, so too is the Dominican culture. To call gray anything else would be wrong, to assume that the color gray is black would be wrong, to assume that the color gray is white is also wrong.

Gray is gray, white is white, black is black.

Dominican society is Dominican society, which in its complete mixture is different from any other society on earth, including that of the Haitians.

Similarities abound, but then again, Dominican society is not just about those similarities, its more than that and that is something MANY people simply don't want to accept.

Chip00 said:
I think the following excerpts from Dominicans in the article below pretty much describe the dynamic:

"The problem is Haitians developed a policy of black-centrism and . . . Dominicans don't respond to that," said scholar Manuel N??ez, who is black. "Dominican is not a color of skin, like the Haitian."

"Under Trujillo, being black was the worst thing you could be," said Afro-Dominican poet Blas Jim?nez. "Now we are Dominican, because we are not Haitian. We are something, because we are not that."

Its true, being Dominican has little to do with the physical and more to do with the cultural, the actions, a way of thinking, a way of life, a way of living.

The problem with many foreign journalists and so-called experts is that they continue to treat the country as if Trujillo was still in power, calling the shots on every aspect of life. On top of that, they impose their foreign US-influenced cultural problems with race, color, and ethnicity and attempt to apply such to the Dominican Republic (or any Latin American country).

Such attempt distorts the reality of a place to a degree that it ends up being mere wishful thinking, more than anything.

The US race, color, ethnic experience is an anomaly in the cultures of the world, its an exception to the rule, its a tragic exception to the rule.

Many people fail to see it as that, they fail to see the anomaly that is US race relations, despite all the signs which proves such. They fail to see such and then they thunder through the world trying to apply and judge everything through an American racial,color,ethnic filter that simply leaves much to be desired in its conclusions of the rest of the world vs. reality.

Chip00 said:
My understanding is that Dominicans in effect associate black with Haitian and therefore would like to distance themselves from the "common" characteristics as much as possible. However, this "aversion" to all charecteristics only goes so far. Dark people in the DR, while maybe are not considered as "attractive" etc. aren't typically prejudiced against the same as can be found in othere racially divisive societies. Sure, young guys and girls who are somewhat dark (as most are in the DR) will say they want to marry someone with light skin and clear eyes but that doesn't stop them from marrying someone even darker than them.
Dominicans are Dominicans, plain and simple.

Haitians are Haitians, plain and simple.

The rest is conversation which Dominicans fully understand, Haitians fully understand, and many foreigners (such as the author of the article) fully misunderstand to its most miserable degree.

Chip00 said:
Also, the perspective of the author IMO is that of the typically biased politically correct reporter from the west. They try to simplify the complex dynamic is that is present here in the DR and try to describe it in divisive and destructive terms in order to be able to understand/correlate it to their own experience. Par for the course in today's day and age unfortunately.
Certainly, they want to package what is unpackageable (if there is such a word).

Better yet, they want to impose a way of interpreting a society that works well in the United States, because of the US anomaly in race relations; but fails miserably when applying the same concepts and techniques when judging and trying to understand other cultures, particularly Latin American ones.

For example, the issue of race and color are the same in the DR as they are in Haiti. But for some reason, the DR gets all the unwanted attention in this matter while people simply assume things about Haiti, usually they assume of Haiti being the complete opposite of whatever they assume of the DR.

Read this: Racism in Haiti

According to some foreign "experts", what that article mentions of Haiti is suppose to be "unique" of the DR, or at the very least, should not be the case in Haiti, but they are acting as if its not when it is!

-NALs
 

Narcosis

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"A Rising Voice: Afro-Latin Americans Miami Herald

Dominican Republic

Black denial

Nearly all Dominican women straighten their hair, which experts say is a direct result of a historical learned rejection of all things black....


