Are things getting better here?

Mirador

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No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver

If anyone doubts if things are getting better, I can tell you they are. While everyone is complaining about how tough things are, all you have to do is go to any large store, and check out the checkout lines. For example, everytime I go to PriceSmart, the parking lot is full. Completely. Not a space to be found. Plaza Lama, Multicentro? The same thing. Tough to find a parking spot. Bella Vista is always full, and so is Plaza Central. There is a lot of people spending a lot of money. People always complain, no matter how well things are going, but things ain't that bad....


Plaza Lama, Multicentro, Bella Vista Mall, Plaza Central, except PriceSmart, are all practically walking distance from each other, and are located in the middle/higher income neighborhoods of Santo Domingo. The reality is that the majority of Dominicans live outside of these neighborhoods and in towns and cities where their joblessness and/or low earnings makes these or similar shopping centers inaccesable to them. The vast majority of Dominicans are dirt poor, and currently find it tough to even place a single daily hot meal on their family's table.
 

Chirimoya

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Dec 9, 2002
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Things are not good at all for most.

Just work out - how many households earn less than the RD$18,000 "family basket" the Banco Central estimates is needed for the absolute basics?

That's households, not individuals.

Even in a hypothetical household with two minimum wage earners, with little extras on the side from informal activities and a couple of hundred dollars in remittances thrown in, you're still only just scraping it together.

Bear in mind that about half of households are headed by women, and many people in this demographic are earning less than the minimum wage, and not everyone gets remittances.

This is my definition of the poverty line - because what is poverty if not being able to satisfy your basic needs?
 

Mirador

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....This is my definition of the poverty line - because what is poverty if not being able to satisfy your basic needs?

Not trying to be contentious here, but are you leaving it up to the individual to decide his/her basic needs and consequently his/her poverty versus non-poverty status? Was Paris Hilton satisfying her basic needs while doing time for parole violation? ;)

By the way, a recent CEPAL study indicate that about 50% of Dominicans are currently living below the poverty line, and almost 20% are considered indigent (extreme poverty).
 

aegap

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chola1978 said:
they where the best of times , they where the worse of time..............
Things are significantly better at all the three general levels. While significantly better, things are still pretty damn bad.
 

dv8

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it amazes me how people get by - we never spend less than 2-3 thousand pesos in one go in a supermercado (2 people and a cat) and our cart is never even full. i see those other carts full to the brim - bill less than 1.000.

certainly people are shopping - for rice, cheapest salami, platanos etc....
 

Chirimoya

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Not trying to be contentious here, but are you leaving it up to the individual to decide his/her basic needs and consequently his/her poverty versus non-poverty status? Was Paris Hilton satisfying her basic needs while doing time for parole violation? ;)
As my mum always used to say "add a raw egg to your shampoo, it does wonders for split hairs".:tired:

By the way, a recent CEPAL study indicate that about 50% of Dominicans are currently living below the poverty line, and almost 20% are considered indigent (extreme poverty).
Yes but what is their definition of the poverty line. The usual benchmark is the UNDP's US$1 a day or less which implies that if you're earning US$2 you're doing OK. US$2 per day is what? US$60 per month - less than RD$2,000.

If you need to be earning RD$18,000 per month to afford the basics, that's over US$18 per day, which the UNDP's logic implies is some sort of a Trump-like existence.

Do they really expect us to accept that all the people earning between US$1 and US$18 per day are not living below the poverty line?

It's very handy for politicians, but that's about it.
 
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BushBaby

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Go to Jumbo off of San Vincente on the weekends, it's jammed packed!
So are the pawn shops! So are the PLD, hand out centres!! You should see the pulga in Puerto Plata on Tuesdays & Wednesdays!! I suspect that 50% of those shopping in the Malls have acquired their wealth by robbing someone else's home - certainly those forced into robbery to feed the family are getting a lot better pickings nowadays!!

Anyone wanting to come see/talk to bario dwellers, if you have a moment during your coming weekend in Sosua to call out & see me, we'll take a trip to one of the local (jammed packed) barrios & you can talk with them there about the cost of a 'Family Basket'.

I DO agree that things COULD be so much better - just stop scamming the lower paid (if paid) & spread the wealth around a bit (like FAIRLY) & you will see a lot more smiling faces & a LOT less apathy! ~ Grahame.
 

NALs

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Mod, please erase my response above. This is a revised version which better addresses the quote below.

Eso es lo que se llama hablar cavalla...Everyone is well aware that things are not better.
Hm... lets see:

1. There are people here saying that their is a visible increase in commercial activity (that's a sign of improvement). Notice, when an economic improvement becomes visible it means that the economy has been on the rise for a while, since visible evidence of economic improvement often lags the evidence presented via statistics by a few months.

This means that rational individuals (particularly economists) have had knowledge of this economic increase for months before it became "visible", but of course debating such with people who need to see something before believing is quite a debate.

2. Then there is a DR1er who claims that its nonsense, because those stores are in wealthy areas.

Of course, he fails to realize (or perhaps he does realizes, but "se hace el chivo loco") the fact that those stores in wealthy areas were not as full in the past and that means that things were not good even for the upper classes and when that's the case then things are really bad. But they are now quite full according to anecdotal evidence being posted here, which is being posted because people are noticing higher levels of commercial activity vs what they noticed in the past few years. That is a sign of improvement.

Chances are that if there are economic improvements in the segment of the economy targeting high income individuals, then there are economic improvements in many businesses targeting lower income groups. Of course, there is much more competition among lower income targeted businesses, but the positive effect is probably there as well.