HAHAHA...I guess those same "experts" would claim the following:

White denial

Nearly all European women tan their skin in the sun or tanning booths, which experts say is a direct result of a historical learned rejection of all things white...
 

ambre

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"The problem with many foreign journalists and so-called experts is that they continue to treat the country as if Trujillo was still in power, calling the shots on every aspect of life. On top of that, they impose their foreign US-influenced cultural problems with race, color, and ethnicity and attempt to apply such to the Dominican Republic (or any Latin American country). "

NALS, I agree with you to some degree on the fact that this article is very biased and doesn't begin to show all the complexities of Dominican culture, but to say that the DR doesn't not have it's fair share of racial conflict or a rejection of "black heritage" is out and out denial. In my short time here I have already encountered numerious situations that show the contrary.

I am not an expert, but where my boyfriend lives, in the last 3 months 4 Haitains have been murdered and everyday there are instances of racial slurs against those who are more "black." People are constantly referring to "pelo malo" and how black is bad, etc...

Then I have my own personal experience. I work in a over-privilaged rich kids school in the capital, where the majority of students are "white" Dominicans. All I hear day in and out is "I'm not black" - many ignorant and negative references to being darker skinned, etc... I can't even begin to list exact quotes. All I can really say is that they as a group look down on being what the author termed "black." One student at my school who had "bad" long hair, was made to cut it all off, while the male students with soft, flowing hair are allowed to keep it long.

This is a culture of "gray" as you said - a melting pot, but as in the US which you said tries to impose it's theories on race, etc.... there are problems here. I don't know if you are denying that or are just not in agreement with the slant of the article.

In any case, I think your quote below is inaccurate. I agree that the culture, actions way of thinking are "being Dominican, but to say being Dominican doesn't include a HUGE emphasis on the physical as well, well then your in denial too.

"Its true, being Dominican has little to do with the physical and more to do with the cultural, the actions, a way of thinking, a way of life, a way of living. "
 

slrguy

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I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable to comment on the race dynamic....but I did remember how often I see references to "dominican hairstylists" in the States on this board, as I read the article this morning...

Answered a couple questions for me. ;)
 

NALs

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ambre said:
NALS, I agree with you to some degree on the fact that this article is very biased and doesn't begin to show all the complexities of Dominican culture, but to say that the DR doesn't not have it's fair share of racial conflict or a rejection of "black heritage" is out and out denial. In my short time here I have already encountered numerious situations that show the contrary.
I never said "the Dr doesn't have its fair share of racial conflict", that's something YOU assume based on... well I don't know what its based on since I never said or alluded to such.

People, please don't read beyond what's presented.

ambre said:
I am not an expert, but where my boyfriend lives, in the last 3 months 4 Haitains have been murdered and everyday there are instances of racial slurs against those who are more "black." People are constantly referring to "pelo malo" and how black is bad, etc...
Such example alludes to a completely different topic.

Racism, classism, sexism, and all the other "-isms" exist in the DR as well.

Again, I fail to see WHERE have I mentioned that those types of injustices don't exist in the DR.

ambre said:
Then I have my own personal experience. I work in a over-privilaged rich kids school in the capital, where the majority of students are "white" Dominicans. All I hear day in and out is "I'm not black" - many ignorant and negative references to being darker skinned, etc... I can't even begin to list exact quotes. All I can really say is that they as a group look down on being what the author termed "black." One student at my school who had "bad" long hair, was made to cut it all off, while the male students with soft, flowing hair are allowed to keep it long.
"Over-priviliged rich kids" also bully many of the sons/daughters of foreign dignitaries, foreign embassy workers, NGO members, etc. You should see how much those expatriate communities complain of their kids being ridiculed and mocked by the sons/daughters of the upper classes and most of the kids being ridiculed are white themselves.

Is that a case of "disliking blackness"?

Of course not!

Those are cases of classism and classism is often confused under the US race/ethnicity filter with racism.

I guarantee you that those kids will say xyz of what may appear to be racism, but if they have a "black" friend or classmate, they will often exclude such person from such comments. They will often say "I don't mean you, its those people the problem" with the "those" often being the poor.

Often times, the same will occur when they bully the sons/daughters of foreigners in those schools, which is a problem given the high number of complaints from such community in Santo Domingo.

Go ahead and do a little experiment and you will see what I am saying.

Its classism more than anything else, unlike in the US where a racial slur applies to the entire "race" regardless if the person is upper, middle, or lower class.

It is a fine line of classism and racism, but classism has the upper hand in that and many other aspects concerning this.

ambre said:
This is a culture of "gray" as you said - a melting pot, but as in the US which you said tries to impose it's theories on race, etc.... there are problems here. I don't know if you are denying that or are just not in agreement with the slant of the article.
Actually, neither.

The only problem here is that you are seeing beyond what is written, you are seeing things that I never alluded to or mentioned.

Please show me where did I said that the DR is problem free because I frankly don't see it anywhere in my response.

ambre said:
In any case, I think your quote below is inaccurate. I agree that the culture, actions way of thinking are "being Dominican, but to say being Dominican doesn't include a HUGE emphasis on the physical as well, well then your in denial too.

"Its true, being Dominican has little to do with the physical and more to do with the cultural, the actions, a way of thinking, a way of life, a way of living. "
I, as a Dominican, have NEVER entered a room and attempted to judge whose Dominican by mere looks and quite frankly I don't care and I have never met another Dominican who has done that.

ALL Dominicans, particularly Dominican expatriates, know whose Dominican the moment a person opens their mouth and THEN will the two - in a room where all the other peoples are not Dominican - approach each other and develop some rapport. How far such rapport goes depends on the socio-economic standing of each other, which won't take long to be demonstrated by the vocabulary, body posture, etc of each other.

Skin color and physical appearance is never an issue in those circumstances.

Sure, sometimes there might be a chino who might say he's Dominican and people might look at him funny... until he opens his mouth and all those Dominicanism comes out. At that point forward, the fact that he's chino means nothing... he's one us, a Dominican.

That is a completely different scenerio of what many African-Americans and European-Americans do when they enter a room.

If an AA enters a room, the first thing they look for is physical appearance to see if someone who looks like them is there and if someone is, they will gravitate to such. Based on that factor alone, the two develop rapport and maintain such rapport - unless one of the two happens to be Hispanic and at that moment the AA will get the vibe that the two "are not on the same page" as far as kinship and rapport goes.

Americans (not all) look for the physical to feel "secure, accepted, and at ease" in a setting where the other AMERICANS look radically different from the "minority".

Dominicans look for the cultural and the linguistic to feel "secure, accepted, and at ease" in a setting where the other people are not Dominican, and if the other people happen to be Hispanic and no other Dominicans are there, the Dominican will feel at ease with them -- regardless of looks!

Within the DR a similar thing occurs, with the exception that there no one is searching for another Dominican since most people are Dominican and that's obvious. What Dominicans in the DR do search for is socio-economic status and they seek those who are at their same level.

But again, the way such is decided is based on the cultural and not merely on the physical.

So I don't see this "denial" that you claim to see, I don't see where I stated that the DR is problem-free, and I don't see why you are seeing beyond the point.

Hopefully we can clear this misunderstanding which, to me at least, is typical of foreigner or even Dominicans who have been accepting of the US or Western views on race and fail to remove such "filter" from their observance of Dominicans and Dominican culture at work before their very own eyes.

-NALs
 
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Funnyyale26

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I agree again w/ NALS...Dominicans, as people in other Latin American countries are more classists than racist. I am sure that if Haitians were rich and were to bring good things to the country, they would be more accepted but because they're poor (aside from the cultural prejudices that Dominicans feel for them) they are not welcomed by many. In France, it's the same thing.
 

Squat

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Jan 1, 2002
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I think Nals' last post is right on the spot.

The article seems to be written by an african-american, or someone who just doesn't understand the subtilities of the DR life...

That said, there's still a major amount of racism, and I can't disagree 100% with that article...

Anyway, down here in Las Terrenas, many people with Afros, with Dreadlocks... It's in fashion !
 