3. Foreign companies are beginning to make or planning to make inroads into the Dominican market (Ikea, Wendy's, Wal Mart, Home Depot and others), these are businesses that will depend on the local economy and not mostly on foreigners like the resorts. Hm, that's a sign of improvement.

Alas, some people swear things are always bad despite evidence to the contrary.

-NALs:cheeky:
 

aegap

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If the middle class is doing better (i.e. most of those those that shop at Jumbo, PriceMart, Plana Lama, Multicentro etc), than you're almost guaranteed that thing are better for the working class and the poor class too (i.e. those that barter/trade informally, or generally shop at thelocal colmados, etc).
 
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Funnyyale26

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Dec 15, 2006
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Mod, please erase my response above. This is a revised version which better addresses the quote below.


Hm... lets see:

1. There are people here saying that their is a visible increase in commercial activity (that's a sign of improvement). Notice, when an economic improvement becomes visible it means that the economy has been on the rise for a while, since visible evidence of economic improvement often lags the evidence presented via statistics by a few months.

This means that rational individuals (particularly economists) have had knowledge of this economic increase for months before it became "visible", but of course debating such with people who need to see something before believing is quite a debate.

2. Then there is a DR1er who claims that its nonsense, because those stores are in wealthy areas.

Of course, he fails to realize (or perhaps he does realizes, but "se hace el chivo loco") the fact that those stores in wealthy areas were not as full in the past and that means that things were not good even for the upper classes and when that's the case then things are really bad. But they are now quite full according to anecdotal evidence being posted here, which is being posted because people are noticing higher levels of commercial activity vs what they noticed in the past few years. That is a sign of improvement.

Chances are that if there are economic improvements in the segment of the economy targeting high income individuals, then there are economic improvements in many businesses targeting lower income groups. Of course, there is much more competition among lower income targeted businesses, but the positive effect is probably there as well.

3. Foreign companies are beginning to make or planning to make inroads into the Dominican market (Ikea, Wendy's, Wal Mart, Home Depot and others), these are businesses that will depend on the local economy and not mostly on foreigners like the resorts. Hm, that's a sign of improvement.

Alas, some people swear things are always bad despite evidence to the contrary.

-NALs:cheeky:


Ok, the classic economics, Adam Smith, free market, the invisible hand, laissez Faire, etc, etc, etc....

But I don't get it. When I read the newspapers and I talk to my family in the DR, and when I talk to other criollos online everyone tells me that things are now worst than when the bosu was in power.
Problems:
Metro
Corrupcion abierta
Parque del Este/state lands being sold/given to party affiliates
Baninter y los acusados who are probably not going to go to Jail
everything is more expensive now
heliport
Ilegal Haitians
violence/insecurity
national health insurance
less money for education
government oficials auto increasing their salaries
ilegal arms
super tucanos
NO JOBS unless you belong to the elite or have a network
energy company stealing and no providing electricity
Hotel developers, stealing our coasts more and more


A quien le creo?
 

Johy

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Problems:
Metro
Corrupcion abierta
Parque del Este/state lands being sold/given to party affiliates
Baninter y los acusados who are probably not going to go to Jail
everything is more expensive now
heliport
Ilegal Haitians
violence/insecurity
national health insurance
less money for education
government oficials auto increasing their salaries
ilegal arms
super tucanos
NO JOBS unless you belong to the elite or have a network
energy company stealing and no providing electricity
Hotel developers, stealing our coasts more and more


A quien le creo?

I'm a middle class dominican, I can tell you things are better now in the economic sense, there are more jobs also, you just have to look for them, even salarys are better (depends on your skills), I just change jobs for a better offer and I don't belong to the elite or have a network, I just look for it and had patient.

That we have our issues, yes, and that are some that we didn't have in the past, yes:

METRO is an issue, everybody knows it
Corruption, of course
Criminilaty has increase and nobody can't argue it
National Health Insurance (SFS), that's a big issue specially for middle class.

Of course we are far from being great. Leonel is not the greatest president people think, is just we had such a crappy president as Hipolito that anyone can be good compare to him.

We are improving, we dominicans complain because we want to go back to a time that things were easier in every aspect specially for the middle class but less face it, the country is growing specially in population and with the well known globalization we are facing a lot of challenges as a developing country.

We are not that bad and you notice that a lot of foreigners are coming here to live and work and for foreigners I specially make a note on South American people from countries like: Venezuela, Bolivia, Peru, Paraguay, Colombia, etc.

We are just far from perfect.

That's my perspective.

Johy
 

Mirador

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A big financial crisis is looming which could wreak havoc in the macroeconomic stability the country has enjoyed until now. Did you know that the major banks got together late last month and opened a special line of credit for the hundred or so largest Dominican corporations (including Casa de Campo) because they could not cover their June payroll? This information has not been published in the mainstream media.
 

cobraboy

Pro-Bono Demolition Hobbyist
Jul 24, 2004
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A big financial crisis is looming which could wreak havoc in the macroeconomic stability the country has enjoyed until now. Did you know that the major banks got together late last month and opened a special line of credit for the hundred or so largest Dominican corporations (including Casa de Campo) because they could not cover their June payroll? This information has not been published in the mainstream media.
Mirador, it is very common for enterprises that have fluctuations in revenue to have lines of credit. It's like "cash flow insurance". It is especially common for this to happen with fast-growth companies.

And how do several banks open up "a" line of credit for several hundred corporations?

Are you saying these banks don't see the "big looming crisis", but you do?
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Keep to the topic of the thread please.
 
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