El_Uruguayo

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There definately is some truth to the article. Upon arrival I found it trivial that people who obviously had african roots were telling me about "pelo malo" and "biel bueno." That if I said negra, someone would correct me and say "india." There also doesnt seem to be much african influence in religion, as in Iemanja celebrations etc., and african drum rythms are less pronounced than in other countries. Now do I find that people were rascist? Not really, skin colour is not such an important characteristic when it comes to making friends or dating, in fact I felt more at ease with dominicans than with African-Canadians, who I find will often point out differences between black and white, I didn't find this with dominicans. But as I said, the notion of "pelo malo" and even "piel malo" is trivial to me, especially in a place where the majority of people have those characteristics. I would tell people that their hair is nice, because it looked nice, or that that if I think their skin is "good", it's because it's smooth and not because of the colour.
 

Funnyyale26

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There definately is some truth to the article. Upon arrival I found it trivial that people who obviously had african roots were telling me about "pelo malo" and "biel bueno." That if I said negra, someone would correct me and say "india." There also doesnt seem to be much african influence in religion, as in Iemanja celebrations etc., and african drum rythms are less pronounced than in other countries. Now do I find that people were rascist? Not really, skin colour is not such an important characteristic when it comes to making friends or dating, in fact I felt more at ease with dominicans than with African-Canadians, who I find will often point out differences between black and white, I didn't find this with dominicans. But as I said, the notion of "pelo malo" and even "piel malo" is trivial to me, especially in a place where the majority of people have those characteristics. I would tell people that their hair is nice, because it looked nice, or that that if I think their skin is "good", it's because it's smooth and not because of the colour.


The thing about the hair...let me explain.


The reason why people differentiate between pelo malo and pelo bueno is not because of the African element per se, but because kinky (African hair) is very difficult to manage, it's unruly so it's hard to comb. Even African American women are aware of this, and they use chemical relaxers to make their hair manageable, just as Dominican women do.


The skin issue....that is whole different ballgame and since I am a white dominican and I have never heard any comments as to wether my white skin is beautiful or not, I can't comment.
 

cobraboy

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Re: the Miami Herald article.

There are many in the US that if a situation doesn't fit into their little agenda box, the situation is at fault, not the box.

I think Nals hit it with his comment:
Nals said:
The US race, color, ethnic experience is an anomaly in the cultures of the world, its an exception to the rule, its a tragic exception to the rule.

They will criticize another culture because that culture doesn't adhere to their enlightened orthodoxy. The author of the article exhibits just that.
 

DR_Amante

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Also, the perspective of the author IMO is that of the typically biased politically correct reporter from the west. They try to simplify the complex dynamic is that is present here in the DR and try to describe it in divisive and destructive terms in order to be able to understand/correlate it to their own experience. Par for the course in today's day and age unfortunately.

Ethnocentric. Americans are taught to view the world this way. How does [it] any culture, behavior, practice, you name it, compare to the US; and isn't the rest of world just like us - or at least want to be? Marketing rule: in order to sell magazine & newspapers, one must cater to one's audience.

My impression is that IF the author spent any time in the DR, he/she went there with an agenda. And found only those people and examples that supported their thesis - which IS typically american and divisive.

on my way back to the states from the DR once (it's a long flight/s and I have alot of time to reflect), it dawned on me that as gracious and kind as the people are, there's still alot of judgement, I even used the term "racism" in my notes.

I had been the object of racism - or as NALS said, I think classism based on assumptions because of my skin color is more accurate. I also wrote at the time that skin color mattered (to dominicans) in that "lighter" was somehow better (my friends always ask for sunscreen among other items when I come), and Haitians were definitely at the low end of the pecking order. I saw discrimination and racism against Haitians in the same barrio as Dominicans. I also met some very well-educated Haitians (both with and without "papers" - similar feelings in DR about illegal immigration as in the states? that's not my impression)
And being white implied wealth, no matter how you dress or what you do.

Then, I thought about work. Typically the "blue collar workers" are outdoors, working on the farms/plantations, in construction, vendedores en las playas - causing skin to become darker. "White collar workers" are the profesionales - working indoors in banks, schools, even the govt. So, the lightness of one's skin is in some respects related to work or job status. (true across countries/cultures?)

IMO in the DR, dominicans tend to be more concerned with social standing rather than skin color. But it doesn't mean they don't pay attention to it and from observation make assumptions about class. Y m?s, I think attention is paid to ?personas buenas o malas? once they interact with or observe another person?s behavior, as much as to ?Bueno pelo.? I have dark, short curly-wavy hair (white woman) and when I?m commenting on how ?malo?it is because it?s out of control due to humidity, I?m always corrected ' ta bueno. Now here in the states, it's another matter; they're likely to agree with me (ta malo) p/q appearances matter.

In the US / unfortunately, much stereotyping continues to be made based on skin color and facial features -= physical appearance including clothing.

Maybe there are just ignorant people no matter where you are. and then there are the enlightened ones. Thanks for this discussion and bringing the topic up.
 

DR_Amante

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p.s. Different doesn't mean better or worse

Re: the Miami Herald article.

There are many in the US that if a situation doesn't fit into their little agenda box, the situation is at fault, not the box.

I think Nals hit it with his comment:

They will criticize another culture because that culture doesn't adhere to their enlightened orthodoxy. The author of the article exhibits just that.

Agreed!

I wanted to add, it's not just americans, but most cultures believe that "the way they do/see things" is the right way. And missionaries - regardless of particular faith or brand - . . . And finally, what comes to mind is the recent criticism of the World Bank and other organizations for not being able to bring real "aid" to underdeveloped areas in spite of money/resources that are given. Often, the presumption is that the "western way" is best, when in fact it's not always best in another culture.

Different doesn't mean better or worse.
 

mountainannie

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elizabetheames.blogspot.com
Dominican Institute at CUNY

"You should see how they come in here with their big asses!'' she said,
shuffling across her office with her arms extended behind her back,
simulating an enormous rear-end. "They come in here thinking they are
tall that, and I think, 'doesn't she know she's not really pretty?' "

This is a quote from the article from Dr. Ramona Hernandez, Director of the Institute of Dominican Studies at City College of NY.

As an alumna of CUNY, I have written to Dr.Hernandez, asking that she 1) apologize for her statement and 2) take an administrative leave from her position as the head of the Institute while she studies cultural sensitivity and racism.

I sent copies to the Provost of the University and the head of the office of Affirmative Action,Diversity and Compliance.

If Dominicans and Haitians can't even get along in NYC, inside the University, what hope do we have here on the Island.

First we had Imus and now we've got Dr. Hernandez.

I scratch my nappy head.

:ermm:
 

vegasdiva

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Dec 2, 2006
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Thank you!

;)
"You should see how they come in here with their big asses!'' she said,
shuffling across her office with her arms extended behind her back,
simulating an enormous rear-end. "They come in here thinking they are
tall that, and I think, 'doesn't she know she's not really pretty?' "

This is a quote from the article from Dr. Ramona Hernandez, Director of the Institute of Dominican Studies at City College of NY.

As an alumna of CUNY, I have written to Dr.Hernandez, asking that she 1) apologize for her statement and 2) take an administrative leave from her position as the head of the Institute while she studies cultural sensitivity and racism.

I sent copies to the Provost of the University and the head of the office of Affirmative Action,Diversity and Compliance.

If Dominicans and Haitians can't even get along in NYC, inside the University, what hope do we have here on the Island.

First we had Imus and now we've got Dr. Hernandez.

I scratch my nappy head.

:ermm:

. . . for speaking out against perpetuating stereotypes! It's one thing if it's true objective information, but to write about it like it's the norm and is all ok ... And too many kids today believe that if something is in print, it's "the truth":ermm:

You know nothing probably will happen to her. She got a publication out of it. It counts toward her tenure, so in the university?s eyes, it's all good. But then . . . the office of diversity - depending on who's running the show, they might raise their eyebrows.

I'd like to know what kind of response you get. Thx.

vegasdiva